Jol Slags in the Rags

[KentuckyYid]

When Keegan said something similar just a couple of weeks ago regarding the toon he was lacking ambition & belief wasn't he?

 

[Adam]

But my point has always been for a manger to be successful, there has to be a realistic margin of improvment. In that the previous manager has to have been doing enough things wrong for the new coach to come in and have an impact. For example, you said what Ramos did at Sevila as remarkable. But if you look carefully at the situation, it wasn't quite as remarkable as is made out. The previous coach had taken them from the segunda divsion into La Liga and they only missed out on CL, on the final day of the season. Yet his record before and since leaving Sevilla suggests he's a pretty average coach at best. So there was clearly a decent margin for improvement and on top of that the club had improved each season for 5 years running. Ramos in effect just carried on the improvement at the same rate as the previous coach. Since Ramos has left, Sevilla have actually slighlty improved. Their PPG is the same and had the league started when he left, they'd have finished 3rd, ahead of Barca and only 3pts from second. This is actually better than Ramos managed. All this was achieved by a coach that had never managed a 1st team before. So it puts in persepctive the true effect of Ramos's managerial impact. He did a very good job, but isn't the miracle worker many have made him out to be. And it's this reputation as a miracle worker that could be his downfall with the Spurs fans.

The key at Tottenham, is that BMJ is clearly not an average coach (unlike Caparos who Ramos replaced at Sevilla). The margin of improvement at Spurs is far smaller, infact probably non existent (in terms of coaching). Unlike Jiminez was able to at Sevilla, Ramos wasn't able to improve on Jols results from last season. In fact he only managed to match Jols results in his first season, despite having a massively better squad. It just shows just how much tougher the job is at Spurs than at Sevilla. To put it in simple terms, it's much easier to have an impact when you are replacing Souness than it is when replacing Feguson. At Sevilla, Ramos was replacing a Souness type, whilst at SPurs he's replacing a Ferguson type. I think Jol was right when he said not even Mourinho could have done a better job. Until our fans realise that, I think Ramos will be in for a tough ride.

I think the key impact he's had for us, is that he's made the board aware of what is really needed. It seems before Ramos arrived the board genuinley believed we had a sqaud capable of challenging the top 4. But now Ramos has come in and made it pretty clear we don't. For me the key to success is to buy much better than we have since 2006. The purchases of Woodgate, Modric and Hutton are gret starts, but to have any hope of finishing in the to 4, I think we'' need at least 2 other quality signings. And even then it will be difficult, but the trouble is, if we don't I assure you people will start going on about how Jol did just aswell or even better with a far worse squad.

You argue your point (as always) extremely well, and im not going to sit here and tell you your wrong because pretty much everything you say is valid. The reason that we are (and probably always will) differing in our views is simply based on our overall opinions of Jol's rule, with yours putting him in a much higher light, which i respect as it is a view shared by a large proportion of our fans.

Whilst we can try and predict what will happen under Ramos, for the most part, our efforts are pointless as only time shall tell. I personally believe that we might be able to catapult ourselves into the top four within the next few years as a few years ago, we would have seen ourselves as below Leeds and Newcastle in terms of ability and the gap, to some would have seemed unbreachable. However, for one reason or another, the gap has been breached (although i do not expect a Leeds like situation to occur again with a top English club) and there is no reason to guarantee that the top four will be as such for the next 5-10 years, as sport in general is far less predictable than that, hence why it receives such adoration accross the globe. Leicester rugby team for example, whilst they are in the Premiership final this weekend finished fourth this year which was very low for them, and the Catalan Dragons in rugby league currently sit third after 15 games after finishing bottom last year.

Basically what i'm trying to say is that i feel that Jol's comments are extremely narrow minded and seem to suggest that unpredictability is no longer possible in football, a claim that i would argue against furiously in the hope that i and all of the other posters that disagree with his comments will be proved correct in the coming years.

 

[DoublePivot]

Deadwood, interesting topic title, bearing little relation to the content of the post. Have you considered a career working for the red tops?

I did the title to be a little cheeky.

