Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Trix]

A little bit of a perfect storm atm.

I think some of this stems from both Maddison and Bentancur coming back from long term injuries. They are still getting up to speed and also with each other.

We have had players away with international commitments and injuries.

Missed our 2 full backs who in the modern game are the most important players IMO in any team.

Teams have worked out that if you put pressure on Bissouma or tbf AN Other holding player sooner or later he will cough up possession as he is the holding player.

Teams have also worked out that if you keep an attacking player wide you will get some joy against our system.

I still feel that this season minus Kane is a bit of a free pass. However like most of our fan base I have had the odd sneaky doubt just lately. We have just lacked a bit of tempo to our play with all of the above points mixed in.

I've had doubts this system would work in the Prem from the outset. Even when we were on that winning streak at the beginning it was clear that this way of playing was always going to cough up chances to the opposition, and in the Prem the opposition aren't going to keep missing opportunities like they were in the first dozen or so games. Posters telling me I must hate Ange or that I had an agenda with his appointment etc, lol ok.

There's a lot of scapegoating going on, but I don't think it's about personnel. This system quite simply leaves too much space to be exploited so a mistake anywhere on the pitch could lead to the ball being in the back of our own net with one pass.

I do however think it will get better with time, but not to the point you could win anything significant playing this way. He is going to have to adapt it in some way and make sacrifices to his all out attacking ethos if he wants to be successful. He's a very smart man so I'm hoping he makes the tweaks necessary, and with training and a couple more in we will get there.

 

[Styopa]

It's going to be a long 2 weeks on here.
Plan B is a myth that fans of every club trot out when things hit a sticky patch. You stick with your principles, not abandon them at the first sign of choppy waters. That's how you create and develop a team with an identity.

I really don't think we have been as bad as some are making out. It's all fine margins. No we haven't been dominating games but again I think that's a myth unless you are one of the top clubs with long term managers in place.

Fans want it all now and seem to me to always underestimate the time needed to turn a club around that has been in a funk.

My biggest worry isn't Ange or the players, it's the fans. For once I wish we would just hold our nerve when things got difficult. The knives are already out in some quarters.

I agree, but I think a lot of what you are saying just reflects what it is to be the average football fan in the 21st century.

Everyone is an “expert”. We all have access to every minute of every game and as many highlights and replays as we want. Imagine that back in the 90s! Even if you had a season ticket you would be lucky to see maybe half or two thirds of all matches plus limited highlights. And the most the majority of fans could do was talk to their family and mates about the matches they did see.

Being a football fan now is just like the rest of modern life, from politics, to the economy to health and diet, to the war in Ukraine, everyone is an internet expert and knows exactly what the problem is and how to fix it.

 

[max cady]

A little bit of a perfect storm atm.

I think some of this stems from both Maddison and Bentancur coming back from long term injuries. They are still getting up to speed and also with each other.

We have had players away with international commitments and injuries.

Missed our 2 full backs who in the modern game are the most important players IMO in any team.

Teams have worked out that if you put pressure on Bissouma or tbf AN Other holding player sooner or later he will cough up possession as he is the holding player.

Teams have also worked out that if you keep an attacking player wide you will get some joy against our system.

I still feel that this season minus Kane is a bit of a free pass. However like most of our fan base I have had the odd sneaky doubt just lately. We have just lacked a bit of tempo to our play with all of the above points mixed in.

Agree with all of the above I would also add a few of our defeats have been down to individual errors and not the system we play.

 

[Wig]

Half a season and people are calling for change, mental. The good start we made has clouded peoples minds. Ange gets the time he needs from me thats for sure.

Who are these people calling for change? Is this from "fans" on twitter? I'm not really seeing it on here, I think we're almost unanimous in wanting to give Ange time.

 

[Styopa]

Who are these people calling for change? Is this from "fans" on twitter? I'm not really seeing it on here, I think we're almost unanimous in wanting to give Ange time.

@neogenisis didn’t say “managerial change”, he said “change”. And rightly or wrongly, there are pages and pages of people calling for a change of tactics, systems, formations, approach etc.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

I've had doubts this system would work in the Prem from the outset. Even when we were on that winning streak at the beginning it was clear that this way of playing was always going to cough up chances to the opposition, and in the Prem the opposition aren't going to keep missing opportunities like they were in the first dozen or so games. Posters telling me I must hate Ange or that I had an agenda with his appointment etc, lol.

There's a lot of scapegoating going on, but I don't think it's about personnel. This system quite simply leaves too much space to be exploited so a mistake anywhere on the pitch could lead to the ball being in the back of our own net with one pass.

I do however think it will get better with time, but not to the point you could win anything significant playing this way. He is going to have to adapt it in some way and make sacrifices to his all out attacking ethos if he wants to be successful. He's a very smart man so I'm hoping he makes the tweaks necessary, and with training and a couple more in we will get there.

You do like to jump on a negative take early though and in the past you've not always been correct so lets see how it plays out.

Ange has been successful playing this way everywhere he has been however yes the PL is a different beast and I did notice that against higher level opposition such as in the CL with Celtic they did get torn apart on the break a few times such as against Leipzig and R.Madrid, but they also had far inferior players.

