Ex-Manager watch: Antonio Conte

[mil1lion]

Taking form out of the equation: we've got a CB that just won the World Cup, a keeper who's won the World Cup, one of the best attackers in the world of the past few years, Brazil's #9, two players who were revelations last year, a DM everyone was clamouring for when he was at Brighton and we've just signed one of Europe's most touted wing backs. Everyone was praising Dier and Hojbjerg last season, and insisted Perisic was a great addition. Sarr and Skipp have proven themselves as good prospects and Emerson's turn has been staggering. The squad really isn't as bad as people insist it is.

It's top 6 quality and we're currently 4th and we finished 4th last season with a poorer squad. I would say there's definitely a good core to build on and push on from here next season. We're overachieving with the squad we have at this moment but that might catch up to us. We're where we should be given the players we have , competing for top 4 again. The likes of Brighton, Newcastle and Fulham are also overachieving while Liverpool and Chelsea are off it this season.

I do think we could be playing more expansive football with these players. I don't see us doing better in the table and in the cups though.

 

[Trix]

Not when he joined they wouldn't have. But after 2 seasons rose and walker went from being blamed for everything to being the best wingbacks in the league. Dembele went from being a makeshift winger to a world class cm. Kane became Kane, Dele become the best young talent in the league. Thats what good managers do.

He was playing CM for a while when we bought him from Fulham and had already destroyed a number of big name CM's. Fergusson at United really wanted him as well but he didn't want to relocate.

 

[Tucker]

Hugo has been a problem for several years now. You think Argentina win the wc without Messi? Or was it down to Romero? Answer the question posed re: Richarlison. Please.

It’s nothing more than revisionism to say Hugo has been a problem for several years. He’s had bad patches here and there but he’s definitely not sub-standard. In many games he’s pulled off save after world class save.

Messi has fuck all to do with wether Romero isn’t a top class defender or not. He still a World Cup winning defender, and Lloris is still a World Cup winning captain. He clearly wasn’t a “problem“ for France in 2018, and didn’t put a foot wrong in the last one either. You don’t lift the world cup as captain being a passenger in the team.

What question regarding Richarlison?

 

[cjbyid]

He was playing CM for a while when we bought him from Fulham and had already destroyed a number of big name CM's. Fergusson at United really wanted him as well but he didn't want to relocate.

Would've been a great signing for utd at the time, thank the lord he liked the London life so.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

You are right; risk is always involved, but the idea of hiring Conte was to mitigate that risk. That's why he costs so much. Barca also thought they were getting close to a sure thing with Coutinho. That's why they paid so much. When it didn't work out, he was considered an expensive flop.

Look at it another way: if I pay 300 quid for dinner, but it's no better than next door, which is charging 30 quid, then I will question the value for money.

If I book a luxury hotel costing several thousands of pounds, but it turns out to be no better than the hotel next door charging a few hundred, I will question the value for money.

If I buy a car that costs me fifty thousand pounds, I will expect a bit more than one which costs me ten thousand pounds.

If I pay nearly a hundred quid for a ticket to watch Spurs, I expect a premium-level experience. However, if I pay a tenner to watch the local amateurs play, my expectations won't be anywhere near as high.

There are no guarantees, but I don't think you can separate cost and value as you suggest.

I agree with you here, but the only thing I’ll add is if we are quantifying his value vs the 15 million it’s not like we’re getting 1.5 million value out of the deal either.

Is he under performing based on what we’d expect from a manager of his calibre? Ofcourse.

However, I think based on all the circumstances and taking the whole picture of this season into account, we’re getting around 80% of the value we’d expect.

If we had won the FA cup and finished in the top 4 (Top 3 would’ve been ideal) then we would be getting exactly what we’re paying for based on all the relevant circumstances.

The problem comes in when our expectations are a PL title or more because we’re paying 15 million a season for him and that’s just not realistic. That’s how it comes across when someone says “we’re paying 15 million a year for this shit”.

