If we end up 6th next season with the same number of points, would you want Poch to stay or go?

[pook]

hmmm ... how can I answer this question when I don't have the most substantive criteria?

... how did we do in the cups?

 

[thinktank]

Wish I had your confidence.

Could be a very interesting season with Dele Alli coming in, and hopefully Pritchard coming back. If they fit well into the team and adapt to the Prem, I'd be more than happy if it looks like things are starting to come together, regardless of our final league position.

Unfortunately he hasn't covered himself in glory this season.

Poch's strong minded and knew this season was one of exploration/discovery irt the players that were already here. Many have been on trial.

I don't think he's too hung up on instant glory, he sees the bigger picture - youth, vibrancy, energy and dynamism.

He's an ideal manager for Levy, the thing Levy has to get right is not being unrealistic irt our rejects this summer. We need to shift them!

 

[ultimateloner]

hmmm ... how can I answer this question when I don't have the most substantive criteria?

... how did we do in the cups?

assume we win no cups like this year.

 

[RButch]

There are so many variables in between now and the end of next season. Your options have given me no insight into how to season went. Did we win a cup? Did we come 6th on goal difference? Were we unlucky? Did we start well? End well? Did we fall apart? What signings did we make? Did we play progressive, fast flowing football with high press and only lost games because of errors and inexperience? Did we have any major injury setbacks?

Apologies, but what a wank poll to do.

 

[Monkey Bastard Hands]

Ugh. Look at who we're competing against:

Chelsea. City. United. Arsenal. Liverpool.

All five of those clubs have bigger stadiums, higher revenues and therefore can afford more on wages. By finishing 6th we are exactly where we should be and anything above that is a bonus. Am I disappointed with this season? Yes. We could and should have done better and have dropped points against inferior opposition but that's the nature of the league. If we finish next season in 6th and on the same amount of points, will I be disappointed again? Yes. But surprised? No.

We need to get over this unrealistic expectation that we are a top 4 club. We're not and won't be until we have our new stadium.

 

[Nebby]

Depends on what happens this summer. But if we go into the new season with more or less the same quality within the squad, then 6th or 7th would be about right. We are nowhere near top four quality.

 

[striebs]

Poch is a nice guy but it is not in the clubs interests or Poch's career interests to persist with something which is clearly not working .

He should move with our blessing to get his career back on track .

The alternative is that the football remains virtually unwatchable and the fans start calling for his head towards the end of September .

 

[SpursOldBoy]

I've voted stay. But it depends on the type of performance that the team puts in, plus he needs to be backed by Levy thus summer and allowed to bring in the players that suit his system. The grass is not always greener on the other side - we keep switching managers and need consistency at the top of the club if we are to expect consistency on the field.

I was having a conversation with a mate the other day about who he's like to replace his clubs manager when he finally goes, and we decided that there are fewer and fewer options out there once you take the bigger names out of the list.

Mourinho
Ancellotti
Van Gaal

Then who? The rest are a gamble, or are comfortable where they are.

Klopp is under a shadow after the results this season. De Boer is an option, I suppose, but remains untested as a manager outside Dutch football.

 

[IamCelestial]

Go. We bring in managers (and players) to make us better - not stay on par.

 

[Archibald&Crooks]

Go. We bring in managers (and players) to make us better - not stay on par.

And one day it might work

 

[SFCS]

I think he should stay despite the recent return to the disappointing early season form. Being honest, I'd kick him out if by some miracle we could get Ancelotti or Klopp though.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Go. We bring in managers (and players) to make us better - not stay on par.

So do the teams above us. And they can bring in better more established players and managers.

Who do we deserve to finish above? Liverpool - the team that finished second last season? Man city? Man U?

We've consistently fielded the youngest team in the league each weekend with an eye on building and progressing together as a unit. We're only 1 year into that project. I don't get the expectation that we should be 5th or even 4th this season when the teams above us are a couple years or more into there own projects with better and more established managers and squads. And that's without mentioning the huge gulf in resources.

A bit of fucking patience please.

 

[olliec]

Look what we did in the Arsenal and Chelsea game. I think Poch is certainly the man to take us forward. To win like we did in style with the crop of players we have is impressive. We need a clean out this summer. It seems some of these players want to put on a show for the big games only while we get rolled over by the more inferior teams. Season is done and we all knew from the beginning that realistically this was our target as did Poch. Experimental team, but a great chance to explore youth which Poch did exceptionally well. Likeable man, good qualities about him.

 

[ultimateloner]

There are so many variables in between now and the end of next season. Your options have given me no insight into how to season went. Did we win a cup? Did we come 6th on goal difference? Were we unlucky? Did we start well? End well? Did we fall apart? What signings did we make? Did we play progressive, fast flowing football with high press and only lost games because of errors and inexperience? Did we have any major injury setbacks?

Apologies, but what a wank poll to do.

Don't vote then. I've already said assume no major squad overhaul and no cup (same thing as this year).
The purpose of the poll is to force a decision based purely on objective measurable benchmark = league result.
If you can't make a decision on that basis then dont.

 

[IamCelestial]

So do the teams above us. And they can bring in better more established players and managers.

Who do we deserve to finish above? Liverpool - the team that finished second last season? Man city? Man U?

We've consistently fielded the youngest team in the league each weekend with an eye on building and progressing together as a unit. We're only 1 year into that project. I don't get the expectation that we should be 5th or even 4th this season when the teams above us are a couple years or more into there own projects with better and more established managers and squads. And that's without mentioning the huge gulf in resources.

