Jol Slags in the Rags

[sparx100]

Jol is only saying what everyone really knows - I am not negative, but we finished 11th this season, can we expect to finish 4th this year? The top 4 will improve their squads, have more money, have the lure of champions league football and have better squads - there is a huge gap to bridge.

 

[joey55]

I think our fans should remember this when they start slagging Juande off if we finish 5th. Also, that is just 2 lines of an interview, so I doubts it's in context and I'm sure it was more to do with him explaining to the HSV fans and German media what a fantastic job he did here, which he is entitiled to do as many of the media and our fans seem to have forgotten what an achievment it was and were of the dilussional opinion that the squad was top 4 quality and Jol wasn't. His reputation has been damaged by what happend at the start of the season and the true level of his achievments under valued. This is the key reason I believe some are unimpressed with Ramos. It's becasue they undervalue what Jol did and thus expect Ramos to do better. To judge Ramos fairly, people need to realise he's replacing one of the very best and take note of what Jol is saying. Even if we spend a fortune this summer, which it looks like we might, we shouldn't expect more than 5th. In fact we shouldn't aim at a place finish, but rather set a fair points tally target. Given the money we look to be spending, perhaps 68-70 pts, and then see where that takes us. Also, Jol clearly doesn't think it's impossible for us to finish in the top 4, as he said the other day, in his Sunday Times column, that we should have in 2006.

 

[Adam]

To be honest, i didnt really care what he thought/said when he was our manager, so i couldnt care less what he's got to say about us now. When we finished fifth for the first time, he said that his target for the next year was to come top six. That was when i turned against him. Forget this realism rubbish, one of the main things that all top managers speak about is mentality, and that mentality is what Jol was, and always will lack in terms of top management. In three years, he beat ONE top four team ONCE. Ramos did that in three months, because he made the players believe that they could do it and that was what they worked so hard for.

Two years ago, Doncaster were in League two and now they are in the Championship, playing some outstanding football. Is their rise any more unrealistic than our realising of potential and making the jump up by one place (considering that we are probably in the best position both financially and personnel wise to do so)?

I dont think so

 

[Rocksuperstar]

To be honest, i didnt really care what he thought/said when he was our manager, so i couldnt care less what he's got to say about us now. When we finished fifth for the first time, he said that his target for the next year was to come top six. That was when i turned against him. Forget this realism rubbish, one of the main things that all top managers speak about is mentality, and that mentality is what Jol was, and always will lack in terms of top management. In three years, he beat ONE top four team ONCE. Ramos did that in three months, because he made the players believe that they could do it and that was what they worked so hard for.

Two years ago, Doncaster were in League two and now they are in the Championship, playing some outstanding football. Is their rise any more unrealistic than our realising of potential and making the jump up by one place (considering that we are probably in the best position both financially and personnel wise to do so)?

I dont think so

But this article focuses on the financial side of it, not the attitude, the mentality or anything - his point is that the top four clubs have reached a point where they have so much cash from the success they've achieved that it's putting them completely out of reach of any other club ever having a chance to compete.

Us and Everton are probably the two clubs with the biggest claims to usurping one of the quartet but if we want to we have to get the best players. We can't get them players because a) we don't have the kind of money to offer that others do and b) we don't have the champions league. Why don't we have champions league? Because we can't tempt the best players here - they'd rather sit on a bench at Chelsea or the Woolwich and earn a mint.

It's a vicious circle and in no way reflects on the passion or commitment of any side in any league to achieve great things - Derby worked so hard, their fans turning out in their droves to watch their side fail - why did they fail? Couldn't get the squad... why couldn't they get the players? Cos they couldn't make money as they aren't competing where all the money is focused... see where i'm going with this?

 

[idlepete]

Ahem. Jol beat two top four teams, Chelski at home, Man U away. That is unless you prefer the view you get with your head wedged up the establishment's ass. Each to their own.

