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Jol and Spurs

alpha

Well-Known Member
Jun 27, 2005
1,143
873
It is evident that Harry is just not going to get 100% backing from Spurs fans and the question is 'why?'. Would we start to change our thinking if we beat Arsenal at the weekend? Probably not! Many fans including myself have carried on like battered old house wives since Jol's unwanted departure. It doesn't achieve much, but lets put it this way, the Jol debate will continue as long we have a Manager that doesn't adopt the same kind of Spurs footballing philosophies and approach he had. He in essence, was the modern Bill Nicholson that typified everything Spurs; from the way the a Manager conducts himself with the media, his relationship with the fans to the way in which the football is played.

Fans still bleat on about Jol as he had a vision that was widely documented in a number of his interviews where he says he was looking to blend Spurs' push and run style of the 60's with the Dutch Total Football. To me that sounds awesome! Whereas Harry arguably doesn't seem to have any clear philosophy, hence numerous debates wondering what it is with no definitive answer. Was is not Jol that employed Ricardo Moniz to implement the Coerver’s method and the core of his philosophy and whom now works alongside Jol at Hamburg?

These aforementioned philosophies are part of the tapestry of THFC and by moaning about fans having this expectation it is not going to go away as its some of the reasons of what makes Tottenham Tottenham. Not only through Jols tenure young fans will have seen a strain of 'audere est facere' in the bland 90's (where THFC are concerned) - from the unsuccessful management of Ossie to the excitement of the Klinnsman era and when Ginola graced the Lane. I'm sure the Spurs football philosophies - even if it was a subconscious decision - is why many fans started supporting Spurs in the first place.

These falsely typecasted 'moaning spurs fans' and there are a lot of them, do tell you something very interesting about Tottenham Hotspur Football Club and what it stands for. Perhaps these so called 'never satisfied' fans should be embraced for having such high standards???....Ok I guess they won't! Perhaps these standards aren't realistic and in the modern money football world where results are key? Interestingly it shows as a whole, what THFC in the past and continues to stand for, also what its striving to achieve in terms of values and football philosophy.

As much as I think we should give Harry our support, unfortunately he will NEVER fall in the Tottenham ideals and traditions. Jol typified everything about Spurs, so until he returns or someone can fit the bill, and there is no reason to think why Jol wouldn't return going by the fact every other tom-dick-and-harry has returned in the last transfer window and the fact he has even hinted at a possible return in the future these Jol debates will ALWAYS continue to re-surface.

Still, we can all debate on Spurs' dealings in the last transfer window, overall Harry has done a 'triffic' job given the circumstances, even with certain problem positions not rectified, albiet the intention to address this was clear and as much as I was not keane on Keane returning he and the other signings can only overall improve the squad and ensure we stay in top flight football. For this and the fact he is our Manager, we need to get behind him and team for the rest of the season and only then assess what the situation is then.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,182
48,812
i applaud your passion, but the weight of the Nicholson ideal has hung heavy round the neck of this club for a long time, in the end maybe we have to more pragmatic and accept that we may never get success and the pure football the Spurs is supposed to symbolize. At the moment all I want to see is a team who go out and give their all every week.

As for Jol, he was more pragmatic than you think, and he knew what the fans wanted to hear, hence always going on about the Spurs way, and Bill Nicholson. I am not saying that he didn't believe in it, just that he first and foremost he was trying to create a compact, well organised team, who scored goals from long balls from the goalkeeper as well as flowing passing football
 

SpurSince57

Well-Known Member
Jan 20, 2006
45,213
8,229
i applaud your passion, but the weight of the Nicholson ideal has hung heavy round the neck of this club for a long time, in the end maybe we have to more pragmatic and accept that we may never get success and the pure football the Spurs is supposed to symbolize. At the moment all I want to see is a team who go out and give their all every week.

As for Jol, he was more pragmatic than you think, and he knew what the fans wanted to hear, hence always going on about the Spurs way, and Bill Nicholson. I am not saying that he didn't believe in it, just that he first and foremost he was trying to create a compact, well organised team, who scored goals from long balls from the goalkeeper as well as flowing passing football

Bill was a lot more pragmatic than those who didn't see his teams think. He expressed an ideal, that's all. We certainly didn't play that way every game. Pat Jennings never launched a kick the length of the pitch? Do me a favour. And Knowles and Kinnear were as uncompromising (to put it delicately) as any FBs I've seen.
 

danielneeds

Kick-Ass
May 5, 2004
24,182
48,812
Bill was a lot more pragmatic than those who didn't see his teams think. He expressed an ideal, that's all. We certainly didn't play that way every game. Pat Jennings never launched a kick the length of the pitch? Do me a favour. And Knowles and Kinnear were as uncompromising (to put it delicately) as any FBs I've seen.

Yeah good point. What I have been told from my old man, and reading books like the Glory Game, Bill was as obsessed with a tight defence as much playing fantasy football
 

Makkaveli101

SC Supporter
Apr 11, 2004
1,570
1,764
Good post Alpha, enjoyed reading it.

I love Jol, we were so exciting to watch under him. Had faith watching us under him as well...the times we went one-nil down and I just KNEW we were gonna come back and win it. Not gonna search out the stats, but it happened so many times. We even got the results...because... 9th, 5th, 5th was pretty bloody good going in three years. I'd love to have him back.

The only two teams that played as good a flair-attacking football as we did since the start of the Premiership, have been Man Utd and ARSEnal only. Okay since the start of the Prem in 1992, we were very late starters with Jol in 2004, but only us since that were so exciting to watch going forward over consecutive seasons.

Never been excited watching Arsenal play, but there's no doubting how good they've been on the offense over the years, same with Man Utd. haha You've always got to add "disclaimers" like this on forums so you don't get jumped on!!
 

bomberH

Well-Known Member
Jun 4, 2005
28,466
168,302
:lol: @ the name change of the thread.

