Jermaine Jenas

[liamc23]

He creates more and scores more than any of our other central midfielders. Covers the most ground makes the most passes and with a success rate of about 83% he also put in more tackles per game than any other player in our team at 3.65 tackles per game.

To be fair at the moment thats not a hard thing seeing that our midfield created fuck all last season, getting something like 5 assists from the midfield is a complete joke.

But i agree definately one our better midfielders, people need to realise he's never going to be the Gerrard that we all want him to be.

 

[dannythomas]

To be fair at the moment thats not a hard thing seeing that our midfield created fuck all last season, getting something like 5 assists from the midfield is a complete joke.

But i agree definately one our better midfielders, people need to realise he's never going to be the Gerrard that we all want him to be.

In the absence of a truly creative midfielder we need the players who can do the simple things well ( feeding our wide players ) and cover the box to box area. Our most solid pair is IMO Jenas and Tainio and if we were to sign say SWP then a midfield of SWP- Jenas- Tainio- Lennon ( or even Lennon- jenas- Tainio- Bale )would be fine by me. Jenas and Tainio are both more than capable of winning enough ball to feed the 2 wingers and getting forward to add the odd goal or two of their own. On the other hand Zokora does not tackle , can't pass accurately and never scores. Hudd is our best passer but never wins the ball and is too immobile. Can't comment on Prince and I can't see us buying Sneijder ( unfortunately ). Selling either JJ or TT would be madness.

 

[joey55]

In the absence of a truly creative midfielder we need the players who can do the simple things well ( feeding our wide players ) and cover the box to box area. Our most solid pair is IMO Jenas and Tainio and if we were to sign say SWP then a midfield of SWP- Jenas- Tainio- Lennon ( or even Lennon- jenas- Tainio- Bale )would be fine by me. Jenas and Tainio are both more than capable of winning enough ball to feed the 2 wingers and getting forward to add the odd goal or two of their own. On the other hand Zokora does not tackle , can't pass accurately and never scores. Hudd is our best passer but never wins the ball and is too immobile. Can't comment on Prince and I can't see us buying Sneijder ( unfortunately ). Selling either JJ or TT would be madness.

TT is scandalously under valued by our fans. I think it is becasue his playing style is so unattractive. Scrappers like TT are there more for how they can effect the oppositions game, than how they effect our game and therefore it is harder for fans to appreciate them. I'm fairly sure, unless we bring in someone else, that if we sign a player to play on the left next season, then TT will partner JJ in the middle. I've seen many teams for next season posted and not one has TT in it. It makes me wonder how well our fans actually know our coach. If we sign a wide man for the left, I'd be shocked not to see TT in the starting line up. Jol always includes him when he's fit, yet most people seem to consider him a squad player.

 

[Pinto]

TT is scandalously under valued by our fans. I think it is becasue his playing style is so unattractive. Scrappers like TT are there more for how they can effect the oppositions game, than how they effect our game and therefore it is harder for fans to appreciate them. I'm fairly sure, unless we bring in someone else, that if we sign a player to play on the left next season, then TT will partner JJ in the middle. I've seen many teams for next season posted and not one has TT in it. It makes me wonder how well our fans actually know our coach. If we sign a wide man for the left, I'd be shocked not to see TT in the starting line up. Jol always includes him when he's fit, yet most people seem to consider him a squad player.

That is the main problem with TT though isn't it. He is always hurt. You can't go a full month with him in our side because he will be injuried. That is why Zokora gets the nod because after two weeks Tainio will be hurt for 2-3 weeks come back for a game or two and get hurt again. Hard for anyone to put him in their squad when he just can't stay healthy.

Tainio only played 20 league games and that says something as he plays anytime he is even close to healthy so he missed just about half our Prem season with injuries so that should really prove my point. Maybe I should blame Jol for playing him too quickly after injury but he is still very injury prone and IMO can't be counted on.

 

[joey55]

That is the main problem with TT though isn't it. He is always hurt. You can't go a full month with him in our side because he will be injuried. That is why Zokora gets the nod because after two weeks Tainio will be hurt for 2-3 weeks come back for a game or two and get hurt again. Hard for anyone to put him in their squad when he just can't stay healthy.

Tainio only played 20 league games and that says something as he plays anytime he is even close to healthy so he missed just about half our Prem season with injuries so that should really prove my point. Maybe I should blame Jol for playing him too quickly after injury but he is still very injury prone and IMO can't be counted on.

