How can we balance organic growth and incoming transfers?

[Bus-Conductor]

As the Summer Transfer Wish List thread constantly is hijacked by people with no interest for discussing actual transfer targets, I thought I’d give everybody a nudge and move a part of the debate to a separate thread.


What, if any, is the correct balance between “organic squad growth” (promotions to senior squad from within) and incoming transfers?



On one hand, we have an academy that is hailed by many outsiders, adored by many fans, and invested in by the club. And I do think that we all agree that there are several interesting names with great potential, that some academy graduates probably have a future other places than in Spurs, and that we have seen some great finished products.


Kane is the obvious example of unbelievable youth product. That the club from within should produce such a striker is amazing. Nobody would have predicted that only a couple of seasons ago. Harry Kane makes the entire academy worth it.


But other players haven’t lived up to huge expectations. Last season’s team regulars Mason & Bentaleb had to take s huge step backwards this season. Injured, yes. But regardless of reason, they are two academy graduates who actually took a step back in the pecking order.


To stick with CMs, Tom Carroll has been hailed as the next big thing for literally 5 years. I remember fans were crying out for AVB to start him vs. Chelsea. Away.

Now, I don’t dislike Carroll at all. But in all honesty, to what level has he developed in 5 years? I can see little change in him, and I think he still has the same obvious flaws.


Bringing this together, let’s have a look at the present kids.

In no particular order, Winks, Harrison, Walker-Peters, Oduwa, Onomah, Ball, Carter-Vickers, Edwards, and Pritchard seem to be the kids with the most buzz. But given the various ways of development: Kane being the bomb out of nowhere, Bentaleb stepping back, Carroll plateauing, and I haven’t even mentioned Veljkovic yet who was a big name at one point and left the club and PL in Feb. Who can really say that they know a kid is going to be such a great alternative, there is no need for purchases?


I want to finish this part of the post with pointing out one thing. Yes we do have a great academy. But HOW great? No new academy graduate has seen any substantial amount of game time this season. At all. In the light of ManUtd successfully implementing Rashford, Fosu-Mensah (who is a horny son of a bitch), and maybe Borthwick-Jackson, aren’t they succeeding better in what we want to do?


Let’s look at the incoming transfer side of things


Some stats are just so obvious,that there is only one SC-user left who contests them. From our present most trusted 11 players, 1 is academy graduate. 10 were purchases at one point. The new players in the senior squad this season who made the most impact were all purchased in 2015. No new impactful senior player was an organic addition to the squad.


Looking back over the last years, all our star players except one, was purchased. But, some tremendous failings were purchases, too. I offer Chiriches, Paulinho, Soldado, Holtby, Sigurdsson, Dempsey (who I personally actually enjoyed a lot), Stambouli vs. Modric, Bale, Lloris, Eriksen, Dembele, Vertonghen and Dele Alli. Toss in there Capoue (who I still don’t think was a failed purchase in terms on in-game ability), Wimmer (a great signing), Dier (an even greater signing), Lamela, Walker, Trippier, Rose, Alderweireld, and hopefully Son & N’Jie, I think must ask a simple question, doesn’t our overall transfer strategy actually work? Especially now that we’ve narrowed down and defined our present transfer strategy? The number of Eriksens and Dele Allis outweigh the number of Paulinhos and Soldados.


In my mind, I think the club is doing a great transfer job from an overall perspective.


But they are doing a great academy job, too. I sound biased, I’m not. I must point out that I don’t dislike the youth players. I don’t lack faith in Carter-Vickers et Co. But what is an academy for?

1) Produce players that can be sold on to raise funds for new signings

2) Hopefully, once in a while find a player who becomes a star

3) Supply the senior squad with cheap fringe players

I’m equally proud of all of these outcomes. I think it’s great when a Spurs academy graduate is sold and becomes a steady PL player for another club. I love the fact that parts of the bench are players who love the club and who cost nothing. Isn’t it better to pay a kid 3.000-40.000 a week than to pay a failed signing 80.000 a week on top of 25 millions in transfer fees?