A bit of fucking patience please.

Oh I agree that we should be patient. I don't dispute the things you said. 2 years not enough? 3, 4, 5? Please, give the number that you think is right.

Yes, all teams around improve - as do we. I've never disputed that. However, the only way to move forward is to either massively outspend them (to compensate for the gap) or to have some manager who can, through his managerial/tactical/strategic acumen, compensate this money (transfer fees & wages) gap for at least a season.

Is this hard? Of course. But it has happened before (Arry). It even happened this season - with Koeman. I see absolutely no point in keeping a manager who cannot over-perform. The question is only how long does it take for us to judge whether he can over-perform or not. And I think that 2 years is enough. However, I am willing to debate another number - if you say that 2 years (with 2 pre-seasons) is not enough. But please, let's first get the priorities straight - over-performance is what we should be looking for. Not staying on par with last season(s).

So, yes, A&C, one day it might work - we might find our Mourinho/Wenger. That, or a rich Arab/Russian has to buy the club - and this will have its own consequences. Even if that happens, the level of expectations will change, but the requirement for over-performance will remain.

p.s. Just to clarify - I like Pochettino a lot as a person, I feel great when I don't have to cringe every time our manager opens his mouth (a la Tim). I really hope that he will be (much) better next season and I wish he will turn out to be a long-term solution for us. All I am saying is that we have to know (and set) the point in time, at which we pull the plug.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Oh I agree that we should be patient. I don't dispute the things you said. 2 years not enough? 3, 4, 5? Please, give the number that you think is right.

Yes, all teams around improve - as do we. I've never disputed that. However, the only way to move forward is to either massively outspend them (to compensate for the gap) or to have some manager who can, through his managerial/tactical/strategic acumen, compensate this money (transfer fees & wages) gap for at least a season.

Is this hard? Of course. But it has happened before (Arry). It even happened this season - with Koeman. I see absolutely no point in keeping a manager who cannot over-perform. The question is only how long does it take for us to judge whether he can over-perform or not. And I think that 2 years is enough. However, I am willing to debate another number - if you say that 2 years (with 2 pre-seasons) is not enough. But please, let's first get the priorities straight - over-performance is what we should be looking for. Not staying on par with last season(s).

So, yes, A&C, one day it might work - we might find our Mourinho/Wenger. That, or a rich Arab/Russian has to buy the club - and this will have its own consequences. Even if that happens, the level of expectations will change, but the requirement for over-performance will remain.

p.s. Just to clarify - I like Pochettino a lot as a person, I feel great when I don't have to cringe every time our manager opens his mouth (a la Tim). I really hope that he will be (much) better next season and I wish he will turn out to be a long-term solution for us. All I am saying is that we have to know (and set) the point in time, at which we pull the plug.

I think 2 seasons is the right amount time to judge progress. Year one is all about assessment of the current playing staff and identifying ways of making progress. Year two should be about implementation and hopefully progress. However, I still believe it will be hugely difficult to finish higher in the table without one of the teams above us imploding massively.

 

[IamCelestial]

I think 2 seasons is the right amount time to judge progress. Year one is all about assessment of the current playing staff and identifying ways of making progress. Year two should be about implementation and hopefully progress. However, I still believe it will be hugely difficult to finish higher in the table without one of the teams above us imploding massively.

OK, so we agree on the time Regarding what "progress" is - I wrote that using the premise of the OP that progress is (best?) judged by the league position. I actually agree with that. But sure - there are other factors, it's just that they are so difficult to quantify. Also, I didn't include cup runs - as they were not included in the question.


The fact is that our owners do provide the infrastructure for managers to finish at least 5-th. I think the fact that we finish consistently around 5-th place under different managers in the last (7-8?) years is evidence for this point. It's not as if we had some guy who had consistently made us look better than we are.

And teams above us always slip up. Think about it - even now (with our very inconsistent form throughout the season) we are "only" 10 points behind Manure. I say "only", because if you look at our games in the league throughout the year, I am sure you could find at least 4 games that "we should have won". We just have to have a guy in charge, who makes us slip less than them next time. Hopefully, that guy will be Poch.

 

[Tom Pops]

Go. We bring in managers (and players) to make us better - not stay on par.

Err... Well that plan isn't really working then is it.

 

[IamCelestial]

Err... Well that plan isn't really working then is it.

Are you questioning the plan or its execution?

 

[Imnotacticalgenius]

If im Levy, i will let MoPo to at least see out his contract and get some players (especially in the spine of the team) that is highly suitable to MoPo footballing believes. The short changing does not help at all....Also getting the next head coach and what footballing believe he has is highly crucial; and to me one that Spurs and Levy has failed so far. To me this is the main thing, why Spurs are always seemingly in "transition" See this

Jol to Ramos (180 degrees different in footballing believes)
Ramos to Redknapp (180 degrees different in footballing believes)
Redknapp to AVB (180 degrees different in footballing believes)
AVB to TS (180 degrees different in footballing believes, albeit a short term)
TS to MoPo (180 degrees different in footballing believes)

Worst still if the players that are bought are not exactly the first/second choice of the head coach, but that of the Board of Directors.....So some players will not be a fit to any of the "footballing believes". This is on top of the confusion of total change in footballing believes and plays/system, that came about from one coach to another.....

So if Spurs were to continue to rise and have the "transition shorten", the next head coach appointed after MoPo (after he has been given really ample time), should have similar footballing believes to that of MoPo.