Fair play to Commoli

[nidge]

So he's either a bullshitter, a spineless **** or he believed we had a squad to "challenge" the top4.

Which one do you think ? honest question.

Strange that ITK at the time of the meeting with Ramos was saying that Jol during the summer was telling anyone that would listen at the club that we didn't have a squad to challenge for the top 4 and that is was that lack of faith that first put doubts into the boards mind about Jol.

And you obsession was Kanoute is so tiresome. He went years ago, get over it. You are worse than the Jermain Defoe fan club on here when it comes to Kanoute. Is like why you disliked Jol so much because he sold Kanoute?

 

[double0]

Kanoute was a wonderful player and what annoyed people (myself included) who appreciated his talents was the audacity to replace Kanoute with that fat lard MIDO... Ironically a player who also played in the African Nations Cup.

Yes Martin Jol made mistakes ( I was a fan of Jol he was a good manger but wasn't sure he was great ) notably his tactical substitutions in important games and the fitness of players, another was playing Robinson when it was clear he needed to be dropped. Ramos wasted no time in dropping that Fat C*** and improving the fitness of the players, resulting in a trophy.

 

[eddiebailey]

So he's either a bullshitter, a spineless **** or he believed we had a squad to "challenge" the top4.

Which one do you think ? honest question.

He was someone who loved Spurs and loved his job and wanted to keep it. A team player who did his best to work with colleagues and who accepted the constraints imposed on him by the DoF structure. A professional who sought to influence and persuade rather than throwing his toys out of the pram. An ambassador for the club who towed the party line in public while attempting to bring about change behind the scenes.

I had my reservations about Jol as a manager, as I do about Ramos, but I had complete respect for the man.

 

[double0]

As much as I respected Jol he wasn't exactly an angel. Isn't it common knowledge that Jol touted himself to Newcastle while negotiating for a new contract at THFC. As for the DoF argument wasn't Jol himself brought in by a DoF in Frank Arnsen and I'm sure he also worked under one at his previous club in Holland. Therefor the notion of Jol being impeded due to the structure of a system which himself was brought under and has previous experience under IMO doesn't hold weight.

IMO the argument is different for a manager such a Ferguson or Redknapp who've never had such experiences before. Ramos himself shouldn't have any complaints because he had a similar situation at Sevilla and like Jol, knew the conditions before they took the job.

 

[yanno]

On the DoF/coach structure issue, I see three main benefits claimed for it:

i) the coach is separated from the actual contractual/ transfer negotiations, in which he is not an expert and which can be massively time-consuming. This has to be a good thing, and the added benefit is the end of the bung culture in clubs which have a DoF (although in practice, it may merely be the DoF who ends up taking/giving bungs, and in his Chavski DoF role Arnensen was caught on secret camera making promises he shouldn't);

ii) the DoF can target and sign the best young players who are not likely to play in the first-team for several years, but are potentially the future of the club. A good and important role;

iii) ensuring player continuity when the coach leaves or is sacked. This only works if the new coach wants to play the same system as the departing coach.

The problem when Ramos replaced Jol is twofold: firstly, he seems to have identified the same limitations in some of our players as Jol; secondly, he almost certainly wants to play a different type of system to Jol, which requires different types of players. Therefore, having a DoF does nothing to ensure continuity of playing staff.

Plus Levy has already completely undermined the "continuity" idea by publicly stating that if Ramos fails, then Commoli will bear the responsibility for having recommended him. So, if Ramos fails, Commoli will probably get sacked as well. And where's the "continuity" then?

The major problem with the DoF/Coach system occurs when the DoF and board insist on signing a player the coach does not want (usually because the player doesn't fit the coach's system). A classic example is when the Barca DoF and board signed Riquelme against coach van Gaal's wishes. The end result was that van Gaal played Riquelme out of position at Barca and, despite being a world class player, Riquelme failed there.

 

[Spursking]

Comolli has done a great job for us, and he has done some good piece of business for us. I am glad to hear that Ramos gets on well with Comolli, and I think they can have a good cooperation in the future. That is important, and I believe that they can find more good signings this summer.

 

[nidge]

As much as I respected Jol he wasn't exactly an angel. Isn't it common knowledge that Jol touted himself to Newcastle while negotiating for a new contract at THFC. As for the DoF argument wasn't Jol himself brought in by a DoF in Frank Arnsen and I'm sure he also worked under one at his previous club in Holland. Therefor the notion of Jol being impeded due to the structure of a system which himself was brought under and has previous experience under IMO doesn't hold weight.

I believe this point has been discussed many times before, firstly I believe it was Jol that went to the board of his on accord and told them that Newcastle had approached him and not the other way round.

And as for working in the DoF structure that is all well and good when you are the man the DoF picked and this is probably why the Jol/Arnesen combo worked well because Arnesen was the driving force behind bringing Jol to the club in the first place. Then Arnesen headed of to Chelsea and Jol had Comolli inserted above him. Jol not being Comolli's choice made it difficult for the two to interact properly but, now we have supposedely Comolli's choice in Ramos so things should work better.