But I do love cunning and smart transfer business most of all. The type of Lloris, Eriksen, Dier, Vertonghen. Not extremely well known. Not outrageously expensive. But goddarn great signings.


Is it not possible to balance a continued search for great singings with on-going academy developments?


I believe it is.


I will finish off with a plea. I don’t feel like an inferior supporter just because I don’t type the initials of Carter-Vickers constantly in reply to possible defensive signings. I don’t think going on and on about how great the kids will be next season makes anybody a truer or purer supporter. So I think it is OK that SC users want to discuss possible transfers targets without the interference of the same 5 names being mentioned as a reason not talk about possible signings.


We all want the best for he club. And this summer, the best for the club is to continue doing great signings and continue promoting kids form within.

Any Spurs-fan should wholeheartedly welcome both approaches.

All fair points, we do play the transfer market better than most and deserve credit for doing so. But we also need to utilise the academy system better. How we ever going to find out if our academy kids can be the next Kane if Pochettino gives a total of about 20 EPL minutes and 4 cup starts to one academy player (Onomah) all season. If Kane was just coming through the academy now, how highly would you fancy his chances ? His first 20 minutes or 4 cup starts for us under previous managers were inauspicious.

I no more want to see a kids played just to meet quotas than I want signings made just to keep fans desire for shiny new purchases happy.

What I would like is the most talented of our academy players, who are being developed with Poch's input and ethos by McDermott and co, to be given chances over and above spending money on players who clearly aren't very much more talented or better prepared for our system, and I would at least like to see more minutes and game time given to academy players in cup competitions.

We don't have to find "one that becomes a star" for an academy player to useful and fulfil a function in footballing and financial terms for this club. The majority of players we buy don't "become stars".

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

All fair points, we do play the transfer market better than most and deserve credit for doing so. But we also need to utilise the academy system better. How we ever going to find out if our academy kids can be the next Kane if Pochettino gives a total of about 20 EPL minutes and 4 cup starts to one academy player (Onomah) all season. If Kane was just coming through the academy now, how highly would you fancy his chances ? His first 20 minutes or 4 cup starts for us under previous managers were inauspicious.

I no more want to see a kids played just to meet quotas than I want signings made just to keep fans desire for shiny new purchases happy.

What I would like is the most talented of our academy players, who are being developed with Poch's input and ethos by McDermott and co, to be given chances over and above spending money on players who clearly aren't very much more talented or better prepared for our system, and I would at least like to see more minutes and game time given to academy players in cup competitions.

We don't have to find "one that becomes a star" for an academy player to useful and fulfil a function in footballing and financial terms for this club. The majority of players we buy don't "become stars".

Kane did not become Kane until he had a few loans. That is where I think we should focus our energy on the youth side - not moaning about how many minutes that get at title-contending squad, but making sure they are getting quality loans to allow them to continue to develop at the right pace.

Truthfully, we should not be counting on many (if any) player moving straight from the Academy to the first team - particularly if we remain in contention for the title, and CL spots. You look at some of the teams that did play a lot of youth this year, and you see a lot of injuries opening up spots to play. We don't want that here - much prefer starters remain healthy, and that youth get loans to clubs where they can compete/and improve at their current levels

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Kane did not become Kane until he had a few loans. That is where I think we should focus our energy on the youth side - not moaning about how many minutes that get at title-contending squad, but making sure they are getting quality loans to allow them to continue to develop at the right pace.

Truthfully, we should not be counting on many (if any) player moving straight from the Academy to the first team - particularly if we remain in contention for the title, and CL spots. You look at some of the teams that did play a lot of youth this year, and you see a lot of injuries opening up spots to play. We don't want that here - much prefer starters remain healthy, and that youth get loans to clubs where they can compete/and improve at their current levels

The loan system is great when it works, but it isn't always the only path to take. Pritchard had more successful loans than Kane had, and he should have been given more of a chance this season. I know he was injured, but we should have kept him as part of the squad and given him time once he'd recovered fitness, he has proven valuable skills that would have been an asset to be able to rely on in cups and bench EPL minutes. He works hard without the ball and he produces end product for others and himself.

