Let's talk about the wage bill

[Archibald Leitch]

I actually think it is our wage structure and not the transfer fees that has kept us from signing someone this summer.

I believe that was also the case last summer. My understanding is that we agreed a price for Mane, but Liverpool offered him wages just above our ceiling.

 

[Rout-Ledge]

We need to be paying our best players the market rate if that's what it takes to keep them at the club.

We might not be able to afford it with every single one of them, but a global fixed wage cap is going to, sooner rather than later, see us lose Kane and Alli.

 

[Hazardousman]

Yes.
But what are you basing this on? Is there any financial numbers that prove this to be the case?

Well, show me then?

I am not claiming to be an expert on finances, I have already said that but like others have alluded to in this thread alone, TV/CL money should be sufficient to cover wage increases I believe and it's unrealistic to expect us to retain services of players that could be getting double or triple their wages elsewhere in the same way it's unrealistic for us to expect to sign players that will improve us for less than £20M (unless we have an incredibly gifted scout.)

The numbers a few posts above certainly point to that being the case.

 

[Hazardousman]

But this is the problem, the market is fucked.

For a long time now the top clubs have been paying average Prem players over 100k a week. With the new influx of money this is getting even more ridiculous.

PSG haven't paid for Neymar with the club's earnings, just their boards money.

If every club was simply living off their turnover we could offer a competitive salary in comparison with our competitors. We are consistently in the top 20 richest clubs in the world list after all.

But sadly that is not the case anymore. Talking about market rates is becoming irrelevant.

So, what do we do? Because the only option it seems is that we will eventually start moving backwards, we can't expect to retain the services of players that could be tripling their wages elsewhere unless we are constantly winning trophies and without investment in the squad that isn't going to happen.

In other words, we change something or we are fucked, what other way is there right now?

 

[dontcallme]

So, what do we do? Because the only option it seems is that we will eventually start moving backwards, we can't expect to retain the services of players that could be tripling their wages elsewhere unless we are constantly winning trophies and without investment in the squad that isn't going to happen.

In other words, we change something or we are fucked, what other way is there right now?

Considering we've finished 3rd and 2nd the last two seasons and have quite consistently been in the top 5 over the last decade I don't think "fucked" is an accurate description of where we are.

We can't pay the same wages as Utd, City, Chelsea, Real Madrid etc on our current turnover.

So we can either continue to build as we are and keep upping our turnover or get a sugar daddy to bankroll us.

Considering the stadium project I'd want Levy here for the next period of time.

If we were losing players every summer due to wages I'd understand the hysteria a lot more.

 

[Shadydan]

It's all well and good giving passive aggressive retorts on a message board but I have yet to see any evidence from you or others that are defending our approach in the market that we cannot increase our wage bill, I have yet to see any reasonable logic for us not signing a player, especially a RB as a replacement for Walker.

All I am seeing is excuses and shit flinging to people who refuse to go along with the consensus that Levy is infallible or is "doing the best he can for the club."

Which I simply refuse to believe.

Unless of course he proves me otherwise in the coming weeks and strengthens us and manages to keep our current players and manager happy.

Frankly, Levy is secondary to my concerns, keeping Poch and this team motivated and giving Poch the tools to allow him to provide us with more success on the pitch is my only concern because if this team falls apart no stadium in the world will fix the damage.

Also, the same could be said for you Shady, you know just as much as I do on the matter so let's not pretend like you are more sagacious when it comes to these matters because you are not criticizing our business model in the way that I am.

If you want to play that game, where is your evidence that we CAN increase our wage bill?

I've already provided a counter argument to your wild fantasies as have other people neumorous times but I think you're a bit too stubborn to see otherwise, you're right that reply was a playful but I said it for a reason and that was to shoot down such a ridiculous sentence, businessmen take risks you're right but I'm perfectly right to point out a scenario in football where a which a businessman has taken a risk and it's fallen flat on it's face. If you want evidence of a risk scenario in football there's the perfect one.

"Unless of course he proves you wrong and strengthens in the coming weeks"...well yes that's the ENTIRE POINT! There's a reason why some of us aren't wetting ourselves just yet and that's because as I keep re-iterating that the TW is still open and despite Poch continually saying that we should expect some signings before it closes (funny how you choose to ignore his quotes but highlight some just to suit your agenda isn't it) then maybe you ought to wait before it closes before spitting feathers. If we're in the same position in a months time then I'm 100% with you and I'll ask questions but for now I'm remaining calm, if you don't like that then I suggest you just ignore my posts fella.

As for your last paragraph lol It's a good thing you've read all my posts in here because you would have realised that my first post in here said exactly that! No-one knows what our finances look like behind the scenes so again I'd like to know how we'd easily be able to increase the wage bill so freely without consequence, I don't think you've actually thought about it personally.

 

[joelstinton14]

So, what do we do? Because the only option it seems is that we will eventually start moving backwards, we can't expect to retain the services of players that could be tripling their wages elsewhere unless we are constantly winning trophies and without investment in the squad that isn't going to happen.

In other words, we change something or we are fucked, what other way is there right now?

Well what we are doing is investing in infrastructure that means we will be eventually be able to compete with the likes of Chelsea, Man City etc (Well. Partially, we're never going to be bankrolled like they are).

If you look at this report by the telegraph earlier this year you will see the financial disparity there is between us and arsenal currently.

Arsenal Revenue £350million
Tottenham Revenue £209million.

That is what we are currently up against, again, that is higher when you take in to context the proper big three clubs - Utd, Chelsea, City.

Half of turnover is going on wages. We could debate how much of that percentage should be spent, but we don't know what pressures that places on other aspects of the club and its day to day running. 2016 resulted in a 38 million profit before tax.

For teams below us, they have less than us. Where up to 75% of their turnover go on their wages. But they are also posting significant losses too. Which is no way to run a football club.

The guardian did a piece on a club by club basis and their financial position which can be found here. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

 

[TH1239]

Well what we are doing is investing in infrastructure that means we will be eventually be able to compete with the likes of Chelsea, Man City etc (Well. Partially, we're never going to be bankrolled like they are).

If you look at this report by the telegraph earlier this year you will see the financial disparity there is between us and arsenal currently.

Arsenal Revenue £350million
Tottenham Revenue £209million.

That is what we are currently up against, again, that is higher when you take in to context the proper big three clubs - Utd, Chelsea, City.

Half of turnover is going on wages. We could debate how much of that percentage should be spent, but we don't know what pressures that places on other aspects of the club and its day to day running. 2016 resulted in a 38 million profit before tax.

For teams below us, they have less than us. Where up to 75% of their turnover go on their wages. But they are also posting significant losses too. Which is no way to run a football club.

The guardian did a piece on a club by club basis and their financial position which can be found here. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/01/premier-league-finances-club-by-club

Read my long post earlier in this thread. Using the 2015-2016 club finances as some sort of barometer for the club's financial capacity is a mistake. The simple fact of the matter is that the club took in 50 million pounds of new revenue last year that isn't reflected in the numbers you are citing from a television deal that runs through 2019. The club also earned Champions League revenue, which is substantially more than the Europa League revenue reflected in the number you are citing. Our revenue, with new sponsorship deals with the likes of Nike, is going to approach 300 million pounds this coming season. Is our wage bill 150 million pounds currently? I'm almost certain it's nowhere close to that. We have capacity to raise our wage bill (we were operating at 62% wage to turnover ratio as recently as 2013), as I laid out in my previous post.

 

[Dillspur]

I had mentioned previously that I believe levy is trying to wait until next season, we have 2 years left on the current TV deal, so I would assume the negotiations will start at the end of this season. The deal won't be as much as this one and I have read a couple of articles suggesting it could be lower.

At the moment I think levy is playing a smart game, any other business wouldn't be giving their employees massive pay rises until they know the details of the next contact.

But he will need to do something, he is correct that the current transfer market/wages are not sustainable, but so is our current model if we expect to challenge for the title.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

I am still fucking amazed that anyone who calls themselves a Spurs fan still thinks that by bellyaching about our wage structure is going to change anything.

Levy has made it quite clear, and so have Poch in several interviews that this club will not be operated (nor will it ever) in the same way as bottomless money pit clubs that are always in and around the top four or five sides. Our philosophy is different and has built us a sound successful and profitable club since Levy took over.

The proof of this lies in the scattered wreckage's of the business models at Bolton, Sheffield Wednesday, Leeds United, Portsmouth, and the like. Their fans must be yearning for the profitable days of a twice top four and consistently top six or five side like say........................

Tottenham Hotspur?

 

[Shadydan]

Read my long post earlier in this thread. Using the 2015-2016 club finances as some sort of barometer for the club's financial capacity is a mistake. The simple fact of the matter is that the club took in 50 million pounds of new revenue last year that isn't reflected in the numbers you are citing from a television deal that runs through 2019. The club also earned Champions League revenue, which is substantially more than the Europa League revenue reflected in the number you are citing. Our revenue, with new sponsorship deals with the likes of Nike, is going to approach 300 million pounds this coming season. Is our wage bill 150 million pounds currently? I'm almost certain it's nowhere close to that. We have capacity to raise our wage bill (we were operating at 62% wage to turnover ratio as recently as 2013), as I laid out in my previous post.

If you're insisting we can increase the wage bill that's not up for debate, we obviously can. The problem is by how much can we increase the wage bill that's what the debate is and what has been said many many times is that we probably can increase it for a couple of players but then other players will get jealous and it will create a domino affect across the squad and soon you will have youth players asking for £40k a week despite not having kicked a ball so where does it stop? Also the CL income isn't sustainable, it's a bonus as there is no guarantee of CL football every season so it's seen as a risk. What happens if we blow it on wages and we don't have CL football the following season for example?

I really don't think anyone has really thought about this.

 

[raggy]

When you look at it from a European perspective our wages are bang on where they should be for the quality we have. People talk about the market rate for Rose being £160k... that's £80k more than Marcelo reportedly earns.

If we give in to the obscene English pay grade we will always be overpaying for average ability compared to the rest of Europe.

It's a ridiculous situation in England right now where every journalist is writing that Tottenham underpay rather than pointing out that Jesse Lingard earns more than players like Isco, Asensio, Carvajal, and Navas.

The English game has lost all sense of value.

 

[Ledley's Right Foot]

Read my long post earlier in this thread. Using the 2015-2016 club finances as some sort of barometer for the club's financial capacity is a mistake. The simple fact of the matter is that the club took in 50 million pounds of new revenue last year that isn't reflected in the numbers you are citing from a television deal that runs through 2019. The club also earned Champions League revenue, which is substantially more than the Europa League revenue reflected in the number you are citing. Our revenue, with new sponsorship deals with the likes of Nike, is going to approach 300 million pounds this coming season. Is our wage bill 150 million pounds currently? I'm almost certain it's nowhere close to that. We have capacity to raise our wage bill (we were operating at 62% wage to turnover ratio as recently as 2013), as I laid out in my previous post.

I agree with you on the above but what about financing the stadium? At a guess, it will probably add £50-75million to our annual liabilities for the foreseeable future. Even a wage bill of 130 million would stretch our finances considerably beyond acceptable risk until the new stadium revenue starts to kick in. Can see the wage bill rising in 2-3 years but now? I'm not so sure.

 

[joelstinton14]

Read my long post earlier in this thread. Using the 2015-2016 club finances as some sort of barometer for the club's financial capacity is a mistake. The simple fact of the matter is that the club took in 50 million pounds of new revenue last year that isn't reflected in the numbers you are citing from a television deal that runs through 2019. The club also earned Champions League revenue, which is substantially more than the Europa League revenue reflected in the number you are citing. Our revenue, with new sponsorship deals with the likes of Nike, is going to approach 300 million pounds this coming season. Is our wage bill 150 million pounds currently? I'm almost certain it's nowhere close to that. We have capacity to raise our wage bill (we were operating at 62% wage to turnover ratio as recently as 2013), as I laid out in my previous post.

I'm just going by established facts. Whilst you make some sound points, i also think it is dangerous to project where announced deals are going - we don't know the payment structure of these deals, and where they have been earmarked to be used. We also have to take in consideration loans we have to pay off - Training ground, rent we have to pay to Wembley, amongst other outside factors, mainly the construction of our Stadium.

Sure, the money is there to invest into the team, and i hope by the end of August we have brought in 3 players - A right back, Left back it seems, and Barkley, and maybe a couple of youth signings too, but increasing our wage structure means completely reconstructing it and that means raising it at various levels, which has quick mark ups in expenditure.

To be honest the best time to have this conversation is when the Financial reports are released where the data is there for all to see.

 

[Hazardousman]

If you want to play that game, where is your evidence that we CAN increase our wage bill?

I've already provided a counter argument to your wild fantasies as have other people neumorous times but I think you're a bit too stubborn to see otherwise, you're right that reply was a playful but I said it for a reason and that was to shoot down such a ridiculous sentence, businessmen take risks you're right but I'm perfectly right to point out a scenario in football where a which a businessman has taken a risk and it's fallen flat on it's face. If you want evidence of a risk scenario in football there's the perfect one.

"Unless of course he proves you wrong and strengthens in the coming weeks"...well yes that's the ENTIRE POINT! There's a reason why some of us aren't wetting ourselves just yet and that's because as I keep re-iterating that the TW is still open and despite Poch continually saying that we should expect some signings before it closes (funny how you choose to ignore his quotes but highlight some just to suit your agenda isn't it) then maybe you ought to wait before it closes before spitting feathers. If we're in the same position in a months time then I'm 100% with you and I'll ask questions but for now I'm remaining calm, if you don't like that then I suggest you just ignore my posts fella.

As for your last paragraph lol It's a good thing you've read all my posts in here because you would have realised that my first post in here said exactly that! No-one knows what our finances look like behind the scenes so again I'd like to know how we'd easily be able to increase the wage bill so freely without consequence, I don't think you've actually thought about it personally.

Like I have said, I think the TV/CL money could be used based upon the figures I have seen to increase wages where needed in order to keep our best players happy, once again, I am not claiming to be a financial wizard but it seems like this is a solid argument that holds up when looking at the figures and our profit.

I am not advocating for every single player getting a raise, I am however saying that, if we wish to keep our best players and not have this squad be dismantled we need to do one of two things...

1. Win trophies on a consistent basis (even this may not be enough to keep players who consider themselves to be underpaid in regards to the market but it gives us a better chance.)

2.Increase our wage bill

What other options do we have here that would not result in us eventually losing our best players and even possibly our manager? I want neither of those things to happen and I know you don't want it to happen either but I really do believe it is inevitiable, like I have said, not every player is Harry Kane and will stay because they support the club or because of loyalty and the truth is, Kane is on a high wage as it stands so he has less room to complain, even if even he could be earning more elsewhere, it's still more incentive.

It's not "wild fantasies" a wild fantasy is beliving we can continue the way we are and still remain competitive, THAT is a wild fantasy, it's a wild fantasy to believe that a stadium is going to keep players here, it's a wild fantasy beliving that footballers will remain loyal because of the project.

I am not saying you believe those things by the way, but many do, that's my concern.

Of course, like I said, business involves risk but we are at a point now where if we refuse to take any risks whatsoever then we risk something even bigger, losing the foundation that Poch has built over the last 3 seasons, I think it's a risk worth taking by backing him and showing more ambition in terms of transfers and wage structure personally.

I am not ignoring Poch's quotes, I have simply seen this happen far too often with Daniel, last minute buys like Sissoko not working out, not getting the managers intended targets, I am simply saying, what Poch says will happen and what Daniel does are two entirely different things.

I am not saying you are wrong for staying calm and I don't want to ignore your posts because I enjoy reading what you have to say and seeing your opinions, it offers a good counterbalance to mine but nonetheless, you must understand why I might be slightly pessmisitic in regards to what we may or may not do in the market before the windows closes?

You must surely understand why I fear this team coming apart if we do not increase our wage structure and support the manager with the targets he wants?

You must also surely understand why I am annoyed that we are going into the season with holes that needed addressing weeks ago in our squad, like RB and have yet to be addressed?

 

[Cravenspurs]

Also when a footballer starts talking about what he is 'worth' he needs a fucking slap. It's not what you are worth, it's what you can get. Is Danny Rose 'worth' the price of 140 nurses a year? Let's put all 141 of these people in a room for an hour and let him explain that. Then let another 140 nurses walk into the room (it's quite a big room) and let him explain that he needs to double his money as he's actually worth 280 of them. Maybe even 300 or 400 of them. Get a fucking grip and say what you mean or shut the fuck up. It's greed.

Oh so true, but is that not the nature of capitalism? Unfortunately sport has turned from purely a love for the game/competition model, to a business first model. Kids, bar the Kane's in the world, grow up idolizing the flashy cars, the women, and so on and are for the most part, they dream of chasing fame rather than glory. As sad as it is, the culture of sport and work in general in the western, capitalistic model does not include a "fair" or "worthy" clause. If it did teachers, nurses and so forth would be the ones reaping the benefits and sports would be nothing more than club sports of unskilled old farts playing as if they were 11 all over again.

The nature of the beast today is that a club can remain sustainable, run an efficient wage structure, make the sound steps in boosting revenue via development, and still have to deal with the consequences of the market. The world we live in doesn't enshrine the righteous anymore.

And thus, I really don't blame Rose, Walker, or the next greedy SOB. I don't understand it because I am a man that carries a lot of pride in what I do and I have never been transfixed by the bling. But, you and myself are a rare breed and we both follow a sport that has turned into a fashion show of sorts.

I have stated on these boards multiple times that I make $38k working with the poor after leaving a corporate gig where I was making $100k. I love what I do. I feel I am worth more being that I have an advanced degree from a top 15 institution in America. But again, being who I am and noticing the wacky nature of the beast, I can't buy into it. But I also can't blame those that do buy into it, because at the end of the day it is the fittest that survive.

I'll go eat my rice for bfast now as the omelette Rose is eating everyday is just too rich for my blood.

Edit: To answer OP's prompt...I would rather stay the righteous route and punch above our weight. I do think there are plenty of kids out there that believe in the glory and I would love to attract more Kane's.

 

[Dougal]

They've become nothing more than playthings for rich sheiks. You used to hear about pop stars and actresses who were paid crazy money to fuck off to the Middle East to entertain at a 6 year old's birthday party or if the price was right 'entertain' a 60 year old. Footballers are the new whores. Dance for me bitch!

 

[mpickard2087]

Read my long post earlier in this thread. Using the 2015-2016 club finances as some sort of barometer for the club's financial capacity is a mistake. The simple fact of the matter is that the club took in 50 million pounds of new revenue last year that isn't reflected in the numbers you are citing from a television deal that runs through 2019. The club also earned Champions League revenue, which is substantially more than the Europa League revenue reflected in the number you are citing. Our revenue, with new sponsorship deals with the likes of Nike, is going to approach 300 million pounds this coming season. Is our wage bill 150 million pounds currently? I'm almost certain it's nowhere close to that. We have capacity to raise our wage bill (we were operating at 62% wage to turnover ratio as recently as 2013), as I laid out in my previous post.

But that is (conveniently) forgetting what has happened to the squad in the last 12 months - namely that they have pretty much all had a new contract, and that's not just wages as you get bonuses, signing on fees, agent fees with it.

We'll come back to that though in a second... Because also Levy is apparently someone who has players on bonuses and performance related clauses. It remains to be seen what happens in this coming set of figures, but the last time we were in the CL wages went up 50% from 60 to 90 million and it swallowed up all the CL money. I wouldn't be at all shocked if that sort of structure is still in place.

So a wage/bonus increase has quite possibly kicked in summer '16 after qualifying, basically every member of the squad has then had a new contract (with presumably an increase again, otherwise what's the incentive?), which really doesn't get mentioned on here at all in terms of expense, on top of that, and don't forget we've then qualified for the CL once more... That could well be another payout for the squad. We will have to wait for the figures, but I'm almost certain the wage bill will have rose considerably last season and this coming season again.

 

[nicdic]

Looking at the wages to turnover percentage is a helpful metric to look at when thinking can we be doing more without turning large losses. The fact that the clubs we're wanting to match have similar-ish percentages shows that what's holding us back really is turnover.

 

[michaelden]

Looking at the wages to turnover percentage is a helpful metric to look at when thinking can we be doing more without turning large losses. The fact that the clubs we're wanting to match have similar-ish percentages shows that what's holding us back really is turnover.

so we need to sell more shirts, nappies and commemorative dvds to compete financially! Let's buy buy buy fans, we are holding Spurs back by being tight fisted wankers!!!