Jose Mourinho

[Styopa]

As has been pointed out, three entirely different squads of players have stopped playing for him over the last 5 or 6 years.

What is that? 70 or 80 players who have stopped responding to him? More probably when you take into account the huge turnovers of players at those clubs including our own.

Of course the players need to shoulder some of the blame. But it's not like what's unfolding here is unexpected. It's literally happened in his last three jobs. The only difference is he usually wins something before it all goes wrong.

 

[rez9000]

You’re constructing binaries to devalue arguments that aren’t in line with your perspective, rez. I don’t mean to offend you, you’re one of the posters on here that I enjoy reading so please don’t take this as a personal slight but the role of a manager is to deal with player motivation. He’s had 18 months and three windows to weed the garden and it’s still overgrown. I don’t doubt the validity of your point about player culpability; there absolutely is an issue with some of the players but equally Mourinho should have dealt with it and he hasn’t. Because of that, and other reasons, he has to go. But so do the players who aren’t pulling their weight. And Levy needs to step up and lead a meaningful rebuild

I was being extreme, Doc, but only to make a point:

Your analogy is a good one, but it doesn't go far enough - it's not an overgrown garden, it's more akin to a jungle. And any industrial power tools he may have had to cut back the undergrowth have been replaced with a rusty set of secateurs after the hierarchy blocked him on moving Dele on. If they blocked that move, who else will he not be allowed to move on?

Just to mix the metaphor, if the transfer window is only cracked open for him because he's limited in making fundamental choices about how his squad should be made up, how is it reasonable to then force him to carry the can for it?

And just on a purely logical level. He's made some changes to the squad already. That means we're already some way down the road of change. That change is needed - I think we're all pretty much agreed on that - and the hope is that the hierarchy recognise that too. So where's the logic in then changing horses midstream?

If the hierarchy are cognisant of where the principle problem lies, then it makes sense to allow him to carry on the job rather than rip it up and start again, because with any replacement, there's the likelihood that deeper cutting will be performed, which will take longer and be even more painful. If the hierarchy aren't cognisant of where the principle problem lies, then they're not going to back the next person either, so what we're advocating for is to go through the pain we're going through now and then add more pain onto it as the next guy fails as well. Keeping him we at least aren't dispensing with his knowledge and experience, which still have value.

There's still too large a constituency in the fanbase who want to ascribe blame to him - holding him responsible for unquantifiable things like style of play. Few are even to willing to entertain the idea that maybe he's been forced into playing a certain way because of the issues we're now getting explicit evidence of.

If we're talking about binarising (and I admit I did so, but only for effect) what about the conflation of what's happening here with what happened at Man U and Chelsea when the three scenarios actually bear little similarity once you look a little beneath the surface? That's not me wanting to engage in whataboutism, just saying that the view is skewed and people need to step away from the emotionality and view things logically, something that's been denied the man since his arrival from many quarters.

Getting rid of him off the back of the last two games (and that's what it would be) would be knee-jerking of the highest order and I'm certain it will lead to more pain rather than less.

The regression is not principally down to him, there are other factors that have contributed far more. In terms of reasonableness, scope of problem and logic, the course of action should be clear - let him finish the job.

 

[shoggy33]

But he continues to play these players. Every press conference he came out with the next game is the most important, so why not play our best players last night? We are away from home with a two goal lead and he has chosen a midfield three that have no capability to dictate a flow of a game. I know Tanguy has not been great but he still better then the others. Lo Celso ended up playing 60 mins last night..so why not start him?

Why not play Toby and Reggy? His words are hollow and as a result he got what we deserved.

Utd played pretty much their first team last night and will do again at the weekend, yet we choose not to...why?

Because what choice does have? If he played our first 11 every game they would all be completely f***ed. He has to keep our squad players involved in some way because he's always going to need them. It's not just one or two players is it, it's atleast half the squad- he can't sideline them all. Honestly who can he actually rely on? Kane, PEH, Son... They are all overplayed and knackered. I agree he f***ed up playing so many of the really useless players last night, and I think it's clear Jose is not the right man for the job, but Im just pointing out that our problems go waaaaaaay beyond the manager and simply replacing him will not result in any meaningful change. Best hope is getting rid a few weeks before the cup final and hoping for the new manager bounce..

 

[agrdavidsfan]

This.

Dele, Winks and Aurier are 3 players that are confirmed want outs.

JM complained before the season the squad was bloated and was going to be a problem.

Add in the Rodon registration debacle and I think there is a lot the board need to answer too.

The Rodon thing from what I know is an absolute mess, really unfair on the kid really. Jose, also didn't like it when Rodon challenged it he expected the player to just accept being led down the merry path.

 

[mumfordspur]

It's amazing that Daniel didn't know that it would turn out badly. He obviously isn't a member of spurscommunity

You are right.
Many not just on here never wanted him (I am not one of them).
I was sold a dud, all the talk about "toxic/yesterday's man/washed up/finished" I ignored looking forward to the pots coming our way.
I fancied an FA Cup this year but would have jizzed at an EL trophy.
We may ambush Citeh (probably not) but this league thing is abysmal.
I actually think we would be no lower if (insert name of most sensible poster on SC) was in charge.

Come on Joe do the right thing and move the boy on to "CEO Matchday Food & Beverages" and bring in Vivienne.

 

[Wadec]

Think if the divide is as big as it seems, being out of the Europa allows us to just not use those players. We won't need as much rotation so Dier, Winks and Dele should be nowhere near a match XI. The players who are not good enough Davies, Sissoko, Doc/Serge should not have to feature.

This will give us a picture on how Jose can perform consistently with pretty much our first team, we would have a much better idea on performances seeing them each game rather than over rotating and balancing 2 competitions.

Whether Jose gets time is down to Levy but this is so much deeper. Really feel uncomfortable today, feels like we all know the shitstorm coming and whichever way we deal with it, it will be really ugly.

 

[Aphex]

As for Dragon's info, that's so concerning.

No way is Jose getting us 4th, he may somehow spawn a cup unlikely as that is, but if Levy thinks that will make up for this joke of a season he is a cretin.

Levy needs a reality check, wrong manager, and half a dozen players in the squad who shouldn't be there.

 

[talkshowhost86]

The latest source of amusement for me is this kind of thing:

"Yeah, the players are to blame and need to be shipped out, but Mourinho has to go with them."

What? So, they've been acting unprofessionally, not been putting in a job-of-work, in essence sabotaging the club and its objectives, which they have form for doing I would add, and yet Mourinho gets absolutely no absolution whatsoever?

We've had the club captain basically tell us as explicitly as he can without being completely explicit that there's a bunch of ****s pissing all over the club from the inside and yet it's still Jose's fault???

Can I ask, has this man been shagging members of your families or something...?

Then dont pick those players surely?

Sell them when you can.

Earn your bloody paycheck!

If there is a sinister cabal of players not doing what they are told, why not out them? Do something about it!

 

[spurs mental]

for al the people saying its the players not Jose. If you were a united fan would you have wanted Shaw, Fred, Lukaku, Pogba al sold? because those were the players that were scapegoated at united but they are all looking like word beaters now! 3 of them playing for the managerial genius of Ole Gunnar Gollum. Its like everyone totally ignores that Jose caused exactly the same situations at united.

So you think another manager is going to be capable of getting more out of the likes of some of our players? Sissoko, Winks, Doherty, whoever the "scapegoats" are here? Couldn't even tell you who they are.

Pogba still only turns up when he wants. Shaw has really only kicked on this season, plenty of United fans wanted him replaced during the summer and they thought Telles would be that would that player when he signed. Like Aurier a bit of competition has helped him. Lukaku scored plenty of goals at United too under Jose so that's a poor example. He was overweight too it wasn't if it only visible to Jose. Fred isn't a world beater. Lol

 

[Aphex]

I was being extreme, Doc, but only to make a point:

Your analogy is a good one, but it doesn't go far enough - it's not an overgrown garden, it's more akin to a jungle. And any industrial power tools he may have had to cut back the undergrowth have been replaced with a rusty set of secateurs after the hierarchy blocked him on moving Dele on. If they blocked that move, who else will he not be allowed to move on?

Just to mix the metaphor, if the transfer window is only cracked open for him because he's limited in making fundamental choices about how his squad should be made up, how is it reasonable to then force him to carry the can for it?

And just on a purely logical level. He's made some changes to the squad already. That means we're already some way down the road of change. That change is needed - I think we're all pretty much agreed on that - and the hope is that the hierarchy recognise that too. So where's the logic in then changing horses midstream?

If the hierarchy are cognisant of where the principle problem lies, then it makes sense to allow him to carry on the job rather than rip it up and start again, because with any replacement, there's the likelihood that deeper cutting will be performed, which will take longer and be even more painful. If the hierarchy aren't cognisant of where the principle problem lies, then they're not going to back the next person either, so what we're advocating for is to go through the pain we're going through now and then add more pain onto it as the next guy fails as well. Keeping him we at least aren't dispensing with his knowledge and experience, which still have value.

There's still too large a constituency in the fanbase who want to ascribe blame to him - holding him responsible for unquantifiable things like style of play. Few are even to willing to entertain the idea that maybe he's been forced into playing a certain way because of the issues we're now getting explicit evidence of.

If we're talking about binarising (and I admit I did so, but only for effect) what about the conflation of what's happening here with what happened at Man U and Chelsea when the three scenarios actually bear little similarity once you look a little beneath the surface? That's not me wanting to engage in whataboutism, just saying that the view is skewed and people need to step away from the emotionality and view things logically, something that's been denied the man since his arrival from many quarters.