 

[cliff jones]

It makes little difference to me whether young players are signed or come through the year groups. So long as we are producing four or five players through both means and continuing to compete then that's great. It also makes me prouder when the youngsters introduced are local, or English, or British.

Avoiding a global mercenary dominated squad who hide when the chips are down is clearly already understood at the top of the club. Not least because that's a sure fire way to squander budget.

As for the optimal time to bring the better young players into the first team, well Poch and his staff have earned our trust based on their management of Alli alone. Over two seasons, Mason, Bentaleb and Carroll have also been given plenty of opportunities.

If Poch signs another acm this summer, then we know he doesn't rate Pritchard. A cb, then will have deduced that ccv is not quite ready, although he did say he was getting closer a few months back. Others, haven't seen enough.

 

[chinaman]

Don't even have to think about it now. Just leave it to Levy and Poch, and everything will come out fine.

 

[spurs9]

All fair points, we do play the transfer market better than most and deserve credit for doing so. But we also need to utilise the academy system better. How we ever going to find out if our academy kids can be the next Kane if Pochettino gives a total of about 20 EPL minutes and 4 cup starts to one academy player (Onomah) all season. If Kane was just coming through the academy now, how highly would you fancy his chances ? His first 20 minutes or 4 cup starts for us under previous managers were inauspicious.

I no more want to see a kids played just to meet quotas than I want signings made just to keep fans desire for shiny new purchases happy.

What I would like is the most talented of our academy players, who are being developed with Poch's input and ethos by McDermott and co, to be given chances over and above spending money on players who clearly aren't very much more talented or better prepared for our system, and I would at least like to see more minutes and game time given to academy players in cup competitions.

We don't have to find "one that becomes a star" for an academy player to useful and fulfil a function in footballing and financial terms for this club. The majority of players we buy don't "become stars".

Here are the Mins each player had played for Spurs by the time they turned 19.

Kane - 291
Bentaleb - 0
Mason - 1
Onomah - 474

In fact lets compare to Man Utd famous class of 92, since they appear to be every pundits bench mark.

Beckham - 1 game (debut 1992, 1 sub app that season)
Giggs - 50 to 60 games (debut 1991, 2 apps that season)
Butt - 3 games (debut 1992, 1 sub app that season)
G.Neville - 3 games (debut 1992, 1 sub app that season)
P.Nevile - 36 games (debut 1994, 3 apps that season)
Scholes - 0 games (debut 1994, 25 mix of starts and sub apps that season). Scholes debut came a couple of months before his 20th birthday.

 

[Bobbins]

Striker and CM/DM are the only areas where it feels like we'd need to buy this summer, both due to lack of quality options already in the squad or coming through.

It feels like Pritchard will hopefully be in the AM group next season, bolstering the numbers along with Chadli, Njie and Son as back-ups to the established trio of Eriksen, Alli and Lamela. Realistically I can't see who we could buy who would drastically improve on any of those first three.

Kane obviously needs a back-up, and a proper one, not a pseudo-striker like Son. I'd love to see Lacazette but think he's probably beyond us. He'd thrive off Lamela's through-balls I'm sure.

Defensively you'd hope CCV would be the one to step up and replace Fazio next year as 4th choice CB - we definitely need the numbers as we got very lucky with Toby staying fit all season. But will Mitchell/Poch find another Wimmer and sign him instead? When and if a player like him can be signed who is demonstrably better than what we've got I don't mind them coming in even in place off a youth product where the youth player is unproven.

CM/DM is the issue for me. Without Dembele it's like not having Modric. So few players are capable of beating a man and moving through the defensive line and when teams shut up shop against us that's what we need to break them down. I feel Mason is definitely good enough in terms of talent but he's being played way too deep - he should be playing nearer the number 10 role and would work better in a 4-3-3 at the tip of the middle 3. Bentaleb seems to have really taken his eye off the ball and let himself down. He's obviously had injury problems but when he has come in his demeanour doesn't seem right. It's a shame as he's super talented and physically got it all, and should be more than capable of standing in for Dier or Dembele, but may simply prove not right for us long term. Carroll I think has reached his ceiling and is probably not quite at the level we need him to be, though I do like him.