Counter to this after 11 games (not like a flash in the pan 4 or 5, 11.) this season we were top of the league, undefeated and flying and playing in this exact same style we were unbeaten, we beat Man.U at home, Liverpool at home, drew with Arsenal away, beat a good Bournemouth side 0-2 away and if it wasn't for Sonny's miss and the red card against Chelsea we were going to steamroll them, we also put up a good fight 3-3 away to City and thrashed Newcastle 4-1 all playing the same way we are trying to play now. If it wasn't for the injuries and suspensions and AFCON/ASIA Cup I think we'd be sitting about 2nd right now and no one would be questioning the system at all.

I don't agree that it is as simple as it being all down to the system and not the personnel at all, like with most things in life there are a number of factors at play here:
1. We have had a lot of players returning at the same time, a lot of whom will be tired or not fully match fit due to either comebacks from injury or AFCON/ASIA Cup so those players : Sarr, Bissouma, Maddison, Bentancur, Son are all not quite at it yet.
2. In our last match we desperately missed our 1st choice full-backs, in this style of play Davies and especially Emerson are not suited to what is really more of a midfield role, I was at the game and Emerson got caught on the ball time and time again whereas Porro very rarely does in comparison, also going forwards Davies doesn't have the pace and athleticism to drive forwards and beat a man like Udogie does so he kept passing it sideways and backwards a lot which slowed down our vertical attacks
3. We do miss an out and out striker/focal point and top class winger who can really beat a man. Ange has said it will take a couple of transfer windows to get to where we need to be and just like Pep & Klopp when they came to City & Liverpool, they needed a few seasons and multiple windows for their teams to really be consistent. We need a good 5-6 more signings this summer to give Ange the tools he needs : back-up LB&RB, 4th choice CB, CM to replace PEH/Skipp, top class winger, striker. Richarlison has done well lately but he is no Harry Kane, he doesn't hold the ball up that well and he's also not a super sharp quick feet instinctive finisher like a Defoe etc and out wide Kulu is off form and his lack of pace in this system is an issue.

I don't think it is ALL down to personnel but I also don't agree that it is ONLY down to the system as that same system had us top of the league undefeated after 11 games with a Manager who'd only just taken over the team that summer and had lost the clubs greatest every goalscorer.

Also from a tactical perspective against Wolves we did go side to side a bit too much and Richy came deep too often but again a big issue was the full-backs, with Udogie and Porro they take up those half spaces which occupy defenders either side of Richy creating a 5 in attack, against Wolves, Emerson & Davies either didn't or were very slow to do this and the midfielders had no confidence to play it into them and the Wolves defenders knew they were no threat so you basically had 3 CB's just defending against Richarlison which is pretty easy to do when all we did was keep passing it out wide, I'd like to see us deliver a few earlier crosses from the half spaces which Maddison etc pick up like Erisken used to do to Dele when teams played a low block against us under Poch. I also think if we had another top striker option then in a game like that or even having had the option to bring on Veliz a target next to Richarlison would've helped us to break them down a bit more easily.

I think the system can work, if as Ange has said we start games fast, get a lead and then continue to dominate the ball, the opposition then has to come out at us and more gaps appear and we score 2,3+ goals. However if we start slow or the opponents low block is working very effectively then we can get hit on the break.

I think we have far more chance of 'winning something significant' playing like this than we did under Nuno,Jose,Conte etc but regardless of who our Manager is or what the tactics are it will be bloody hard to win something significant as we haven't manged to do that in 30+ years now anyway and City/Lpool and Arsenal are so strong they will likely keep winning the League, FA Cup etc.

I don't think Ange is going to change his tactics but I do think we need a good 5-6 more signings this summer until we see the full consistent potential of playing like this.

 

[RuskyM]

Who are these people calling for change? Is this from "fans" on twitter? I'm not really seeing it on here, I think we're almost unanimous in wanting to give Ange time.

A lot of it is rival fans who've wanted to stick the knife into Ange and his genuine decency because they're a) cynical and b) rivals, so frankly fuck 'em. There's a small cohort of fans that didn't want him in the first place and see a loss as vindication, which is why it often comes with "drop Richarlison" or "stop playing the high line" which to me suggests fans not actually watching the games.

The players love him. The fans love him. I keep hearing that we're naive, but we're doing as well as the pragmatic styles ever got us, and it's a much easier style for fans to get invested in. But for a lot of people, not winning must equal "there is a fault here".

 

[Trix]

Agree with all of the above I would also add a few of our defeats have been down to individual errors and not the system we play.

The system we play means you can't afford to make mistakes. Even the best players fuck up, and every single player makes mistakes. With how we set up it's very difficult to control what happens after the mistake which is the problem.

 

[RuskyM]

The system we play means you can't afford to make mistakes. Even the best players fuck up, and every single player makes mistakes. With how we set up it's very difficult to control what happens after the mistake which is the problem.

But whenever we lost with Mourinho and Conte, losses were put down to individual mistakes too, despite the style being much more compact and entrenched. Isn't this just the reality of playing against top class opposition?

 

[Rout-Ledge]

I’m more concerned about the attack than the defence. With Ange’s philosophy, you’ll always concede chances and probably goals. That needs to be outweighed by very consistent high quality attacking play, and we haven’t really seen that for months. We need players with top technical ability to play the way Ange wants to play. We don’t actually have many of those in the advanced areas of the pitch.

 

[Wearegoingtowintheleague]

Ange in the dressing room before the Wolves game....

"Look mate, it doesn't matter what I say to the press they're going to twist my words and say I'm interested in the Pool job. The only way we can make this go away is put in a poor performance against wolves and they'll move on to talking about someone else taking over from Klopp"

 

[Styopa]

But whenever we lost with Mourinho and Conte, losses were put down to individual mistakes too, despite the style being much more compact and entrenched. Isn't this just the reality of playing against top class opposition?

It’s funny, because mostly Mourinho and Conte’s “systems” weren’t called into question. Especially Conte’s. People moaned about it being boring, but the accepted explanation was that Conte’s system wasn’t really the problem, it was that the players we had couldn’t play Conte’s system.

It’s kind of the reverse with Ange. Instead of saying we need a few more players to fully implement his system, there’s lots of talk about Ange’s system being the problem rather than the players.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

The system we play means you can't afford to make mistakes. Even the best players fuck up, and every single player makes mistakes. With how we set up it's very difficult to control what happens after the mistake which is the problem.

City under Pep have frequently had games where they get exposed on the break often even against us in the past but they stick with it and we just need to get better at dominating games again and when we do we need to be better at breaking down low blocks and starting games quickly like we were early in the season, teams who try to pin other teams back and dominate the ball will always be susceptible on the break, we were less susceptible earlier in the season as we were starting games much better and dominating the ball and creating more chances. Teams have also worked us out a bit but counter to that we've also got quite a few tired and non match fit players currently and badly missed our first choice full-backs last match who are arguably the most important players in this style of play.

 

[RJR1949]

I've had doubts this system would work in the Prem from the outset. Even when we were on that winning streak at the beginning it was clear that this way of playing was always going to cough up chances to the opposition, and in the Prem the opposition aren't going to keep missing opportunities like they were in the first dozen or so games. Posters telling me I must hate Ange or that I had an agenda with his appointment etc, lol.

There's a lot of scapegoating going on, but I don't think it's about personnel. This system quite simply leaves too much space to be exploited so a mistake anywhere on the pitch could lead to the ball being in the back of our own net with one pass.

I do however think it will get better with time, but not to the point you could win anything significant playing this way. He is going to have to adapt it in some way and make sacrifices to his all out attacking ethos if he wants to be successful. He's a very smart man so I'm hoping he makes the tweaks necessary, and with training and a couple more in we will get there.

I'd add that there is a big gulf between Pedro Porro and Udogie and Emerson and Davies and the full backs are hugely important in Ange's system.

 

[Styopa]

City under Pep have frequently had games where they get exposed on the break often even against us in the past but they stick with it and we just need to get better at dominating games again and when we do we need to be better at breaking down low blocks and starting games quickly like we were early in the season, teams who try to pin other teams back and dominate the ball will always be susceptible on the break, we were less susceptible earlier in the season as we were starting games much better and dominating the ball and creating more chances. Teams have also worked us out a bit but counter to that we've also got quite a few tired and non match fit players currently and badly missed our first choice full-backs who are arguably the most important players in this style of play.

Yeah. I think you can say for example Wolves “worked us out” or you could say we were missing Porro and Udogie who are absolutely integral to the way we play and Maddison still looks half fit.

Look how much City struggled without Rodri.

 

[Trix]

But whenever we lost with Mourinho and Conte, losses were put down to individual mistakes too, despite the style being much more compact and entrenched. Isn't this just the reality of playing against top class opposition?

As I keep saying there is a huge amount of room between being all out attack and all out defence. It isn't an either/or situation and neither will win you the league. It's about finding a balance somewhere in between. I don't think we are far off it and it's about tactical tweaks imo rather than a total shift in mentality.

 

[Silky Skills]

Two clear weeks to work on our defensive setup, onwards and upwards ...

 

[Styopa]

I'd add that there is a big gulf between Pedro Porro and Udogie and Emerson and Davies and the full backs are hugely important in Ange's system.

I remember our full backs were really important during Poch’s early years at the club too. In fact as good as Trippier could be, we were never really the same after we sold Walker and Rose’s form deteriorated.

 

[Trix]

I'd add that there is a big gulf between Pedro Porro and Udogie and Emerson and Davies and the full backs are hugely important in Ange's system.

We've given up chances at the back in most games regardless who of plays. Poor finishing, last ditch tackles and Vic being brilliant have kept us in so many games, even games we've dominated. It's not sustainable to keep doing this with the same outcome.

 

[Trix]

Two clear weeks to work on our defensive setup, onwards and upwards ...

Like I say mate I don't think we are miles off, just a few tweaks in positioning and maybe drop a couple of yards will make all the difference.