 

[johnmc]

just being realistic I think. Not slagging of Spurs just saying the top 4 are almost untouchable. Getting into the top 4 has to be the target, that goes without saying. But we have to be realistic and realise it is very very difficult. Also getting into the top 4 is hard in its self, staying there is going to be almost mission impossible. Our best bet as far as I can see and being realistic is to try and turn the top 4 into a top 5.

 

[Adam]

Ahem. Jol beat two top four teams, Chelski at home, Man U away. That is unless you prefer the view you get with your head wedged up the establishment's ass. Each to their own.

Or the view you get from your seat at old trafford? Was that your view too?

 

[idlepete]

Or the view you get from your seat at old trafford? Was that your view too?

Nope. What's your point? Armchair fans can't tell when they've been robbed?

 

[joey55]

To be honest, i didnt really care what he thought/said when he was our manager, so i couldnt care less what he's got to say about us now. When we finished fifth for the first time, he said that his target for the next year was to come top six. That was when i turned against him. Forget this realism rubbish, one of the main things that all top managers speak about is mentality, and that mentality is what Jol was, and always will lack in terms of top management. In three years, he beat ONE top four team ONCE. Ramos did that in three months, because he made the players believe that they could do it and that was what they worked so hard for.

Two years ago, Doncaster were in League two and now they are in the Championship, playing some outstanding football. Is their rise any more unrealistic than our realising of potential and making the jump up by one place (considering that we are probably in the best position both financially and personnel wise to do so)?

I dont think so

It's believeing this kind of thing that gioves Ramos no chance with fans. In those games Ramos had all our kep players fit. We simply had a much better side the Arsenal, which we din't last year. And we'd already beaten Chelsea. Do you think we seriously won because Ramos made the players believe or because we bought a top class CB who marshalled Drogba superbly and scored the winning goal? Last season we put 3 past Chelsea and would almost certainly had won if we had King and Woody at the back.

My point is, what happens when we have injury problems and meet the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea in the Cups without key players and lose. Do fans then start losing fath in Ramos and say he is losing it or that he can't motivate etc? Creating this Ramos super coach myth is not doing him any favours. He doesn't have magical powers or some super tactical brain, some of our fans seem to think he has. I'm fed up of reading shit about what Ramos is going to do afer "a full pre season." What we've seen from Ramos is what we are going to get. And from that surely we should deduce that we aren't close to the top 4 and therefore we need to spend alot of money and be more realistic about our expectations.

 

[rez9000]

I don't disagree that money rules, or that it is hard to break in, but "The top four" © Sky Sports 2004, is not set in stone.

Don't disagree that he was undermined to an extent, but he was a small club manager:

His memory must be failing him, as we were a dodgy lasagne away from qualifying whilst he was in charge.

If it's impossible then why try? All it will take is for Ferguson to retire, Chelsea to appoint the wrong man, Rafa to walk or Wenger to lose a couple more players and replace them with 17 year olds from Ivory Coast and the door is ajar. A team with ambition could jump in and stay there. Personally I think Jol always lacked that ambition - he was a small club manager managing one of the world's richest clubs - a miss-match that was always going to end in tears.

Then how do you explain SAF wanting him as his assistant? You can't get much bigger than Man U, can you? And you're not telling the whole story with your list of Dutch clubs that Martin Jol managed. ADO Den Haag were a Third Division amateur side that Martin Jol turned into European qualifiers. He won the Dutch Cup for Scheveningen, their first trophy in 30 years.

And I'd like to know what a 'small club manager' is anyway. Clough was a small-club manager, wasn't he? The only big club he managed was Leeds and he was sacked after 44 days. Yet he won Derby's first (of only two) League Championships. And Forest. Hardly a massive club, even in those days. And yet he got them a League Championship, 2 European Cups, a European Super Cup and 2 League Cups. And where are Forest now? Only just promoted to the Championship. Hardly the big time, are they?