We probably need to buy in midfield. But how easy is it to find another player with that line-breaking ability? I don't want us to buy the wrong player for the sake of buying anyone we can get.

Good Championship loans for our youth are key next season, and if we can get one or two PL loans it'll help their development and get them in the shop window. Overall we have a good mix and as long as we stick with making transfers where we either need real top talent to slot straight in to the first 11 (Toby), or due to a gap in the squad we can't realistically fill with a youth player (Wimmer, Trippier, Davies), then we can continue to give the kids a chance in appropriate games as the third choice players for a lot of positions.

One thing I'd like us to do is rotate more carefully and regularly. Rather than making wholesale changes for cup games and forcing the kids to play with a bunch of reserves or in a line up that has barely played together, I'd rather see us make a small number of changes in specific positions in regular games (league and cup) to give youth players the chance to play full matches in a team which closely resembles our starting 11. That would give them more stability and incorporate them faster by playing with players who are already familiar with each other. There's really no reason Pritchard for example couldn't happily slot in to the team in place of one of the three AM's in the odd game, or certainly be a sub option if we've played an hour and are comfortably ahead.

 

[Japhet]

The loan system is great when it works, but it isn't always the only path to take. Pritchard had more successful loans than Kane had, and he should have been given more of a chance this season. I know he was injured, but we should have kept him as part of the squad and given him time once he'd recovered fitness, he has proven valuable skills that would have been an asset to be able to rely on in cups and bench EPL minutes. He works hard without the ball and he produces end product for others and himself.

The unfortunate thing with Pritchard was that his injury lay off coincided with the domestic Cups. I think we would have assessed him in those competitions and the EL but by the time he was fit (ish) we were out of everything except the League.

 

[nicdic]

I think we only need one signing unless we make significant sales.

We need a striker and there is no one close to coming in yet. Harrison could potentially be a 3rd choice, but we need to bring in a quality option as back up for Kane.

I understand the call for a CM to rotate and challenge with Dier/Dembele, but I think we have the answer in the club. Bentaleb with hopefully a full pre season getting fit (is back in training this week), can definitely provide the cover and competition we need. I'm not sure I buy the attitude problem rumours, he's had a very frustrating year with injuries, and hopefully with those behind him, he can get start achieving some of the potential he clearly has. Dier, Dembele, Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll, is potentially one midfielder too many if we want to also be giving minutes to Onomah/Winks in midfield. I'd go as we are, unless we sell two of Bentaleb, Mason, and Carroll.

In AM, we're fully stocked. We essentially already have three new players coming in with Pritchard (injuries and loan), and Son (injury & form) and Clinton (injury) having had seasons that didn't hit the heights we'd have hoped for. Pre season for each of them (which none of them got last season) will help, and Son and Clinton should be settled to London and the club now, should see each of them push on. That gives us a selection of Lamela, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Chadli, Clinton, Pritchard. Onomah has thus far got all his minutes here, though it seems likely hell eventually move deeper. But if you include him, we've already got 8 players for three spots, unless we sell, which for most of them seems unlikely, again I don't see much need to work here.

People have also talked about CB, but I see no need here either. We have three quality centre backs in Alderweireld, Vertonghen, and Wimmer. In January Pochettino talked about Carter-Vickers as a back up, and I see no reason not to leave him the opportunity to be 4th choice. If we get to January and we're two CBs down and he's not performing we can hit the market, or slot Dier in. Buying a young CB to come in and be fourth choice and close of the chances for Carter-Vickers to play would be a shame. Obviously, this is only if we really believe that he has the potential to step up.