I found that on Goal.com, by the way. My bad for not posting the source. It was 1 am though

 

[rez9000]

Are you comparing ADO Den Haag with Spurs? I didn't say he didn't do well in Holland - I said he managed small clubs. There is no PSV, Ajax or Feynoord on that list is there? I also really don't see how you can compare being Man U's assistant with the top job at Spurs either. So Sir Alex wanted him to put out the cones - big deal. He didn't hire him though did he? Wonder why? :shrug:

Erm... because Jol turned it down? And if you think that the Assistant Manager at Man U puts out cones then you need to look at Man U's structure a little more closely.

I thought I expalined what I meant by small club manager in my earlier post. Its about attitude and ambition. Jol showed very little - we always sat back on leads, we hit the ball long, he wouldn't play wingers away from home, running the ball into the corners at home to shit sides when winning. These were traits of a small club manager IMHO. At no stage did I say that managing a small club precludes you from managing a big one, you have to start somehwhere - but its how you do it. To compare Jol's abilities as a manager with Clough is laughable. You lost me with the Keegan and Southgate bit...

At the end of the day, I'm glad Levy, Comolli and co felt the same way as me and got rid of him. Nice bloke, great with the press, always went on about how much he loved Spurs - all admirable qualities, but was very limited as a manager - in my opinion (and others').

I'm sorry, but that's utter tosh. There isn't a 'small club handbook' that states that a small club must sit back on leads, not play wingers away from home etc, etc.

The reason I raised Southgate et al is in answer to your assertion that Jol didn't belong at Spurs because he had only managed small clubs. The names I raised went straight from playing to managing decent-sized clubs.

Pardon me, but at what point did I compare Clough to Jol? Obviously you don't understand what I was saying when I talked about Clough. I was saying that the size of the club is immaterial, as demonstrated by Clough taking relatively small clubs to major honours. I hope that's a little clearer.

 

[chris]

My take on Jol's comments is that he is simply trying to reinforce his personal achievement of getting us up to 5th place in both seasons, in context of the difficulties of competing in the Premier League against the established top 4. Nothing more sinister than that.

 

[parklane_n17]

why dont jol come out and admit the mistakes he made at spurs which stopped us breaking into the top 4 two years in a row !!!! god im glad he has gone the blind faith people had/has in him really pisses me off

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think most of you know here I stand on Jol. I have never thought or said he was shit. I think for the most part he did a good job with a good squad. But I do think he made vital mistakes at vital times - and that they were, or could have been the difference between us seriously challenging 3rd/4th (NOT 1st/2nd) in the last three years.

By that I don't mean as things stood we would have been there but if managed better in 2005-6 I genuinly believe we could have capitalised on a weakness in others, won a 4th spot and as everybody has seen we are probably the best placed club to actually capitalise on such a piece of firtune. We have proved we have the resources, we have proved we have spending power and a very ambitious board.

I don't believe it would have necessarily been a one hit wonder. I think knocking arsenal out of the CL at that time would have been catastrophic for them having just financed the new stadium.

We of all clubs could maybe have managed to attract a couple of top quality players ( Berbatov etc) and continued to progress. I think the board would certainly have committed resources (as they have proved they are prepared to do).

But from the start of that season - when we were definately the fifth best squad - mistakes were made.

And I never ever got the impression Jol felt confident of maintaining it. I don't mean I wanted him ome out and talk bollocks but his whole demeanour was just not of a winner. We ground our way to many results that season and were overly negative at times.

I wont go into the personel and tactics I disagreed with because we have been down this road a hundred times (and Joey will think I'm picking a fight for the sake of it).

I think ultimately Jol was good enough to achieve what he did that year and a worse manager could have easily achieved less. But a better one - and I accept they few, especially available to us - would have smelt the fear in arsenal and gone for the jugular and took it. And we may, just may, have not looked back.

His above statement may be quite realistic but it is totally negative. Especially in the context of what he knows we are trying to achieve - and if there are a few players sitting in our dressing room thinking "well in that case you were bullshitting to us gaffer" - I hope.

 

[TheWaddler]

Erm... because Jol turned it down? And if you think that the Assistant Manager at Man U puts out cones then you need to look at Man U's structure a little more closely.