 

[The Doc]

It’s nothing more than revisionism to say Hugo has been a problem for several years. He’s had bad patches here and there but he’s definitely not sub-standard. In many games he’s pulled off save after world class save.

Messi has fuck all to do with wether Romero isn’t a top class defender or not. He still a World Cup winning defender, and Lloris is still a World Cup winning captain. He clearly wasn’t a “problem“ for France in 2018, and didn’t put a foot wrong in the last one either. You don’t lift the world cup as captain being a passenger in the team.

What question regarding Richarlison?

It’s in my op. Cba to continue really mate. Circular convos. We will be doing the same thing in a few months when the next chump fails to meet expectations.

 

[Trix]

Would've been a great signing for utd at the time, thank the lord he liked the London life so.

I can't remember the exact details just that he really wanted him and Dembele didn't want to move. I think Fergie has even said that he tried to get him publicly since.

 

[Trix]

That cryptic was very easy to figure out, admittedly because I read somebody say Italian Job and read the thread backwards, The answer came straight to me.

You have to play to the crowd that turns up mate.

 

[Joshua shepherd]

It’s nothing more than revisionism to say Hugo has been a problem for several years. He’s had bad patches here and there but he’s definitely not sub-standard. In many games he’s pulled off save after world class save.

Messi has fuck all to do with wether Romero isn’t a top class defender or not. He still a World Cup winning defender, and Lloris is still a World Cup winning captain. He clearly wasn’t a “problem“ for France in 2018, and didn’t put a foot wrong in the last one either. You don’t lift the world cup as captain being a passenger in the team.

What question regarding Richarlison?

Completely agree, when Hugo signed a new contract there weren't many who would have been disappointed. He has however been very poor this season, at least since returning from the world cup and that has ultimately cost us points.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

Got to be honest, if we fire Conte on Thursday and bring in Poch on Friday or Saturday im going to be pretty disappointed/annoyed. More so then I am already. Not that I want Conte to stay or don't want Poch to come, but it would so clearly be another decision by the club with zero serious thought put into it. I don't think it will happen, but i'm also quite sceptical over our chances in the Milan game even tho they are as bad as us currently.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

You have to play to the crowd that turns up mate.

 

[mil1lion]

We will beat Milan and beat Forest, because that is who we are, infuriatingly inconsistent. I then expect us to lose at Southampton and Everton.

We're actually pretty consistent at the moment. Win at game and lose away.

 

[rossdapep]

Got to be honest, if we fire Conte on Thursday and bring in Poch on Friday or Saturday im going to be pretty disappointed/annoyed. More so then I am already. Not that I want Conte to stay or don't want Poch to come, but it would so clearly be another decision by the club with zero serious thought put into it. I don't think it will happen, but i'm also quite sceptical over our chances in the Milan game even tho they are as bad as us currently.

It's also nonsensical.

Conte hasnt actually been here since I'd say weve pretty much got every one back.

Im not happy with performances and some decisions but normally a Conte team kicks in to gear at this stage of the season.

He will be coming back hopefully revitalised. So why not give him til the end of the season anyway.

 

[mil1lion]

For the talk of 15m a season he has already paid for himself by qualifying for CL and getting us out the group stage. We're on course for more European football next season too. Its just the brand of football is having an impact on how people judge him. If we were in the same position while playing exciting football he wouldn't get nearly us much criticism. Results wise he's earning his money having us punch above our weight a bit.

 

[Tezza1978]

There is a cultish anti-Conte movement. They are literally incapable of rational thought where Conte is concerned, just overly obsessed with how "shit" our football is and wanting a "progressive project manager" in.

Its been a mixed season imo. Some utterly turgid and horrendous football mixed in with good results (Man City, Chelsea). Some great young players being showcased (Sarr and Skipp) and some garbage experienced players too (Perisic, Sanchez.)

I have been particularly unimpressed by Conte's in-game management this season, especially the lack of subs (same as I was under Poch tbf) and his stubbornness around formation and some of his selections have driven me crazy. However, it would be churlish to say he "hasn't improved any players"......Dier was fantastic at the end of last season, Kulu and Bentancur were a revelation, Sarr, Skipp and much maligned Emerson have been brilliant at times this season. As I say, overall a mixed bag.

I don't think a slavish, cultish obsession to any manager is healthy or indeed necessary.

Agree 100% with this. See also: the cult of Potter, or (until yesterday) the untouchable World Class Manager (TM) Ten Haag

 

[Timberwolf]

It wasn't twelve months, though. More like a bad six months, considering the gap between the end of the 18/19 season and the start of 19/20. It was only from match 27 of 18/19 that the wheels came off.

Something felt off from the start of the 18/19 season, though.

We were getting results, but there was a marked drop in performance, and it felt like we were running on fumes. Even results like the 3-0 win against United were actually very disjointed, our football was inconsistent, and there was a genuine sense that the wheels were about to come off even though we were oddly high up in the table until about January.

Just looking back at the results really doesn't tell the whole story.

 

[Styopa]

I agree with you here, but the only thing I’ll add is if we are quantifying his value vs the 15 million it’s not like we’re getting 1.5 million value out of the deal either.

Is he under performing based on what we’d expect from a manager of his calibre? Ofcourse.

However, I think based on all the circumstances and taking the whole picture of this season into account, we’re getting around 80% of the value we’d expect.

If we had won the FA cup and finished in the top 4 (Top 3 would’ve been ideal) then we would be getting exactly what we’re paying for based on all the relevant circumstances.

The problem comes in when our expectations are a PL title or more because we’re paying 15 million a season for him and that’s just not realistic. That’s how it comes across when someone says “we’re paying 15 million a year for this shit”.

Yeah I agree, to an extent.

I don't think anyone here is expecting us to win the Premier League though. I think most of us just want tangible signs of progress. Most of us were behind Conte last year because it seemed like we were making progress. Unfortunately, we seem to have gone massively backwards since the end of last season:

2021/22 season * first ten matches with Nuno

Played	Won	Drawn	Lost				Points

26

14

3

9

45

2022/2023 season:

Played	Won	Drawn	Lost				Points

26

14

3

9

45

 

[Timberwolf]

Got to be honest, if we fire Conte on Thursday and bring in Poch on Friday or Saturday im going to be pretty disappointed/annoyed. More so then I am already. Not that I want Conte to stay or don't want Poch to come, but it would so clearly be another decision by the club with zero serious thought put into it. I don't think it will happen, but i'm also quite sceptical over our chances in the Milan game even tho they are as bad as us currently.

Yeah, it would be thrilling and emotional in one sense, but there would also be a nagging sense that we're bringing in a manager for the wrong reasons.

I was also excited when we brought in Conte and Jose - I wanted to believe they could transfer their success here - but my gut instinct when they were both initially linked was 'terrible fit for Spurs'. It kinda feels the same with Poch. Not a bad manager of course, but are we really thinking this through or simply making another knee-jerk decision because it makes sense superficially and from a PR perspective.

 

[felmani26]

Got to be honest, if we fire Conte on Thursday and bring in Poch on Friday or Saturday im going to be pretty disappointed/annoyed. More so then I am already. Not that I want Conte to stay or don't want Poch to come, but it would so clearly be another decision by the club with zero serious thought put into it. I don't think it will happen, but i'm also quite sceptical over our chances in the Milan game even tho they are as bad as us currently.

I can't see any circumstance why we would pull the trigger early, even if we crash out against Milan - the optics would look terrible!

What'll undoubtedly happen is it becoming the worst kept secret in us not offering Conte a new deal and/or Conte willing to walk away from the club in the summer looking to secure his next employment back in Italy.

 

[Yantino]

Yeah i don't see us sacking him or making any changes until the end of the season/summer. We are effectively treading water until then.