Unless there are sales that I don't expect, we need one signing. A striker in. If there are sales, buy, but otherwise I fear we'll be bloating the squad and causing unnecessary blockages for youth players.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

It always depends on the quality of the players coming through the academy. There's a few in there who, if not given a chance next year, should probably be sold. Pritchard, Ball, Ward, Bentaleb and Carroll, they're all at a point where they should be competing heavily for first team starts as they're all further down their development than, say, Onomah, Winks, Carter-Vickers and Walker-Peters.

My gut says that Carroll and Bentaleb will be moved on this summer. Pritchard is competing with the most bloated part of our squad so it depends on how we see Chadli and a Njie (as Eriksen, Lamela, Alli and Son are clearly not going anywhere). Ball and Ward, well they're still the most unknown but are each coming off a very good season and may push next year.

We all know a striker is needed, a good cm too and potentially another AM, regardless of if these players are involved or not, as we need more high quality depth who can realistically push the starters. There's a promising pool of young players but, unless the few I've mentioned are deemed ready, I don't think this is the season to start increasing their involvement.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

The unfortunate thing with Pritchard was that his injury lay off coincided with the domestic Cups. I think we would have assessed him in those competitions and the EL but by the time he was fit (ish) we were out of everything except the League.

Pritchatd was returning to fitness by the end of January. We were still in three competitions by then.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Here are the Mins each player had played for Spurs by the time they turned 19.

Kane - 291
Bentaleb - 0
Mason - 1
Onomah - 474

In fact lets compare to Man Utd famous class of 92, since they appear to be every pundits bench mark.

Beckham - 1 game (debut 1992, 1 sub app that season)
Giggs - 50 to 60 games (debut 1991, 2 apps that season)
Butt - 3 games (debut 1992, 1 sub app that season)
G.Neville - 3 games (debut 1992, 1 sub app that season)
P.Nevile - 36 games (debut 1994, 3 apps that season)
Scholes - 0 games (debut 1994, 25 mix of starts and sub apps that season). Scholes debut came a couple of months before his 20th birthday.

And your conclusion is...?

 

[Japhet]

I think we only need one signing unless we make significant sales.

We need a striker and there is no one close to coming in yet. Harrison could potentially be a 3rd choice, but we need to bring in a quality option as back up for Kane.

I understand the call for a CM to rotate and challenge with Dier/Dembele, but I think we have the answer in the club. Bentaleb with hopefully a full pre season getting fit (is back in training this week), can definitely provide the cover and competition we need. I'm not sure I buy the attitude problem rumours, he's had a very frustrating year with injuries, and hopefully with those behind him, he can get start achieving some of the potential he clearly has. Dier, Dembele, Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll, is potentially one midfielder too many if we want to also be giving minutes to Onomah/Winks in midfield. I'd go as we are, unless we sell two of Bentaleb, Mason, and Carroll.

In AM, we're fully stocked. We essentially already have three new players coming in with Pritchard (injuries and loan), and Son (injury & form) and Clinton (injury) having had seasons that didn't hit the heights we'd have hoped for. Pre season for each of them (which none of them got last season) will help, and Son and Clinton should be settled to London and the club now, should see each of them push on. That gives us a selection of Lamela, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Chadli, Clinton, Pritchard. Onomah has thus far got all his minutes here, though it seems likely hell eventually move deeper. But if you include him, we've already got 8 players for three spots, unless we sell, which for most of them seems unlikely, again I don't see much need to work here.

People have also talked about CB, but I see no need here either. We have three quality centre backs in Alderweireld, Vertonghen, and Wimmer. In January Pochettino talked about Carter-Vickers as a back up, and I see no reason not to leave him the opportunity to be 4th choice. If we get to January and we're two CBs down and he's not performing we can hit the market, or slot Dier in. Buying a young CB to come in and be fourth choice and close of the chances for Carter-Vickers to play would be a shame. Obviously, this is only if we really believe that he has the potential to step up.

Unless there are sales that I don't expect, we need one signing. A striker in. If there are sales, buy, but otherwise I fear we'll be bloating the squad and causing unnecessary blockages for youth players.