What about Roy Keane? How come he's managing a side like Sunderland with absolutely no previous experience? They may not be giants anymore, but they're far from tiny.

Gareth Southgate, Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes. Kevin Keegan's first managerial role was Newcastle after eight years away from football, and he almost got them their first League title in nearly 70 years.

Football is football. Whether you play or manage a big or small club, it's still fundamentally the same. There are differences between the big and small clubs, but to say that a manager can't manage a powerhouse because he's only managed smaller clubs is meaningless and lazy analysis.

I think our fans should remember this when they start slagging Juande off if we finish 5th. Also, that is just 2 lines of an interview, so I doubts it's in context and I'm sure it was more to do with him explaining to the HSV fans and German media what a fantastic job he did here, which he is entitiled to do as many of the media and our fans seem to have forgotten what an achievment it was and were of the dilussional opinion that the squad was top 4 quality and Jol wasn't. His reputation has been damaged by what happend at the start of the season and the true level of his achievments under valued. This is the key reason I believe some are unimpressed with Ramos. It's becasue they undervalue what Jol did and thus expect Ramos to do better. To judge Ramos fairly, people need to realise he's replacing one of the very best and take note of what Jol is saying. Even if we spend a fortune this summer, which it looks like we might, we shouldn't expect more than 5th. In fact we shouldn't aim at a place finish, but rather set a fair points tally target. Given the money we look to be spending, perhaps 68-70 pts, and then see where that takes us. Also, Jol clearly doesn't think it's impossible for us to finish in the top 4, as he said the other day, in his Sunday Times column, that we should have in 2006.

Definitely, joey.

One thing occurs re BMJ.

It's pretty clear that Ramos believes that the current Spurs squad is not good enough. We all agree on that, yes?

If that's the case, can someone explain how a squad that's so poor it needs major revamping gained two fifth placed finishes, two major Cup quarter-finals and a semi-final?

And this has nothing to do with who assembled the squad either. If the squad was poor, then we overachieved in order to gain our two fifth places, yes? So who was that down to? Comolli? Levy? Hughton?

What Jol has said is true. The gap between the Top 4 and the rest is bigger than most people think and it's getting bigger. This is why we need a spending cap linked to a club's finishing position.

(for those who didn't read the thread in General Football, here's the link: http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=31359).

That is the only way to keep the League competitive. Otherwise it will stagnate into the Top Bastards continually occupying the CL positions and the newly-promoted clubs dropping straight back down to the Championship. Rein in the top clubs spending power and the guarantee of CL football and you'd see more top players at the smaller clubs, less monopolisation of the Top 4 and the newly promoted clubs with a chance of actually winning something.

 

[Adam]

It's believeing this kind of thing that gioves Ramos no chance with fans. In those games Ramos had all our kep players fit. We simply had a much better side the Arsenal, which we din't last year. And we'd already beaten Chelsea. Do you think we seriously won because Ramos made the players believe or because we bought a top class CB who marshalled Drogba superbly and scored the winning goal? Last season we put 3 past Chelsea and would almost certainly had won if we had King and Woody at the back.

My point is, what happens when we have injury problems and meet the likes of Arsenal and Chelsea in the Cups without key players and lose. Do fans then start losing fath in Ramos and say he is losing it or that he can't motivate etc? Creating this Ramos super coach myth is not doing him any favours. He doesn't have magical powers or some super tactical brain, some of our fans seem to think he has. What we've seen from Ramos is what we are going to get. And from that surely we should deduce that we aren't close to the top 4 and therefore we need to spend alot of money and be more realistic about our expectations.