Good post, i loved Jol but now i'm firmly behind Harry.... Winning the 'Spurs way' would be amazing, but we haven't done anything like that since the 80's. Jol tried and ultimately failed. People forget how bad we were getting during his final months but that's not taking anything away from how great the good times were with him. He got us playing great football and we finished 5th twice, but we fell at the final hurdle.

Harry may not play the same football, but that's not to say his football is boring either. Once he gets his ideas across next season, we'll be a good, solid, counter attacking side much like Pompey last season, only with better players (on paper anyway). Harry's no George Graham (tho' they both might like a bung or two) and to put up with something like that again, without winning, would be soul destroying. Harry knows his football and if we manage to get out of this shit, we'll hopefully see the best of him and his style of football next season.
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
I remember lots of people caning jol for not playing the 'spurs way' (whatever that is) - a lot of people called his team 'hoof ball' merchants

we played really good football for a lot of the time in that one magic season with Berbatov, even then of course Jol got caned big time on here for dodgy subs, tactical ineptitude, etc etc
 

guy5

Member
Nov 2, 2006
406
13
Good post, i only wish Jol had been given a free hand in the transfer market like Harry now does, then we may have seen something special if he had got the players he wanted rather than those imposed on him by Commoli, i believe we could have really pushed on.
 

Kendall

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2007
38,502
11,933
It seems the Ramos fiasco has many people looking back at Jol fondly moreso than immediately after he left.

Fact is, he had the same team that finished 5th in 06/07 but we were right near the bottom and doing terribly, that's with a team of Berbatovs & Keanes.
 

Kendall

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2007
38,502
11,933
Good post, i only wish Jol had been given a free hand in the transfer market like Harry now does, then we may have seen something special if he had got the players he wanted rather than those imposed on him by Commoli, i believe we could have really pushed on.

I think this is wishful thinking and utter rubbish to boot. Jol worked with a DOF, that was the way it was done, it was the same with Arnesen. Jol has no record of good business in the window.

You dismiss Comolli's good signings outright? some of those signings which helped us get to 5th for the 2nd year running? one of those signings being Berbatov (possibly the best player to grace the lane)
 

Bus-Conductor

SC Supporter
Oct 19, 2004
39,837
50,713
We did win the CC the spurs way last year. And despite the poor points return we were playing pass and move football under Ramos. Just couldn't buy a fucking win.

In some ways the football improved under Jol year on year , but in other ways it didn't (defensively itgot worse year on year). I don't think we ever got remotely close to "total football" under him.

Under Redknapp our style of football had gone distinctly backwards IMO until the last two games where we actually got back to a passing game. Hope it continues, if it does he'll have my support. Would also be nice if he'd take some immodium for his verbal diarrhea.
 

alpha

Well-Known Member
Jun 27, 2005
1,143
873
I think this is wishful thinking and utter rubbish to boot. Jol worked with a DOF, that was the way it was done, it was the same with Arnesen. Jol has no record of good business in the window.

You dismiss Comolli's good signings outright? some of those signings which helped us get to 5th for the 2nd year running? one of those signings being Berbatov (possibly the best player to grace the lane)

I seem to remember Jol saying that he tracked Berbatov for a good year or so before Commoli even came to the Lane and was acutely aware of his skills when he was playing for Bayer Leverkusen.
 

sunnydelight786

Chief Rocka
Jan 7, 2007
6,075
4,243
If I had'nt seen such riches, I could live with being poor!

The above quote is taken from a "United We Stand" (Man Utd) fanzine. Pretty much sums it up from me.
 

Kendall

Well-Known Member
Feb 8, 2007
38,502
11,933
I seem to remember Jol saying that he tracked Berbatov for a good year or so before Commoli even came to the Lane and was acutely aware of his skills when he was playing for Bayer Leverkusen.

Oh come on mate, every man worth his salt was 'aware' of Berbatov's talents long before he signed for us. The fact is Comolli went and got him and simultaneously suceeded where Bayern Munich and Man United failed.
 

johnmc

New Member
Sep 27, 2004
1,379
2
Is it just me, or am I correct in thinking that Jol had more than a few detractors on this sight. I wish Jol was still here but he has moved on. Ramos came and went, thank God. Ramos was only 1 of 2 Tottenham managers that I have ever called for to be sacked. The other being Terry Neil, (that shows my age). Bad as Ramos was he had his supporters on here. Now we have Harry, And once more we are all split into different camps. I am glad he is here. He was not my first choice, and I was surprised he came to us, but I can see we are in a mess and I can also see that he is trying to put it right. Harking back to the past is no good. Billy Nick, had his knockers I am sure in those days. Managers have always had support and dissent from their clubs fans. It's just as supporters we seem split on everything. Managers, players, chairmen the whole lot. Perhaps it happens at other clubs and is not unique to us. Get behind what we have. Our present manager is clearly trying to get us out of the mess we are in, give him a chance, before knocking him down.
 

TheBigMatch

New Member
Sep 12, 2005
820
0
The Jol debate will run and run.

What amazes me is the number of people that failed to rate Jol or Redknapp.

My best Spurs mate hates Redknapp, thinks the end of the world is approaching, and rejoiced back in the summer of 2007 when Levy was looking to dump Jol.

But he has never explained:

What exactly was so wrong with Jol?

What exactly is so wrong with Redknapp?
 

DC_Boy

New Member
May 20, 2005
17,608
5
jol had loads of detractors on this site and other forums - and that was when things were going well

some of the rude things that were said about him on this and other sites were horrible to read

I wanted him out at the end, but as usual I kept my language temperate - plenty of others didn't
 
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