We don't have anyone (except possibly Dominic Ball) who can cover Dier. I know what you'll say, but Bentaleb is not that player. Also the thought of getting to January and then trying to shore up positions where the youngsters have failed to step up would be disastrous. We don't buy anyone decent in January. We are in the Champions League and attempting to cement a top 4 place next season and it is a golden opportunity. Signing 1 striker this window would signal to the players already on the books that we lack ambition and we know how that pans out. We need 2 or 3 very good signings to keep an upward trajectory IMO.

 

[hellava_tough]

Interesting to see what the strategy is after Poch has now signed a new contract

Presumably Levy has given Poch assurances in the area of team building?

 

[nicdic]

We don't have anyone (except possibly Dominic Ball) who can cover Dier. I know what you'll say, but Bentaleb is not that player. Also the thought of getting to January and then trying to shore up positions where the youngsters have failed to step up would be disastrous. We don't buy anyone decent in January. We are in the Champions League and attempting to cement a top 4 place next season and it is a golden opportunity. Signing 1 striker this window would signal to the players already on the books that we lack ambition and we know how that pans out. We need 2 or 3 very good signings to keep an upward trajectory IMO.

So in your mind we buy 3 key players? Where do they fit in? Who do we sell?

 

[StartingPrice]

I think we only need one signing unless we make significant sales.

We need a striker and there is no one close to coming in yet. Harrison could potentially be a 3rd choice, but we need to bring in a quality option as back up for Kane.

I understand the call for a CM to rotate and challenge with Dier/Dembele, but I think we have the answer in the club. Bentaleb with hopefully a full pre season getting fit (is back in training this week), can definitely provide the cover and competition we need. I'm not sure I buy the attitude problem rumours, he's had a very frustrating year with injuries, and hopefully with those behind him, he can get start achieving some of the potential he clearly has. Dier, Dembele, Bentaleb, Mason and Carroll, is potentially one midfielder too many if we want to also be giving minutes to Onomah/Winks in midfield. I'd go as we are, unless we sell two of Bentaleb, Mason, and Carroll.

In AM, we're fully stocked. We essentially already have three new players coming in with Pritchard (injuries and loan), and Son (injury & form) and Clinton (injury) having had seasons that didn't hit the heights we'd have hoped for. Pre season for each of them (which none of them got last season) will help, and Son and Clinton should be settled to London and the club now, should see each of them push on. That gives us a selection of Lamela, Alli, Eriksen, Son, Chadli, Clinton, Pritchard. Onomah has thus far got all his minutes here, though it seems likely hell eventually move deeper. But if you include him, we've already got 8 players for three spots, unless we sell, which for most of them seems unlikely, again I don't see much need to work here.

People have also talked about CB, but I see no need here either. We have three quality centre backs in Alderweireld, Vertonghen, and Wimmer. In January Pochettino talked about Carter-Vickers as a back up, and I see no reason not to leave him the opportunity to be 4th choice. If we get to January and we're two CBs down and he's not performing we can hit the market, or slot Dier in. Buying a young CB to come in and be fourth choice and close of the chances for Carter-Vickers to play would be a shame. Obviously, this is only if we really believe that he has the potential to step up.

Unless there are sales that I don't expect, we need one signing. A striker in. If there are sales, buy, but otherwise I fear we'll be bloating the squad and causing unnecessary blockages for youth players.

I agree. I'd go even further and suggest that based on what Poch has said (something some folk don't pay enough attention to) he only wants the occasional big player, capable of coming in and making a difference straight away.

As everyone knows, we need back up/competition/complement to Kane and he has rarely mentioned anyone from the yoots, like Harrison, as being close to coming in. So that is where I would expect us to make a big purchase. I agree, Lacazette is probably not going to happen. I think we'll sign Batshuayi, not ITK, as we've been linked with him for a while, he's definitely available, and has just one or two question marks making him more likely a signing for an up-and-coming team prepared to take a chance than for a Barca/Real.