I agree that with many fans, the myth that he is going to win us the Champions League in two years is a joke, and certainly not a bandwaggon that i'm going to jump on, and i agree entirely that with your best players on the pitch, you've got a great chance of winning. However, i watch pretty much every game in Spain that Sky allows, and the impact that Ramos had on Sevilla was remarkable. Obviously they do not have such a set-in-stone top four which allows for other teams to prosper and win things, eg Valencia, Depor, Villareal and Sevilla, all of whom have been considered as top sides in Spain at some point during the last 7-8 years. However, whilst on one hand, the Ramos factor cannot be overestimated as the be all and end all of a scoreline is what happens on the pitch, underestimating the magager's impact is conversely unfair, otherwise you could say the same about many heroes of football such as Ferguson, Clough etc.

Lastly, that we were able to buy Woodgate and Hutton is an indication that we do have a chance of doing things-when they signed, we were 13th i think, so they must have seen something, otherwsie they would have gone to any of the clubs above us. Im not saying that Ramos is a god and all that yet as ive disagreed with a lot of what he's done so far, especially after the CC final, but lets not do the guy a disservice just yet and say that he cant change our fortunes, becuas if that was the case, teams wouldnt need managers at all

 

[Adam]

Nope. What's your point? Armchair fans can't tell when they've been robbed?

No, i just thought id combat a stupid point with one equally as ridiculous

 

[tRiKS]

It's far more likely that the big 4 will turn into a big 3 or big 2 than someone outside the big 4 replacing a team (long term) or making it into a big 5.

I'm not overly offended by any of the quote attributed to Jol. I sincerely hope we prove him wrong though

 

[jimmy-jojo]

:lol: pair of jokers...

Believe me it's no joke...

I was shocked to hear Jol saying publicly it was IMPOSSIBLE for Tottenham to break the Top 4 last pre-season. I think he made his comments not long after we'd just spent £40m on new players in the summer.

I don't care what he thought privately, but to say it to the media is unforgiveable. Jol used to go on a lot about having a winning mentality...does that sound like a person who has that?

What are the players supposed to think when they here their leader saying they've got no chance of catching the top 4? Is it any wonder Berbatov seemed to lose all repsect for Jol and wanted to f*ck off after that?

 

[Rocksuperstar]

Believe me it's no joke...

I was shocked to hear Jol saying publicly it was IMPOSSIBLE for Tottenham to break the Top 4 last pre-season. I think he made his comments not long after we'd just spent £40m on new players in the summer.

Source? I don't remember Martin saying anywhere that it will be impossible for us to break the top four at any point - he said that no ultimatum had been issued by the board and that if they did it would be ridiculous, then echoed his 5 year plan etc. but other than that, i'd love to see that quote in context.

I don't care what he thought privately, but to say it to the media is unforgiveable. Jol used to go on a lot about having a winning mentality...does that sound like a person who has that?

Do you believe everything you read/hear/see/smell from the media? They have a knack for taking things out of context, for using very leading questions and for being generally a bunch of news-shy shit wads.

What are the players supposed to think when they here their leader saying they've got no chance of catching the top 4? Is it any wonder Berbatov seemed to lose all repsect for Jol and wanted to f*ck off after that?

Again - source? Where did you read that Berbatov lost all respect for Martin? Where does it say he wanted to leave because of this dis-harmony between them, despite every other player saying what a nice, considerate and approachable guy he is? :shrug:

Just points to yet more bullshit from the media which you appear to be taking as nailed on truth - what do you think holds more weight, the words from a gossip hungry, sensationalist hack or from the man himself? :|

 

[idlepete]

No, i just thought id combat a stupid point with one equally as ridiculous

I'm just pointing out where that particular claim that gets trotted out in the 'Jol was shite' narrative comes from. I don't buy it, because I remember what happened. If that goes over your head (wherever it's wedged) there's not much I can do except stand back and admire the stupidity skillz on display. Good stuff.