It's called sarcasm, :roll: sorry it wasn't clear. That said, the difference between being SAF's no.2 and the no.1 at Spurs is massive, no matter what the structure - unless you are saying SAF is a puppet? And Fergie turned him down cos he was too fat - seriously. Jol didn't turn down the assistant job at Man U only to take up the assistant job at Spurs.

I'm sorry, but that's utter tosh. There isn't a 'small club handbook' that states that a small club must sit back on leads, not play wingers away from home etc, etc.

So in general small clubs when playing bigger ones don't play defensively, one up front, pack the midfield etc? I think they do. I am not saying each and every one does.

The reason I raised Southgate et al is in answer to your assertion that Jol didn't belong at Spurs because he had only managed small clubs. The names I raised went straight from playing to managing decent-sized clubs.

I still don't get your point! So Middlesborough appoint Southgate from nothing? What's that got to do with my point about Jol's small club attitude? :shrug:

Pardon me, but at what point did I compare Clough to Jol? Obviously you don't understand what I was saying when I talked about Clough. I was saying that the size of the club is immaterial, as demonstrated by Clough taking relatively small clubs to major honours. I hope that's a little clearer.

Clough was a genius, and an arrogant one at that. No way would he have had a small club mentality - not that Derby and Notts Forest in the 70s and 80s could be compared to ADO Den Haag. They sound more like Wimbledon.

To reiterate my point:

I am not saying small clubs can't have success.
I am not saying all managers at small clubs will fail at big clubs.

I am saying Jol only managed small clubs before Spurs, and in my opinion, managed Spurs as someone would a small club - in a negative manner, scared of the "bigger" opposition.

I am glad he's gone, you obviously are not. That is fine, the world would be boring if we all agreed.

 

[spurslenny]

Ahem. Jol beat two top four teams, Chelski at home, Man U away. That is unless you prefer the view you get with your head wedged up the establishment's ass. Each to their own.

can't remember beating man u away, unless you are including the goal that never was

 

[idlepete]

can't remember beating man u away, unless you are including the goal that never was

That's the one. I don't care what THE MAN says, we stuffed em in their own back yard and every Man U fan I know was embarassed into conceding they were beaten even if we didn't get the three points awarded after. Jol gets the credit for a win at OT from me, cos that's what happened on the day. His much-denigrated record against the top 4 isn't accurate and I'll continue to say so.

I got some convoluted neg rep for that post from a loser calling me a loser for not recognising that Spurs are losers, brightened my morning right up that has.

 

[agrdavidsfan]

Jol Manager Of Hamburg Just Makes Me Laugh
Hamburg ...Jol...... Lol

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Jol Manager Of Hamburg Just Makes Me Laugh
Hamburg ...Jol...... Lol

:|

lost me...

oh, cos he's a bit fat? ahh, you card :up:

 

[SpurSince57]

why dont jol come out and admit the mistakes he made at spurs which stopped us breaking into the top 4 two years in a row !!!! god im glad he has gone the blind faith people had/has in him really pisses me off

:stupid::duh:

 

[michaelden]

Jol was awesome for us and we did overachieve under his rule. He is right we won't be a top 4 team until we invest heavily. No sour grapes just the truth.

I don't see any of this as slagging off the club. I bet if Jol had the money we paid for Bent he'd have bought a different player like a LW or CB.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

That's the one. I don't care what THE MAN says, we stuffed em in their own back yard and every Man U fan I know was embarassed into conceding they were beaten even if we didn't get the three points awarded after. Jol gets the credit for a win at OT from me, cos that's what happened on the day. His much-denigrated record against the top 4 isn't accurate and I'll continue to say so.

I got some convoluted neg rep for that post from a loser calling me a loser for not recognising that Spurs are losers, brightened my morning right up that has.

We all understand what you are saying about that game. But can you remember what Jol's post match reaction was ?

I was almost as pissed off with his reaction as what I was with the decision. That post match interview sumed Jol up for me.

 

[chinaman]

Jol Manager Of Hamburg Just Makes Me Laugh
Hamburg ...Jol...... Lol

You mean he's now a hamburger?

 

[tototoner]

I don't mind public comments like this coming out saying we cannot get 4th, certainly beats last pre-season when everyone was tipping us for 4th and ending up 11th.

It might even just relax the pressure on the players come the start of next season, which can only be a good thing.