And @Bobbins - Poch has stressed the group cohesion and team-spirit frequently. he has said he doesn't want to make too many signing that could disturb it. If we are making one big money signing, I would expect it to be a striker, as above. So I am not expecting to see a big money signing at DM. Think we will be more likely looking for an understudy for Dier than an improvement. A while ago, on the Under-21's thread, I asked those in the know about Luke Amos for this role. Whenever I've seen him play DM he has an almost uncanny ability to break play up, his ability to anticipate where to intercept seemed exceptional. Someone, Trix maybe, said Poch is aware of him for this role and rates him (I think -sorry is misquoting). Then we have Dominic Ball and Grant Ward who are both centre-halves like Dier, who have both played DM on loan. So, the question for me is will Poch consider one of these three to be up to understudying Dier by August, or will he buy an exceptional young talent for the role.

At midfield, in general, I agree with Nic, @Bus-Conductor and others - think his sloppy pass at OT, his injury and his playing up (as some saw it) over his contract have caused some to cast Bentaleb in a villainous role I don't believe he deserves. Between him, Mason, Carroll (yeah, I know, some just don't rate him...but some didn't rate Modders either ), Winks, Onomah and Pritchard, and possibly Edwards too, are all players Poch will look to accommodate if he can. When added to the likely improvement and involvement from Son and N'Jie and I just can't see any pressing need to splash the cash unless it is with the certainty of improving the sqad.

What I would expect, based on our squad attributes, needs, supposed war chest and Poch's comments, is one big money purchase (a striker) and a couple of very highly rated upcoming talent purchases (dare I say, Dele Alli-like). Really not expecting to see a massed influx...and don't think we need one, or would benefit from it, either)

 

[Japhet]

So in your mind we buy 3 key players? Where do they fit in? Who do we sell?

We need player who can rotate as opposed to replace. We won't be fielding weakened teams in the Champions League and we don't have enough quality in depth to compete there and in the EPL. We could lose 2 of Mason, Carroll and Bentaleb and replace with one quality CM. One of our attacking mids could be sold and I'd say Chadli is most likely to be upgraded but not essential. 2nd striker to share the workload with Kane is obvious. Next season is an incredible opportunity to consolidate what we've achieved this time. Last time we made CL we didn't capitalise on the situation and our star players were gone overnight.

 

[cliff jones]

To those saying we already have four players to fill the two dm slots I'd say

I love the Beast but can he play weekend / midweek cl / weekend consistently? He's a lump, when he goes over on an ankle he does more damage than others. Also does calf groin pulls when tiring.

Dier will always accumulate loads of yellows or worse, he will be suspended

On to the cover

Carroll, nah, lacks presence, can't tackle or head, sell while we can

Mason on a good day can step up but is prone to lapses in concentration

Bentaleb is anybody's guess, loads of potential but suffers from the same loose pass / fails to see danger syndrome as Mason

Is this lot really enough to get us through another 60 games, hopefully landing a pot or qualifying again for the cl??
I say no, we need Wanyama or similar to vaguely replicate young Eric.

People shouting out Winks, Onomah, Ball, Ward do so in hope enhanced by Kane's miracle. Nothing more.

 

[mpickard2087]

I suspect we will definitely have to keep buying central midfielders. Poch's tactic and most 4-2-3-1/cm2 tactic is demanding of those playing in the middle of the park. They have to be able to break up play, cover a lot of ground, and help build attacks, and does usually prioritise defensive abilities of those players. The last five years (and more) though virtually every youth match, particularly U21 matches, I saw had us playing a 4-3-3 and an emphasis on technical ability and playing football rather than size and dominating defensively, and the extra man helps compensate for this.