Getting rid of him off the back of the last two games (and that's what it would be) would be knee-jerking of the highest order and I'm certain it will lead to more pain rather than less.

The regression is not principally down to him, there are other factors that have contributed far more. In terms of reasonableness, scope of problem and logic, the course of action should be clear - let him finish the job.

What the actual fuck....what season have you been watching?

 

[talkshowhost86]

I should add that I do agree the players deserve a lot of criticism.

Even if your manager is from the dark ages you have to put more effort in than they have in the last couple of games.

Jose would be Jose with whatever squad he had, so needs to go. But hope the new manager is given the faith to clear out the likes of Dele, Dier et al.

 

[agrdavidsfan]

Then dont pick those players surely?

Sell them when you can.

Earn your bloody paycheck!

If there is a sinister cabal of players not doing what they are told, why not out them? Do something about it!

But he can't do that for example if he starts the youth team and we lose 8-0 imagine how the fans would react to that? He can't win.

 

[mumfordspur]

No one else wants them

Of course any "in demands" Reg/Son/Kane/Hoj we dont want to lose.
People banging on about selling Winks etc - they would be bargain prices now.

Shawnee here btw.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

As for Dragon's info, that's so concerning.

No way is Jose getting us 4th, he may somehow spawn a cup unlikely as that is, but if Levy thinks that will make up for this joke of a season he is a cretin.

Levy needs a reality check, wrong manager, and half a dozen players in the squad who shouldn't be there.

Wouldn’t surprise me one bit and if so Levy is a big part of the problem as we thought. He has zero clue about football as we saw from the AON documentary yet but makes the managerial hires abs sets up the football structure, if that doesn’t change we won’t change.

 

[Tucker]

dragon1 said:
Daniel is extremely unhappy thats all I've been told

Also Daniel put his neck on the line re Jose , Joe was not a fan of his style of play or the size of the contract he was given but Daniel felt it would guarantee silverware so this now looks very bad on Daniel

there are no break clauses in Jose contract I think a lot of his future depends on whether we feel we will have a full stadium in Aug and therefore can afford to sack him

Many will not want to hear this but 4th and a league cup win may save Jose just because of our current financial predicament

At this point, 4th and a league cup win would be nothing short of a miracle. If he could pull that off he’d deserve to stay. I have absolutely no faith that he will do either.

 

[mumfordspur]

As has been pointed out, three entirely different squads of players have stopped playing for him over the last 5 or 6 years.

What is that? 70 or 80 players who have stopped responding to him? More probably when you take into account the huge turnovers of players at those clubs including our own.

Of course the players need to shoulder some of the blame. But it's not like what's unfolding here is unexpected. It's literally happened in his last three jobs. The only difference is he usually wins something before it all goes wrong.

JM's records falling like flies
Whatever you think of him it is sad a bit like watching Paul McCartney murder an old Beatles song.

 

[Metalhead]

You are right.
Many not just on here never wanted him (I am not one of them).
I was sold a dud, all the talk about "toxic/yesterday's man/washed up/finished" I ignored looking forward to the pots coming our way.
I fancied an FA Cup this year but would have jizzed at an EL trophy.
We may ambush Citeh (probably not) but this league thing is abysmal.
I actually think we would be no lower if (insert name of most sensible poster on SC) was in charge.

Come on Joe do the right thing and move the boy on to "CEO Matchday Food & Beverages" and bring in Vivienne.

Whoever might come in next has to (but I'm not confident will be) supported to move on those players that we all know have done their time at the club and are a bit responsible for our current malaise.

 

[rez9000]

Then dont pick those players surely?

Sell them when you can.

Earn your bloody paycheck!

If there is a sinister cabal of players not doing what they are told, why not out them? Do something about it!

Because in all likelihood, people will then trundle along pissing and moaning about him 'throwing x under the bus'.

 

[TwoSaintsComeMarching]

Mourinho needs to banish the bad eggs and blood the youngsters in.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

People saying "all jose needs is that magic centre back".

He gave a new long term deal to Eric Dier. That is who Jose see's as a good centre back deserving of financial investment.

Bailly and Lindelof were his choices at Utd. They're ok, but not World Class.

I don't think Jose or our scouting team are capable of identifying anyone even approaching a Van Dijk.

This is further evidenced by the confusing messages coming out of the club.

"We want a fast defender". "Our number one target is Skriniar".

Surely they must know that Skriniar is slow? He'd struggle to beat Toby and DIer in a foot race and is clearly slower than Sanchez and Tanganga.

Now Skriniar is a top defender, but if you're looking for fast cb's and pick Skriniar, then you must be blind.