Failure of our pressing game

[jolsnogross]

We've heard versions of this before. Pseudo-intellectual tactics posts seem to be all the rage. Although this one posits that 433 will be far more effective than 4231, the essential difference is that Dembele would play in a "genuine three" and not just ahead of two defensive ones. So the difference between the current malaise and the bright new future is Dembele playing 15 yards further back when we don't have the ball?

A simpler diagnosis would be at we're boring and easy to defend against because we don't attack enough. The manager chose to have just 2 strikers, and has only played them together once - although he did try to do so again at arsenal. Defences are having an easy time of it against us because we're so ponderous on the ball ourselves and have nobody up there as a target or making a nuisance of themselves. Their centre halves have nothing to worry about for long stretches of the game. Did we have a shot on lazio's goal for 85 minutes?

Add to that our young player of the year last year, and deservedly so, is a caricature of a right back this year. And Lennon is largely anonymous as an attacking influence, so we've lost one the best right sides in the league, even though the same two players are there and not been injured. And Lennon won't make it as an inside right forward in a 433 in a million years.

433 or 4231 won't make a blind bit of difference until we get strikers on who cause a bit of havoc and we attack more cohesively. The problem isn't a lack of pressure on opponents' defences when we don't have the ball. It's a lack of pressure on them when we do have it.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

It's a well thought out post, although as someone already pointed out, pressing starts from the front rather than the back.

It's what I was saying yesterday about the midfield 3 when Parker comes back. He's getting on, he's good at keeping the ball, let him marshall in front of the defence and let Sandro and Dembele go hunting. They had the best stats as a pair of winning possession earlier in the season, problem being it was it in our own third of the pitch.

I honestly think, and I argued it last year as well, Parker is vital to how we play. I don't want Dembele further forward or playing behind the striker, I want him on the ball and driving forward from midfield.

 

[only1waddle]

It's a well thought out post, although as someone already pointed out, pressing starts from the front rather than the back.

It's what I was saying yesterday about the midfield 3 when Parker comes back. He's getting on, he's good at keeping the ball, let him marshall in front of the defence and let Sandro and Dembele go hunting. They had the best stats as a pair of winning possession earlier in the season, problem being it was it in our own third of the pitch.

I honestly think, and I argued it last year as well, Parker is vital to how we play. I don't want Dembele further forward or playing behind the striker, I want him on the ball and driving forward from midfield.

Totally agree with you on Parker, when fit he brings stability to the side, if you read the thread on who to sell to QPR it seems people can't wait to sell him.. worrying

 

[EnfieldYiddo]

People like Defoe are letting the system down. Too set in his role as a striker; believing the team should carry him defensively. He has no hunger to press or desire and when he does it's almost for the sentiment as opposed to attempting to win the ball.

Parker,Sandro,Dembele as a midfield would be ok if you had 3 quality goal scoring front 3... Which we don't. As pointed out before we would somehow have to vastly improve dembele's finishing. Anyway i don't see AVB going 4-3-3 through a mixture of fear of a media backlash and lack of suitable personnel

 

[shyfx2k2]

People like Defoe are letting the system down. Too set in his role as a striker; believing the team should carry him defensively. He has no hunger to press or desire and when he does it's almost for the sentiment as opposed to attempting to win the ball.

Parker,Sandro,Dembele as a midfield would be ok if you had 3 quality goal scoring front 3... Which we don't. As pointed out before we would somehow have to vastly improve dembele's finishing. Anyway i don't see AVB going 4-3-3 through a mixture of fear of a media backlash and lack of suitable personnel

I agree about the lack of suitable personnel but disagree about Defoe. He has been one of the better players in terms of pressing (Reading away, winning the ball from Ferdinand for Dempsey's goal at Old Trafford being a couple of examples). Lennon also. We have to learn to press together as a team though.

Moving a team that has played 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 for three years and changing them to a pressing 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 is very difficult. 4-4-2 is a very structured system, every player has their set role, their set position. The LW stays on the left, the right winger stays on the right. Occasionally you'll swap them but they will always stay wide. 4-3-3 is much more fluid, it relies on skill, good awareness and, most important of all, having players that crave the ball, that are constantly moving in search of space. I simply haven't seen enough of this at all this season, young Carroll being the exception and to be fair to him, Sandro who has really tried to get forward and help the attacking side of our game out, even if it isn't natural for him to do so.

I wonder whether AVB should take a leaf out of Rodger's book at Liverpool and look more to the U21's for players. We have some very talented players in that squad who are technically gifted and want the ball. It might be seen as risky but it's all about picking the right players for the right formation at the right time and for me this is where he is falling short.

I'd be very tempted to play a midfield of Sandro, Carroll and Dembele today, Bale and Lennon wide and Defoe up top.

 

[idontgetit]

My only worry with the sort of 433 advocated is that we don't have enough goal scorers to make it work. At least one of the midfield 3 should have goals in them, Dembele whilst scoring in Holland, had a poor time in front of goal for Fulham, the other two have no goal scoring pedigree.

You also need goals from the the side, whilst Bale should be capable of this, he still hasn't managed to add more goals playing further forward in a 4231 than when we played a more 4411 or 442. Lennon will never be a consistent scorer, his shooting is very (pardon the pun) hit or miss. He's more of a scorer of important goals than a reliable scorer.

However, saying all that, anything is worth a try given the disjointed performances of late. We need a spark from somewhere, and as we don't have a classic "No. 10" to play behind the centre froward, maybe 433 would see more goals come from hither unseen sources.

Yeah its the big problem with it! I think we've got the players to score goals though, we're just not getting them in decent goal scoring positions. Too much playing in front of the oppo defence rather than behind it

 

[Chezaspur]

I think we are 3 or 4 players away from a team that could play AVB's preferred 4-3-3. Bale and Lennon do not fit into this formation as they are wingers and not wide forwards and we don't have a creative midfielder.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

I was watching today and our pressing was superb. The real problem with pressing is fitness. It's very hard work, you physically can't keep to that level of intensity for 90 mins. That's why Barcelona are so good at it because they have the ball for 60 minutes of the game so they have the energy stores required to press. It's the same reason our pressing was so effective first half vs UTD and so terrible second half. Fergie changed the make up of his midfield at HT so he could drop Scholes back in and all he did was keep the ball, making it impossible to press with the same intensity. kind of anyway.

 

[jamesc0le]

I was watching today and our pressing was superb. The real problem with pressing is fitness. It's very hard work, you physically can't keep to that level of intensity for 90 mins. That's why Barcelona are so good at it because they have the ball for 60 minutes of the game so they have the energy stores required to press. It's the same reason our pressing was so effective first half vs UTD and so terrible second half. Fergie changed the make up of his midfield at HT so he could drop Scholes back in and all he did was keep the ball, making it impossible to press with the same intensity. kind of anyway.

also we had a problem with westham pushing 2 up today in the 2nd half , and the problem with manure when they came on to us.
in these situations (especially today) i can't help think that switching to 3 at the back is part of the solution.

 

[Flightrisker]

I think we are 3 or 4 players away from a team that could play AVB's preferred 4-3-3. Bale and Lennon do not fit into this formation as they are wingers and not wide forwards and we don't have a creative midfielder.

Bale could play it but more likely from the right.

I would say we are two players away. Moutinho and an inside left winger.

-------------LLORIS
WALKER-KAB-VER-EKOTTO
-------------SANDRO
------MOUTINHO
-----------DEMBELE
---BALE-----------WILLIAN
------------ADE

The big problem with sticking so rigidly to one system is that none of the cover would fill in like for like and would cause the system to stop working again. As much as we should try to build a team the suits the Villas Boas style he equally needs to learn that although he had great success that one season at Porto there are a load of other systems and tactics that he needs to explore and master.

 

[Harry_Snatch]

also we had a problem with westham pushing 2 up today in the 2nd half , and the problem with manure when they came on to us.
in these situations (especially today) i can't help think that switching to 3 at the back is part of the solution.

You thought we had trouble pressing second half? I thought we pressed pretty well the whole game.