 

[joey55]

I agree that with many fans, the myth that he is going to win us the Champions League in two years is a joke, and certainly not a bandwaggon that i'm going to jump on, and i agree entirely that with your best players on the pitch, you've got a great chance of winning. However, i watch pretty much every game in Spain that Sky allows, and the impact that Ramos had on Sevilla was remarkable. Obviously they do not have such a set-in-stone top four which allows for other teams to prosper and win things, eg Valencia, Depor, Villareal and Sevilla, all of whom have been considered as top sides in Spain at some point during the last 7-8 years. However, whilst on one hand, the Ramos factor cannot be overestimated as the be all and end all of a scoreline is what happens on the pitch, underestimating the magager's impact is conversely unfair, otherwise you could say the same about many heroes of football such as Ferguson, Clough etc.

Lastly, that we were able to buy Woodgate and Hutton is an indication that we do have a chance of doing things-when they signed, we were 13th i think, so they must have seen something, otherwsie they would have gone to any of the clubs above us. Im not saying that Ramos is a god and all that yet as ive disagreed with a lot of what he's done so far, especially after the CC final, but lets not do the guy a disservice just yet and say that he cant change our fortunes, becuas if that was the case, teams wouldnt need managers at all

But my point has always been for a manger to be successful, there has to be a realistic margin of improvment. In that the previous manager has to have been doing enough things wrong for the new coach to come in and have an impact. For example, you said what Ramos did at Sevila as remarkable. But if you look carefully at the situation, it wasn't quite as remarkable as is made out. The previous coach had taken them from the segunda divsion into La Liga and they only missed out on CL, on the final day of the season. Yet his record before and since leaving Sevilla suggests he's a pretty average coach at best. So there was clearly a decent margin for improvement and on top of that the club had improved each season for 5 years running. Ramos in effect just carried on the improvement at the same rate as the previous coach. Since Ramos has left, Sevilla have actually slighlty improved. Their PPG is the same and had the league started when he left, they'd have finished 3rd, ahead of Barca and only 3pts from second. This is actually better than Ramos managed. All this was achieved by a coach that had never managed a 1st team before. So it puts in persepctive the true effect of Ramos's managerial impact. He did a very good job, but isn't the miracle worker many have made him out to be. And it's this reputation as a miracle worker that could be his downfall with the Spurs fans.

The key at Tottenham, is that BMJ is clearly not an average coach (unlike Caparos who Ramos replaced at Sevilla). The margin of improvement at Spurs is far smaller, infact probably non existent (in terms of coaching). Unlike Jiminez was able to at Sevilla, Ramos wasn't able to improve on Jols results from last season. In fact he only managed to match Jols results in his first season, despite having a massively better squad. It just shows just how much tougher the job is at Spurs than at Sevilla. To put it in simple terms, it's much easier to have an impact when you are replacing Souness than it is when replacing Feguson. At Sevilla, Ramos was replacing a Souness type, whilst at SPurs he's replacing a Ferguson type. I think Jol was right when he said not even Mourinho could have done a better job. Until our fans realise that, I think Ramos will be in for a tough ride.

I think the key impact he's had for us, is that he's made the board aware of what is really needed. It seems before Ramos arrived the board genuinley believed we had a sqaud capable of challenging the top 4. But now Ramos has come in and made it pretty clear we don't. For me the key to success is to buy much better than we have since 2006. The purchases of Woodgate, Modric and Hutton are gret starts, but to have any hope of finishing in the to 4, I think we'' need at least 2 other quality signings. And even then it will be difficult, but the trouble is, if we don't I assure you people will start going on about how Jol did just aswell or even better with a far worse squad.

 

[TheWaddler]

Then how do you explain SAF wanting him as his assistant? You can't get much bigger than Man U, can you? And you're not telling the whole story with your list of Dutch clubs that Martin Jol managed. ADO Den Haag were a Third Division amateur side that Martin Jol turned into European qualifiers. He won the Dutch Cup for Scheveningen, their first trophy in 30 years.