 

[AngerManagement]

Comolli has done a great job for us, and he has done some good piece of business for us. I am glad to hear that Ramos gets on well with Comolli, and I think they can have a good cooperation in the future. That is important, and I believe that they can find more good signings this summer.

As far as I dont think people should be making a scapegoat of Comolli, it is equally ludicrous to suggest he has done a great job.

He has spent huge sums of money and so far as had average results.

Ok we dont know the in and outs of everything he does and the level of his involvement with numerous issues, but there is little to know evidence to support your claim he has performed great things with us.

 

[MarkinJapan]

So... we'll all agree he's done some good things and some (OK, quite a few) shit things.

I'm extremely excited about the summer and what exactly is going to happen. If someone could gaze into their crystal ball and tell me how many we'll have IN and how many OUT this summer I would be very interested!

Prediction: 8 out, 7 in (don't have go at me, just my fanciful daydreamings!)

 

[nicdic]

I believe this point has been discussed many times before, firstly I believe it was Jol that went to the board of his on accord and told them that Newcastle had approached him and not the other way round.

And as for working in the DoF structure that is all well and good when you are the man the DoF picked and this is probably why the Jol/Arnesen combo worked well because Arnesen was the driving force behind bringing Jol to the club in the first place. Then Arnesen headed of to Chelsea and Jol had Comolli inserted above him. Jol not being Comolli's choice made it difficult for the two to interact properly but, now we have supposedely Comolli's choice in Ramos so things should work better.

Nidge i'm quite sure that it's common knowledge that Jol did tout himself to Newcastle and Ajax whilst contracted to us.

 

[nidge]

Nidge i'm quite sure that it's common knowledge that Jol did tout himself to Newcastle and Ajax whilst contracted to us.

And where exactly did we all get this common knowledge from?

 

[MarkinJapan]

How does your relationship with sporting director Monchi work? What roles do you have when it comes to choosing players?
Ramos: "There's a clear consensus. I tell Monchi the player or type of player I want: fast, tall, left-footed, right- footed, good in the air…and, based on his work and expertise, he says to me: “Look, we have this guy, or this guy.” Between us, we identify the player, or players, who can fit that. But it's not always like that. For example, Freddie Kanoute was a player no one here really knew and I recommended him because I had seen him for Tottenham and West Ham."

Would you like the model to be more like in England, with you controlling the signings? In Spain, at other clubs, the sporting director-coach model has caused lots of problems.
Ramos: "The thing is, the coach doesn't really have time to do both jobs. What you need is trust and professionalism."

http://www.worldsoccer.com/interviews/sevilla_coach_juande_ramos_interview_107105.html

This looks good. Looking at what he has to say here it seems the perfect working situation and seems that Ramos has confidence in it.

You can say what you like about Jol/Commoli and how they worked together and how it compares with Ramos/Commoli, but it seems to come down to Ramos being much more involved/controlling (maybe Jol was too weak or wasn't trusted enough or maybe the club had to go with Ramos' demands when he came in). This is great as we all criticised how Jol was treated when it came to the club's transfers. Knowing we have a hard-arsed manager who's not going to be fucked around when it comes to transfers but at the same time is confident delegating a lot of the role is brilliant.

Now Mr Commoli, show us in the summer that you and Ramos can deliver when it comes to rebuilding for next season and for the future!

COYS!

 

[N10toN17]

This system does not provide continuity, all it provides is Levy another layer of management to hide behind. When the Dof changes the coach will invariably change as well. Arnesen in, his man Jol in. Arnesen out, Comolli in, Jol out, Comollis man in, Ramos. We will now have a major squad change.

Give me the traditional system we have in England any day of the week, it would have saved us time and money and as supporters we'd know where we stand in terms of judging the manager on who he brings into his squad. Levy would be judged on who he appoints directly.

Can anyone see Ferguson or Whinger putting up with this bollox?

Get rid of the Dof and give Ramos total control, go on Daniel, show some guts and grow a pair.

As an aside I don't mind DC hanging around and dealing with the youth set up, they can even leave him his title of Dof, I just don't want him involved with first team matters, leave that to Juande which is as it should be.

 

[MattWilliams]

This system does not provide continuity, all it provides is Levy another layer of management to hide behind. When the Dof changes the coach will invariably change as well. Arnesen in, his man Jol in. Arnesen out, Comolli in, Jol out, Comollis man in, Ramos. We will now have a major squad change.

Give me the traditional system we have in England any day of the week, it would have saved us time and money and as supporters we'd know where we stand in terms of judging the manager on who he brings into his squad. Levy would be judged on who he appoints directly.

Can anyone see Ferguson or Whinger putting up with this bollox?

Get rid of the Dof and give Ramos total control, go on Daniel, show some guts and grow a pair.

As an aside I don't mind DC hanging around and dealing with the youth set up, they can even leave him his title of Dof, I just don't want him involved with first team matters, leave that to Juande which is as it should be.

I tend to agree with you. Have a chief scout by all means but this layering just seems to lead to buck passing and divisions in the ranks.

 

[nickspurs]

Can't say I agree. We've heard managers throughout the Prem say that the job's too big for one person (even if we just define the job as first team affairs). Even Wenger said as much when Dein left.

DL has too many other things to do to get involved in every transfer negotiation and sign off on targets, etc. He's got dozens on operational, financial, commercial and stadium things to deal with each week as Chairman. Makes total sense to have someone between the Chairman and the Manager/Coach so I think a DoF is the right idea.

The challenge of course is to be clear in defining the role and responsibilities. I've no problem with this "evolving role" that we've got for transfer dealings, i.e. Ramos has more say than Jol but there's no reason why it can't work well from here:
- Ramos says what he needs for the first team squad
- Ramos may have a few target ideas too
- DC throws in some ideas and investigates what's do-able, for how much, etc.
- DC or JR may veto each other's idea
- DC, JR and DL agree a short list of targets to pursue
- DL makes a final call if at loggerheads
- DC pursues the agreed options and negotiates
- JR gets on with coaching in the meantime
- DC also buys some young talent for the future through his scouting network

DC's veto (and possibly DL's) is a healthy check and balance mechanism to stop wholesale changes when new managers come in and if Ramos says the current squad is pants then DL needs to be able to push back. That said, Ramos is headstrong and will make his feelings felt and DL will need to compromise this summer for sure.

People say that Ramos will throw his toys out of the pram and walk if he can't buy a new squad. For a man who's worked within the DoF structure before I find this hard to believe. Yes, he'll say what he needs and yes, he'll get some but it will be a compromise after a healthy debate with DC/DL.

 

[N10toN17]

Can't agree nick, I'm not suggesting Ramos gets involved in negotiations, as you say he's enough on his plate, but Levy or whoever he delegates can do it. I think DC could do it, however the crux for me is that he is chasing after players that Ramos has sanctioned, ie the role Ferguson and Whinger currently have, they get the players they want, they don't have players dumped on them.

Finally if this Dof system is the way to go, why haven't the scum or Manusa gone down this route? Are we to believe that Spurs have found a superior method of management structure? When the trophies start piling up and we have United and the Arse falling over themselves to follow our methods, I'll happily concede I was wrong.

 

[SpurSince57]

It seems to me that Levy does do most of the nitty-gritty negotiating. I'm open to correction, but I believe that on the Continent the general practice is that the DoF is handed a budget by the chairman/president and told to get on with the job.

The Scum, the Soccerballs and Pompey do operate a DoF system, only somewhat modified. As managers, 'arry, SAF and Wenger have little or nothing (in 'arry's case) to do with everyday goings-on at the training ground; that's the job of the coaches. Perhaps that's the model we should be looking at. The problem at Spurs seems to be that no-one outside the enchanted circle has any idea who is responsible for what. We talk about Comolli as if his only role is identifying players, which is like saying Levy does nothing but sign the cheques.

We had the typical Bateman cartoon response to the revelation that the first-team squad was stuffing itself on cakes and burgers. The assumption was that this was Jol's fault. But shouldn't this kind of thing fall within the remit of the Sporting Director?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think it is highly likely that the dynamics of the Chairman/DOF/Manager(Coach) will vary from club to club depending on it's circumstances and the personalities involved.

I still don't understand how anyone can say it has failed at spurs, when clearly it hasn't and would probably seem to be the way forward for football in general, and indeed already is the norm for much of football.

Even if Comoli was given the boot, I'm sure it would only be for someone better at the job in the same way levy replaced Jol with Ramos. Someone good for someone better. As with players.

 

[yanno]

As I wrote earlier in this thread, I think the involvement of the DoF rather than the coach in transfer negotiations and in recruiting the best young players is a good thing. The problem is around first team transfers - both in and out - where the notion that the DoF system ensures player continuity is simply rubbish (for the reasons I outlined earlier).

My general position is that the coach should have an absolute veto over first team purchases. But even this is not foolproof. One of our best signings in recent seasons was Michael Carrick from the Spammers. This was clearly a Levy (and maybe Arnensen) deal. It's also clear that Santini didn't want Carrick, as he was happy with Pedro Mendes in CM, and pretty much refused to pick Carrick before he was replaced by Jol.

So, if the coach had had an absolute veto over first team purchases when Santini was our coach, we probably would never have signed Carrick. However, given the peanuts we paid for him, it was a no-brainer for us to sign a player of that quality.

I think management structures are largely irrelevant. What matters is having outstanding people in key positions. And making sure that an £8 million signing is able to play like an £8 million-plus player in the system the coach prefers.

 

[C0YS]

---------------Robbo (PL)-------------
---Hutton(CO)---King (YO)---Woody(CO)--Bale (CO)
---Lennon(AR)---Jenas(LV)--Zoko(CO)---Steed (CO)
--------------BERBA (???BMJ?)----Keane (PL)----------

judging by this Commoli have 5 which is about half of the Main LIne up, yet hes spent nearly 100Mill while the rest of the squad (in the Line up) Barely tops 20Mill est.