You're right, he definitely can't be counted on, but that isn't a reason for people not to rate his contribution. I don't think people aren't putting him in their teams for injury reasons, as the teams are only an example of what they'd play if everyone was fit. Also I wouldn't blame Jol for his injury record, as apparently he was always injured at Auxerre as well.

 

[Legend10]

From Eurosport, but they don't have them up anymore, as they were linked to their fantasy football which has finished. However, they are still available here (in previous posts). I've got stats for ball winning, passes and number of times each of our players are on the ball (midfielders only). I've also got the Opta stats 9but they could still be up on SS website.

These are the average possessions (number of times a player is on the ball) for our players:

Hudd 60.7
TT 58.6
JJ 58.5
Ghaly 55.9
Zokora 55.8
Steed 55.7
Lennon 41.3

Wins the ball

TT 9.8
Steed 9.2
Ghaly 8.6
JJ 8.4
Zokora 8.2
Hudd 5.9
Lennon 5.4

So whilst JJ isn't lazy, these show he could involve himself more. With his atheltic abilty, he should be winning the ball more than anyone but Zokora, and he should be on the ball more than anyone but Zokora. The DM should really be the busiest player on the park in a 442 formation, in that he shouldbe the one who linke defence and attack (passes the most) and obviously in virtually every team the Dm will make the most tackles. For example last year Carrick was top of virtually all our stat tables, bar shooting and scoring.

This is a very interesting post and the numbers are fascinating and they clearly demonstrate even further weaknesses in Zokoras game.

As for JJ's numbers I am not surprised that he doesn't get on the ball as much as some people would like and neither am I surprised that he doesn't win the ball as much as others. The reason for this is the amount of third man runs JJ makes.

To truly understand JJ's game we should look not at the Arse and Everton goals but more at the home and away goals against Sheff Utd and the 2 yard miss against Liverpool. Both the Sheff Utd goals and the Pool miss were from third man runs were JJ Ignores the build up in play to get beyond his strikers. The amount of non productive runs made or started to get these goals and chances is huge. JJ looks for opportunities to make these deep runs and therefore takes himself out of areas where he could easily get on the ball which would increase his possesion stats.

As for ball winning this is again associated with his running as he has further to retreat to win the ball, however if the stats could show where our players won the ball then I believe that JJ's would show that he wins the ball further up the pitch than any of our other midfield players which is vitally important.

Unlike JJ there are no positive reasons for Zokora's numbers.

 

[dannythomas]

You're right, he definitely can't be counted on, but that isn't a reason for people not to rate his contribution. I don't think people aren't putting him in their teams for injury reasons, as the teams are only an example of what they'd play if everyone was fit. Also I wouldn't blame Jol for his injury record, as apparently he was always injured at Auxerre as well.

Exactly. Otherwise we should not put Ledley King in our first team selection since he is injured far more than TT

 

[Zapsta]

Most of the time Tainio started, he did so on the left wing. For those who haven't noticed: we don't have a left winger.

 

[joey55]

This is a very interesting post and the numbers are fascinating and they clearly demonstrate even further weaknesses in Zokoras game.

As for JJ's numbers I am not surprised that he doesn't get on the ball as much as some people would like and neither am I surprised that he doesn't win the ball as much as others. The reason for this is the amount of third man runs JJ makes.

To truly understand JJ's game we should look not at the Arse and Everton goals but more at the home and away goals against Sheff Utd and the 2 yard miss against Liverpool. Both the Sheff Utd goals and the Pool miss were from third man runs were JJ Ignores the build up in play to get beyond his strikers. The amount of non productive runs made or started to get these goals and chances is huge. JJ looks for opportunities to make these deep runs and therefore takes himself out of areas where he could easily get on the ball which would increase his possesion stats.

As for ball winning this is again associated with his running as he has further to retreat to win the ball, however if the stats could show where our players won the ball then I believe that JJ's would show that he wins the ball further up the pitch than any of our other midfield players which is vitally important.

Unlike JJ there are no positive reasons for Zokora's numbers.