So you look at the options now coming through, and they reflect this and I think they'll struggle to play an integral part. Carroll never has and never will be a cm2 player. Mason tries, on good days can, but it doesn't get the best out of him. Bentaleb can, but seems like he's pretty much done for. Winks I like, is a maybe for me given the demands of the position. Onomah I think they see as playing further forward. Veljkovic has gone, possibly due to lack of mobility/presence. Ball is a centre back and also not mobile enough in the bits I have seen of him to play in a cm2, could get away with it just sitting in a cm3... And it goes on. Someone like Amos might get a look in but I don't see any great hope until you get to TOB and maybe Kirby. I think we will have to wait to see our young midfielders 'reconfigured' in Poch's image... But then how long is he here and what does a future manager do?

 

[StartingPrice]

I suspect we will definitely have to keep buying central midfielders. Poch's tactic and most 4-2-3-1/cm2 tactic is demanding of those playing in the middle of the park. They have to be able to break up play, cover a lot of ground, and help build attacks, and does usually prioritise defensive abilities of those players. The last five years (and more) though virtually every youth match, particularly U21 matches, had us playing a 4-3-3 and an emphasis on technical ability and playing football rather than size and dominating defensively, and the extra man helps compensate for this.

So you look at the options now coming through, and they reflect this and I think they'll struggle to play an integral part. Carroll never has and never will be a cm2 player. Mason tries, on good days can, but it doesn't get the best out of him. Bentaleb can, but seems like he's pretty much done for. Winks I like, is a maybe for me given the demands of the position. Onomah I think they see as playing further forward. Veljkovic has gone, possibly due to lack of mobility/presence. Ball is a centre back and also not mobile enough in the bits I have seen of him to play in a cm2, could get away with it just sitting in a cm3... And it goes on. Someone like Amos might get a look in but I don't see any great hope until you get to TOB and maybe Kirby. I think we will have to wait to see our young midfielders 'reconfigured' in Poch's image... But then how long is he here and what does a future manager do?

In regard to buying in central midfielders, I think there are two separate issues: Do we need to buy any? And, if we do, I we more likely to make a big money purchase or a young exciting talent to understudy Dier.

Your argument is coherent and there are parts of it I agree with. We have been focused on a 4-3-3 with emphasis on technical ability and playing football rather than size and dominating defensively - but that doesn't mean the two will always be anathema. I mentioned Amos, I also mentioned that someone with more privvy information than me (think it was Trix) said Poch's likes him. I'm not saying he would be ready to understudy Dier by August - I am asking the question. And answering that is one for Poch who sees the players at ground level regularly in training. I'm not having a go at you, it's more generically, but we shouldn't forget that a large proportion of our fan-base nearly plutzed when the realisation hit them that Poch really was going to try Dier at DM. Poch was right, they were wrong. So I would ask again, Dominic Ball and Grant Ward are young centre-halves who have featured at DM on loan, and Luke Amos has (IMHO) exceptional anticipatory play breaking up abilities. IMHO Poch may well be looking at those three, and if he doesn't consider any of them as suitable or ready to understudy Dier, I suspect we will buy a talented kid, rather than some big money like Witzel. Largely because Poch has said he isn't really wanting to make more than one big money 1st team ready purchase - and we all know that is likely to be a striker.

I don't buy into the notion that Bentaleb is done for TBH. I also don't think mason is automatically done for. Winks, I'm not sure on...other than that ITK, if I remember correctly, has said Poch rates him very highly. I'm not sure on Onomah, either - he'll really have his work cut out moving further forward, but I'm not sure he has the physicality or urgency to take a Dembélé role. Carroll could leave, buy is a player I think is being underrated due to preconceptions about size - and like you feel with Onomah, I think he could move forward and offer competition (for which see his previous history at youth level).

I know I am in the minority in saying this, but I take Poch's talk about building a legacy at this club very seriously...so I'm not looking at who might come in after him, or what they might want.

I'll say it again, based on what Poch has said, I think we will make one big money purchase for a player capable of competing seriously for the 1st team (and I think it will be Batshuayi), prospectively at £25 million+; and two very highly rated young players (no idea who), at the £10 million+ level, one or both of whom might be central midfielders, depending on how Poch views what we already have. And that would take us relatively close to the £60 million the papers are talking about. I also doubt we will be getting rid of players willy-nilly