Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[quackers]

95% of my frustration is squarely focused on Levy forcing us into a situation where we have no senior CBs and Hojbjerg has to play major minutes for us.

But my only frustration with Ange all season has been his seeming unwillingness to bed in youth players. Even with all the injuries the only untested/academy players to get any minutes are Veliz and the scraps Donley has got. If we’re building for a future and are willing to sacrifice short term results for it, why not play the players who will be part of that future?

I understand why he didn’t play Dorrington/Phillips from the start tonight as they have no prem experience, but part of the reason for that is on Ange. What if they’d had 6/7 bench appearances over the season already and felt ready to come in? It’s paid out off for Brighton, why can’t we do it?

Exactly what I've been trying to say.

It's been a free hit all season, give them minutes, see if they can swim.

Brighton have got minutes for many in their youth. Utd same. Barcodes same. Not one of the has been thrown under the bus.

Use them give them a chance, we learn nothing from PEH passing backwards or royal panicking into another wrong pass.

 

[beats1]

You and I remember Sanchez very differently.

When he was at Ajax (lots of passing options for him) Jose targeted him in the EL final, as he was so poor at passing the ball under pressure.

Sanchez is bad, I don't doubt that, he however is alright under pressure with outlets available

in conte's system he was expected to progress the ball and struggled as our CM weren't often showing for the ball and he ran himself in to trouble

However if he has a player open next to him. He would find that player more often than not, it was when his teammates weren't showing he struggled. The same goes for Royal except Royal does try ridiculous long balls

 

[Trix]

Because we want to win games and get as many points as possible and generally they have been fine. Davies has been excellent at centre back mostly these past few weeks.

They haven't been fine at all. We've given up bundles of chances in the games they've played and been fortunate with a combination of poor finishing and that Vic has been superb.

As I said after Everton it is not sustainable to keep giving up chances and relying on the opposition being poor in the final 3rd.

After the last few games every opposition manager has a blue print to beat us. Just press us high even if it's not their usual game plan. Yes they've got to keep us out which will be difficult but our entire philosophy relies on the back line and 6 being able to play through the press. It is such an effective and dangerous weapon and it's why teams all but stopped pressing us high. Most teams started sitting off when we had the ball at the back because it was cutting teams to shreds at will. Now that edge has all but completely gone barring the odd moment here and there. Neither of the current CB's are good enough on the ball and whoever is at 6 doesn't have the tools to take the ball on the half turn and beat the first line of the press. Just get a man touch tight on PEH or Skipp and the forwards to pressure the back 2 and they'll give the ball away over and over.

 

[JayB]

That analysis is BS though. 1st season at Genoa he missed 4 games, 2nd season he missed 8 games. 1st Season at Atalanta, he missed 4 games.

He has only missed 30-40% twice in his career.

Van de Ven's only prior hamstring injury (in 4 seasons) came when he wasn't getting regular minutes.

Again, we should have signed another CB but Sanchez wasn't/isn't the answer and I still think , considering the trouble we have had shifting players, selling him was the correct decision.

You're ignoring Romero's substantial disciplinary record and the time he missed due to injury or suspension for Argentina. He was ineligible for 9 league matches in his first season at Genoa and missed over half of Copa America 2021 due to injury, etc. Between both injury and suspension, it was a big risk to go into a season needing him to be available for every match.

As for Van de Ven, I don't see how the time before his hamstring problem developed shows he wasn't an injury risk. The fact is he had a serious hamstring injury and that it's not at all unusual for it to be a recurring issue.

I agree that Sanchez was not a long-term solution but the performances he put in during preseason were substantially better than what we've gotten from Royal or Dier in the CB position since the Chelsea match. There wasn't a desperate need to shift Sanchez given that he wasn't on a long-term contract, the club simply made the calculation that the modest transfer fee and one season worth of wages saved were with the risks we took on, but those risks have now cost us massively.

 

[HildoSpur]

They haven't been fine at all. We've given up bundles of chances in the games they've played and been fortunate with a combination of poor finishing and that Vic has been superb.

As I said after Everton it is not sustainable to keep giving up chances and relying on the opposition being poor in the final 3rd.

After the last few games every opposition manager has a blue print to beat us. Just press us high even if it's not their usual game plan. Yes they've got to keep us out which will be difficult but our entire philosophy relies on the back line and 6 being able to play through the press. It is such an effective and dangerous weapon and it's why teams all but stopped pressing us high. Most teams started sitting off when we had the ball at the back because it was cutting teams to shreds at will. Now that edge has all but completely gone barring the odd moment here and there. Neither of the current CB's are good enough on the ball and whoever is at 6 doesn't have the tools to take the ball on the half turn and beat the first line of the press. Just get a man touch tight on PEH or Skipp and the forwards to pressure the back 2 and they'll give the ball away over and over.

Ok but putting in a youth team centre back isn't going to fix that is it.

 

[quackers]

Ok but putting in a youth team centre back isn't going to fix that is it.

But persisting with shit is...

 

[Trix]

Ok but putting in a youth team centre back isn't going to fix that is it.

Both Phillips and Dorrington are better on the ball than Emerson especially Dorrington imo although Phillips has other attributes.

As I said earlier if the plan is to cement this formula into the players brains so it becomes second nature, what's the point of doing that to a back up right back who has no long term future in that role. Of he were doing an adequate job right now I'd understand, but he isn't.

As I say I don't know if Alfie is the answer. I do know 100% that Emerson is not.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

But persisting with shit is...

This for me is what a painful rebuild looks like and Ange has done it on many occasions. He's taken a long term view and I'm sure he has the likes of Philips, Dorrington and Donley's development in mind. He's having to eat some *"'$ now but at last someone has grabbed the nettle and is building something for the future.
Plenty of that team tonight won't be at Spurs in the next 18 months and some of the youth players will be getting much more regular playing time but now, in Ange's vision, is clearly not the time for them.

 

[robotsonic]

The idea that it's somehow criminal to go with actual international players above those with PL2 experience and barely anything else is a bit fanciful imo. I can see why he's playing who he's playing, and he sees them training when we don't. If we're going to blood Phillips or Dorrington, it needs to be alongside Romero or VDV. Not together, and certainly not throw them under the bus next to Davies or Emerson.

Same goes with Donley. He should come in for Madders with (a hopefully reformed) Bissouma or Bentancur and Sarr beside him. Not PEH playing 6 and Giovani Lo Celso. We're not playing football like Newcastle or United do. They'll get taken apart if it starts to go south.

 

[bbunc]

we really ought to treat the Bournemouth game as a nothing to lose situation.

play Philips or Dorrington as RCB.

Play a 6 who can actually show for and play the ball. As crazy as it is I think I would play GLC there. At least he can receive and move the ball and at least he’s fresh.

See what happens. Give Donley a shot at the 10.

 

[rossdapep]

Ok but putting in a youth team centre back isn't going to fix that is it.

Exactly

With no 6 able to play the pivot role required that is going to heap more pressure on a young CB.

I can see it now.

Hojbjerg is passed to. Can't turn, so comes back and passes to Phillips or Dorrington who are now under huge pressure and only have a short pass to Vicario open.

The other option is of course to just go long.

Yet Ange isn't coaching them to do that and doesn't want bad habits like that, especially for a young player.

So does he put a player with either zero or very limited professional game time in and put them under that intense pressure?

Or does he save them and wait until he has his main core group of players around them and then give them minutes where the pressure can be lifted and they can do the things he asks in a far less riskier scenario (with a 6 who can receive under pressure and play through effectively and a experienced CB)?

Its alright just saying 'chuck em in, they can't be worse" but what if they are just as bad?

How will they cope with that horrendous start to their pro career?

 

[PaulM]

we really ought to treat the Bournemouth game as a nothing to lose situation.

play Philips or Dorrington as RCB.

Play a 6 who can actually show for and play the ball. As crazy as it is I think I would play GLC there. At least he can receive and move the ball and at least he’s fresh.

See what happens. Give Donley a shot at the 10.

The manager wants to win games.

Even if he didn’t, imagine him going in to Levy and saying “sorry we’re 3 more points off the top 4 boss but I was treating it as a free hit. Still mates right?”

And let’s say the young lads have a ‘mare. Comes to the Burnley game and now Ange has to go to Davies, Emerson and PEH and say “yeah mates, remember I dropped you last week for the kids and that sort of blew up in my face. Well now I’m coming back to you lads. I know you all felt a bit humiliated but will you boys run through a brick wall for me today and the rest of January when I’ll be needing you?”

Not to mention what the other players would think.

 

[only1waddle]

Exactly

With no 6 able to play the pivot role required that is going to heap more pressure on a young CB.

I can see it now.

Hojbjerg is passed to. Can't turn, so comes back and passes to Phillips or Dorrington who are now under huge pressure and only have a short pass to Vicario open.

The other option is of course to just go long.

Yet Ange isn't coaching them to do that and doesn't want bad habits like that, especially for a young player.

So does he put a player with either zero or very limited professional game time in and put them under that intense pressure?

Or does he save them and wait until he has his main core group of players around them and then give them minutes where the pressure can be lifted and they can do the things he asks in a far less riskier scenario (with a 6 who can receive under pressure and play through effectively and a experienced CB)?

Its alright just saying 'chuck em in, they can't be worse" but what if they are just as bad?

How will they cope with that horrendous start to their pro career?

Some of those calling to just throw Dorrington or Philips in wouldn't do it if they were put in his shoes, with that much pressure, the reality is that the majority of posters here would buckle and go with the experienced defender.

 

[rossdapep]

We haven't had anyone give spurs youth a chance for a very long time so much so Tim nice but Dim is still living off him giving H his chance...

What do we lose by playing them when we see GLC put in performances like that every week.

Or Davies and royal doing that tonight.

Yes they may be young and make mistakes but let them, why persist with shit just because.

Because as a coach you have duty of care to ensure the player is ready mentally, not just technically.

If you give them a chance and they give a penalty away like Lo Celso or play a few okish but not great games until Van de Ven returns or a new signing comes in and they go back to the fringes, how do you think that will do their confidence?

Imagine if Ange had have decided to play Dorrington against City and we had gone on to lose 5 or 6 nil....

How do you think that would have panned out?

We got a result there with Emerson and Davies, it was worth trying again.

We have to look after young players too, not just throw them in when desperate

 

[spurs9]

Both Phillips and Dorrington are better on the ball than Emerson especially Dorrington imo although Phillips has other attributes.

As I said earlier if the plan is to cement this formula into the players brains so it becomes second nature, what's the point of doing that to a back up right back who has no long term future in that role. Of he were doing an adequate job right now I'd understand, but he isn't.

As I say I don't know if Alfie is the answer. I do know 100% that Emerson is not.

Dorrington got destroyed by Cambridge United's B team and both were poor v Peterborough when they brought on a couple of 1st team attackers for the last 30 mins.

I have high hopes for both long term but both need loans.

 

[taidgh]

Bad night from Ange, bad team selection and subs too late. Still fully behind him but he got it wrong today.

Hindsight makes it so easy to critisise.

 

[Hotspur_Hero]

I’m not sure I understand all the whining over Emerson vs Dorrington/Phillips. That to me seems to miss the point entirely. None of the goals we gave up were on Emerson or Davies. We gave up two pens because attackers made braindead tackles. We gave up a worldie where Kulu and Johnson didn’t close down. The first goal was probably on Udogie or maybe Son for failing to track back. I’m deeply skeptical that throwing in an 18 year old cb for their debut away at Brighton would have changed things. Dier would have been shredded by Joao Pedro for lack of pace.

I totally agree our play out of the back was worse with the davies - emerson - peh triangle back there. We struggled with Brighton’s press, and we were unable to impose ourselves on the game until the structure of the game fell apart at the end. But frankly our attacking players let us down today. Kulu was awful. Johnson has been playing extremely timid since he came back with stitches. Son was off the plot, and Richy couldn’t stay onsides.

What should Ange have done differently? We’re not going to change formation or drop the line deeper. It’s better in the long run for the players to learn the system and part of what endears us to Ange is that he plays the game his way. I’m deeply skeptical that throwing in an 18 year old cb for their debut away at Brighton would have changed things. And Dier would have been shredded by Joao Pedro for lack of pace. You could argue the Gio should start either in the 6 or 10, but Gio was a defensive liability and cost us with the penalty.

We lack depth and are paying for poor squad construction and bad luck. Ange isn’t perfect, but folks are drastically over reacting. Despite giving up two awfully stupid pens, we could have still won that game today with better finishing. For me the only thing that is worrying about Ange’s tenure is our discipline record. The red cards have been a problem and the penalties today were a problem.

 

[Trent Crimm]

lol. Generational talent. I love how this gets chucked around. I even googled it for a giggle.

A generational player is basically a player that you see once in a generation. They are players that are a full length above anyone else in the league in their era, players who literally dominate the game. They are few and far between.

If we have a few of those in hiding and Ange isn’t giving em a chance I’d be amazed.

the fact they aren’t yet given a chance by the guy that works with them every day prob suggests they are ok, but not the second coming of Rooney, Rio etc who were generational.

 

[SpursSince1980]

I’m not in agreement with the idea that Ange is being a bit naive. That’s harsh.

Poch had some shambolic results in his first five months. No one called him naive. It was more a question of learning.

Ange is the same. And he is trying to juggle an unprecedented resource crisis. Yep, he got it wrong today. But I will not let players off the hook. As that was the laziest performance by a few of the lads tonight, all season. Brennan, PEH, Kulu, Sonny, Sarr, Udogie, Porro were all incredibly lazy through most of the game. Just watch the (lack of) closing down for the third goal. It was pathetic. Same with the first.

Our CBs were not the biggest issue in this game. They weren’t responsible for the penalties. Or the two long range efforts. That was lack of giving a shit by midfielders, forwards and FBs.

Let‘s see what he does a Sunday. As this isn’t just a question of starting the kids… it’s getting everyone else motivated and showing some urgency.

Maybe he will give some extra thought to playing one of the lads. Who knows? I just want everyone around whomever he picks at CB to actually fight. As this game was really inexcusable in terms of the total lack of passion and intensity.

 

[allatsea]

Deserves to be slaughtered today gets praise when he gets it right today he’s been schooled embarrassing, naive, pathetic, embarrassing

We get it that you don't like him but rushing in to say it once again after a defeat is getting annoying.