Are you comparing ADO Den Haag with Spurs? I didn't say he didn't do well in Holland - I said he managed small clubs. There is no PSV, Ajax or Feynoord on that list is there? I also really don't see how you can compare being Man U's assistant with the top job at Spurs either. So Sir Alex wanted him to put out the cones - big deal. He didn't hire him though did he? Wonder why? :shrug:

And I'd like to know what a 'small club manager' is anyway. Clough was a small-club manager, wasn't he? The only big club he managed was Leeds and he was sacked after 44 days. Yet he won Derby's first (of only two) League Championships. And Forest. Hardly a massive club, even in those days. And yet he got them a League Championship, 2 European Cups, a European Super Cup and 2 League Cups. And where are Forest now? Only just promoted to the Championship. Hardly the big time, are they?

What about Roy Keane? How come he's managing a side like Sunderland with absolutely no previous experience? They may not be giants anymore, but they're far from tiny.

Gareth Southgate, Steve Bruce, Mark Hughes. Kevin Keegan's first managerial role was Newcastle after eight years away from football, and he almost got them their first League title in nearly 70 years.

Football is football. Whether you play or manage a big or small club, it's still fundamentally the same. There are differences between the big and small clubs, but to say that a manager can't manage a powerhouse because he's only managed smaller clubs is meaningless and lazy analysis.

I thought I expalined what I meant by small club manager in my earlier post. Its about attitude and ambition. Jol showed very little - we always sat back on leads, we hit the ball long, he wouldn't play wingers away from home, running the ball into the corners at home to shit sides when winning. These were traits of a small club manager IMHO. At no stage did I say that managing a small club precludes you from managing a big one, you have to start somehwhere - but its how you do it. To compare Jol's abilities as a manager with Clough is laughable. You lost me with the Keegan and Southgate bit...

At the end of the day, I'm glad Levy, Comolli and co felt the same way as me and got rid of him. Nice bloke, great with the press, always went on about how much he loved Spurs - all admirable qualities, but was very limited as a manager - in my opinion (and others').

 

[chinaman]

Haven't read the comments here so don't know if anybody else has said this.

If this is his belief, no wonder he was sacked by Levy who aspires for the best for the club. How can you entrust the future of the club to someone who doesn't believe that it could be rosy.

 

[jimmy-jojo]

Source? I don't remember Martin saying anywhere that it will be impossible for us to break the top four at any point - he said that no ultimatum had been issued by the board and that if they did it would be ridiculous, then echoed his 5 year plan etc. but other than that, i'd love to see that quote in context.



Do you believe everything you read/hear/see/smell from the media? They have a knack for taking things out of context, for using very leading questions and for being generally a bunch of news-shy shit wads.



Again - source? Where did you read that Berbatov lost all respect for Martin? Where does it say he wanted to leave because of this dis-harmony between them, despite every other player saying what a nice, considerate and approachable guy he is? :shrug:

Just points to yet more bullshit from the media which you appear to be taking as nailed on truth - what do you think holds more weight, the words from a gossip hungry, sensationalist hack or from the man himself? :|

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2007/mar/10/sport.comment2

"For me as a manager it would be important to win the title not the FA Cup. But is that possible at Spurs? I don't think so. So maybe in five or six years I will have to go to Ajax or PSV to win a title because that is the only domestic thing I have not won. I have won everything in Holland - the FA cup, the non-league, all the other cups - but not a title. But is that possible? For me it's possible abroad but not at Spurs. Top four, say if one club falls out of the top four, Liverpool or Arsenal, why shouldn't we take up that position? Why not?"

To me this quote from the Guardian speaks volumes. True, he's not saying we can't make the top 4, but the whole tone of the interview is defeatist in nature.

The reality is that in this country if you're going to break the Top 4, by default you're more than likely going to be challenging for the title for a good part of that season...according to Jol that's an impossible reality for THFC.

Also, he didn't talk about us taking 4th spot from the likes of Liverpool and Arse, but rather that they would 'fall out' of the top 4...so in effect they would have to get worse rather than us getting better.