This year i've saved both the Eurosport stats (midfielders only unfortunately) and the Opta stats. I wish I'd kept last years to show people just how vital Carrick was to us. He was top of everything by miles. I know some people don't like stats, but not even the most anti stats person can deny that when you lose the player who made the most assists, most passes (by a huge amount), best ball winner (by a huge amount), best tackler (by a huge amount) and most possessions per game (by a huge amount) and replace him with a player like Zokora, it is going to have a catastrophic effect on the team. I think the player that has effected most is JJ, as he has to spread himself so thin. He's come on so much this season, but I think it has gone largelly unnotticed. Had he been playing with Carrick i'm sure he'd have scored 10+ goals and maybe been given more recognition.

 

[joey55]

Most of the time Tainio started, he did so on the left wing. For those who haven't noticed: we don't have a left winger.

Less so this season, it was only in the last few games he played there instead of Steed. For the middle part of the season he played in the middle with the Hudd and then Zokora.

 

[stemark44]

Jenas closes opponents down more than any other midfield player we have,he does'nt need to make tackles,he forces them to go backwards or makes them think quicker which leads to passing errors.
There are lots of stats than cannot be measured and if the stats for Jenas don't look too hot,what do the stats for Lennon prove.
Never in a position to recieve a pass and never tracks back to tackle? Is he even on the pitch?

 

[Legend10]

Jenas closes opponents down more than any other midfield player we have,he does'nt need to make tackles,he forces them to go backwards or makes them think quicker which leads to passing errors.
There are lots of stats than cannot be measured and if the stats for Jenas don't look too hot,what do the stats for Lennon prove.
Never in a position to recieve a pass and never tracks back to tackle? Is he even on the pitch?

Or we don't posses players (DM) with the passing range to find him.

 

[Legend10]

This year i've saved both the Eurosport stats (midfielders only unfortunately) and the Opta stats. I wish I'd kept last years to show people just how vital Carrick was to us. He was top of everything by miles. I know some people don't like stats, but not even the most anti stats person can deny that when you lose the player who made the most assists, most passes (by a huge amount), best ball winner (by a huge amount), best tackler (by a huge amount) and most possessions per game (by a huge amount) and replace him with a player like Zokora, it is going to have a catastrophic effect on the team. I think the player that has effected most is JJ, as he has to spread himself so thin. He's come on so much this season, but I think it has gone largelly unnotticed. Had he been playing with Carrick i'm sure he'd have scored 10+ goals and maybe been given more recognition.

JJ & Lennon.

Lennon's performances last season were hugely affected by the loss of Carrick's passing range especially when his replacement hit about 1 decent offensive pass all season.

Zokora's offensive passing was so poor we can all remember the one really top class pass he made.

 

[joey55]

Jenas closes opponents down more than any other midfield player we have,he does'nt need to make tackles,he forces them to go backwards or makes them think quicker which leads to passing errors.
There are lots of stats than cannot be measured and if the stats for Jenas don't look too hot,what do the stats for Lennon prove.
Never in a position to recieve a pass and never tracks back to tackle? Is he even on the pitch?

Lennon stats only go to back up what alot of people were saying at the end of last season. Or alternatively they back up the argument that we play a kind of 433 (i think it is a combination of both and as Legend points out - no Carrick). Either way, there is a clear correlation between what people have observed and expressed concern over and what the stats show. That is why stats are useful. They can help to confirm patterns in play people consistently think they are seeing. We can sit here all day and argue whether Lennon is getting involved enough, but until there is some evidence it is all subjective.

 

[Zapsta]

Less so this season, it was only in the last few games he played there instead of Steed. For the middle part of the season he played in the middle with the Hudd and then Zokora.

When Jenas was injured and Zokora was out of form. Or when Zokora was out with malaria. Or when Jenas was on the right because Lennon was on the left. It's never been to accommodate Tainio.

 

[Bobbins]

Zap, just out of interest who out of our current squad could replace Jenas in your opinion?

Or alternatively, which top-class currently available CM should we replace him with?

 

[Zapsta]

How should I know?

 

[Bobbins]

Then how come you're predicting he'll be benched and then sold this season? I don't get it, if there's no-one better at his job in our squad, and no-one else available from another club, where's his replacement going to come from?

 

[Zapsta]

I didn't say there was no one else available from another club, I'm just in no position whatsoever to start reeling off a list of names.

 

[nidge]

Or alternatively, which top-class currently available CM should we replace him with?

Well thats the thing if we signed a top class cm that person would replace zokora and not jenas, so in essence we would need 2 top class central midfielders. :shrug: