Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[vinsomer]

I see many faults in Ange recently, playing the suicidal high line, having players starting based on name and not form, sticking to his only formation albeit not working anymore (something Conte did and it made me mad), but for me there is one huge factor that most of our fanbase does not realize. Our attack is weak, to not say shit.

let me repeat again: we have the weakest attack options in all of the big 6. And I would go as far as to say that Villa, West Ham and Newcastle all have better players and options for attack than us. If you take out Sonny (who is not in his prime anymore) we don’t have ONE elite player upfront. Werner is shit, Johnson could become one in the future, but it’s not one right now, Kulu is not a winger and Richy is a decent striker, but nothing more. We desperately need elite players upfront for Ange’s system to work. Yesterday was a perfect example of how right now we have all the downside of his system (the defense completely exposed) without any of the upside, as our attack was completely absent. This is so true for me that if Kane had stayed, I’m 100% sure we would be fighting for the title. He is that good that having a functional, attacking team working around him would transform us into title contenders. Kane’s exit, and without a replacement, can never be understated enough

also, I think we massively overrated our midfield. Sarr will be a future star, but is not ready yet. Benta cur is still regaining form, Maddison recently is doing his best Holtby cosplay and Bissouma fooled us in the first 8 games just to return to his inconsistent, lazy self that Conte couldn’t trust, and rightfully so I would say. A functional and trustful 6 is a must for this style of play, as Rodri and Rice show for City and the Scum.

this change of personal is paramount to judge Ange’s work. Klopp and Arteta could only manage good teams when that happened for them. And although Ange is taking some very wrong decisions lately, we can’t judge him until he also have that.

 

[rossdapep]

Last thing I'll say but I honestly believe a second pre-season will work wonders, that's where the real tactical work and fine tuning happens and where we should have a squad that Ange can call his own after a few windows.

We've gone from a very defensive minded, counter attacking mindset to a possession based, almost gung-ho one and a lot of the players experienced both styles. I think a lot of the pre-season work was probably focused on how to attack and undoing the negative tactics and it shows in our defending, but another pre-season will fix that and we should see a more balanced, long term style of play next season.

I'm genuinely excited to see how we look after another transfer window and summer work. For the first time in a long time I trust the recruitment and we've seen it all before but we have some genuinely special players and characters. If we trim the fat, add the right supplementary pieces and it clicks then the future is very exciting.

People forget we didn;t have many games in preseason either.

The more games you have, the more evidence you see from all players.

Ange had to use that Carabao Cup game to test some of those players out - because he was primarily focusing on the players he 100% knew he'd use.

Anyone who ahs done a long project before will tell you that sometimes you get off to a good start and at some point you come across multiple issues you hadn't anticipate and they all seem to come at once,

We have the following.

1. Defending set-pieces.
2. Transition defending.
3. Creativity in final third.
4. Throwing up posession too easily.

If you have studied tactics in football, you'll realise that this is quite a lot to work on.

So where do you start?

Unfortunately, a lot of the finer tactical details get worked on in preseason.

I recall watching a video of Bournemouth in preseason a few years back and Howe was drilling work on the defensive line. They actually conceded less goals the following season but were not as good at the other end.

It's tricky to balance it all and it's why Arteta is doing well at Arsenal because every transfer window and preseason he has been able to fit/improve one area of weakness.

Ange needs the chance to be able to reflect, rethink and improve.

I am 100% certain he already knows what he wants to do in the future but it really isn's as simple as saying 'Get a set-piece coach in now" or "He needs to go with 3 at the back".

Those may be the correct calls but they also require time.

One of the reasons Jose sucked was because he kept changing the system and personnel from game to game, that just loses the player.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

It should more of a question of, if both teams are on form, how well does Ange’s system do against our direct rivals like Liverpool, Man City and Arsenal. This is assuming we are fighting for a title.

The first 10 games of the season would suggest that, even when not at its absolute best, when the system is played very well, it is extremely effective. If we managed drill it over a number of seasons you would hope that the players would be able to keep up form for a larger portion of the season, like Arsenal and Man City do.

That’s all we need to know in terms of giving Ange time. If we hadn’t seen any signs throughout the season it would be more of a discussion but for now, we’ve pretty much over achieved in his first season and we just need to accept that bad results will be a part of the parcel.

Keeping in mind that this is a very specialised system, and the teams dominating the league have specialised system’s too. These only get better with time.

 

[Johnny J]

I see many faults in Ange recently, playing the suicidal high line, having players starting based on name and not form, sticking to his only formation albeit not working anymore (something Conte did and it made me mad), but for me there is one huge factor that most of our fanbase does not realize. Our attack is weak, to not say shit.

let me repeat again: we have the weakest attack options in all of the big 6. And I would go as far as to say that Villa, West Ham and Newcastle all have better players and options for attack than us. If you take out Sonny (who is not in his prime anymore) we don’t have ONE elite player upfront. Werner is shit, Johnson could become one in the future, but it’s not one right now, Kulu is not a winger and Richy is a decent striker, but nothing more. We desperately need elite players upfront for Ange’s system to work. Yesterday was a perfect example of how right now we have all the downside of his system (the defense completely exposed) without any of the upside, as our attack was completely absent. This is so true for me that if Kane had stayed, I’m 100% sure we would be fighting for the title. He is that good that having a functional, attacking team working around him would transform us into title contenders. Kane’s exit, and without a replacement, can never be understated enough

also, I think we massively overrated our midfield. Sarr will be a future star, but is not ready yet. Benta cur is still regaining form, Maddison recently is doing his best Holtby cosplay and Bissouma fooled us in the first 8 games just to return to his inconsistent, lazy self that Conte couldn’t trust, and rightfully so I would say. A functional and trustful 6 is a must for this style of play, as Rodri and Rice show for City and the Scum.

this change of personal is paramount to judge Ange’s work. Klopp and Arteta could only manage good teams when that happened for them. And although Ange is taking some very wrong decisions lately, we can’t judge him until he also have that.

I don't agree with all of this but I absolutely agree our forward options are poor overall and that we need serious firepower up front for this system to shine.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

I don't agree with all of this but I absolutely agree our forward options are poor overall and that we need serious firepower up front for this system to shine.

Arsenal’s forward options are Martinelli, Saka, Jesus, Trossard, Nketiah and Havertz. Not exactly world beaters either. It’s all about form and time within a system at the end of the day. The more time they have to learn the better they will be.

(Not saying we shouldn’t look at upgrades, just pointing out that what we have isn’t as bad as some have made it out to be)

 

[Trent Crimm]

Last thing I'll say but I honestly believe a second pre-season will work wonders, that's where the real tactical work and fine tuning happens and where we should have a squad that Ange can call his own after a few windows.

We've gone from a very defensive minded, counter attacking mindset to a possession based, almost gung-ho one and a lot of the players experienced both styles. I think a lot of the pre-season work was probably focused on how to attack and undoing the negative tactics and it shows in our defending, but another pre-season will fix that and we should see a more balanced, long term style of play next season.

I'm genuinely excited to see how we look after another transfer window and summer work. For the first time in a long time I trust the recruitment and we've seen it all before but we have some genuinely special players and characters. If we trim the fat, add the right supplementary pieces and it clicks then the future is very exciting.

We have one game a week. He has plenty of time to fine tune and get his message across. Think it’s the players that either aren’t listening/think they know better or quite simply can’t be arsed, phone it in, act contrite, pick up many bags a week. Repeat.

 

[spursgirls]

Wouldn't it be great if this happened?

 

[greaves]

We have one game a week. He has plenty of time to fine tune and get his message across. Think it’s the players that either aren’t listening/think they know better or quite simply can’t be arsed, phone it in, act contrite, pick up many bags a week. Repeat.

High intensity/pressing will wear out players over a season, which is what happened with Poch. Even with just one game a week. Stating the obvious, but a higher quality squad is probably the answer. Ange will know this. I think this is the most likely reason for the success of our first ten matches and the mercurial form that’s followed. Poorer, less sharp decision making and a drop in resilience, especially with players out injured/suspended, seem likely to be related. ‘It’s the squad, stupid!’ Though I am not calling you stupid.

 

[Trix]

The difference between Ange and the likes of Klopp, Guardiola, Artwata etc is that they're *capable* of being dynamic with their system and switching to a more pragmatic style if it's needed. We just do the same shit over and over again, "plan B is to do plan A better" is all good and well when games are being won but when they're not, the team just gets made to look totally impotent. And we're conceding absolutely comical goals because our coach and his team very obviously can't (or don't think they need to) coach a defence. "Have a fast centre back and hope for the best" isn't a sustainable tactic.

The alarm bells are getting louder.

I said all this back in October only to get shouted down and told I had an agenda against Ange. Despite winning games I kept saying this was not a sustainable way to win football matches, and we were lucking out on our opponents not taking chances, and it's even more obvious now. It's too easy to exploit our set up and I'm not changed one bit in my thinking that this is not a personnel issue it's a system one.

If things don't change in the way we look to set up, trust me, this will keep happening against well drilled sides that are happy to sit in and counter.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

I said all this back in October only to get shouted down and told I had an agenda against Ange. Despite winning games I kept saying this was not a sustainable way to win football matches, and we were lucking out on our opponents not taking chances, and it's even more obvious now. It's too easy to exploit our set up and I'm not changed one bit in my thinking that this is not a personnel issue it's a system one.

If things don't change in the way we look to set up, trust me, this will keep happening against well drilled sides that are happy to sit in and counter.

Because he's light in a few key positions this system gets exposed more than most, but as it's drilled more and key personnel are added it becomes harder and harder to play against.
I always think about Klopp's geggenpress that looked horribly exposed at first but as he changed the team so they looked less exposed. I think this is where we are.........I hope so anyway.

 

[Doctor Dinkey]

Arsenal’s forward options are Martinelli, Saka, Jesus, Trossard, Nketiah and Havertz. Not exactly world beaters either. It’s all about form and time within a system at the end of the day. The more time they have to learn the better they will be.

(Not saying we shouldn’t look at upgrades, just pointing out that what we have isn’t as bad as some have made it out to be)

Can't agree with that. Martinelli, Saka and Trossard are really outstanding players.

 

[philll]

I said all this back in October only to get shouted down and told I had an agenda against Ange. Despite winning games I kept saying this was not a sustainable way to win football matches, and we were lucking out on our opponents not taking chances, and it's even more obvious now. It's too easy to exploit our set up and I'm not changed one bit in my thinking that this is not a personnel issue it's a system one.

If things don't change in the way we look to set up, trust me, this will keep happening against well drilled sides that are happy to sit in and counter.

Yeah, the alarm bells started quietly ringing for me ages ago when Ange said in a press conference that all the big teams have a way of playing and they don't deviate from it no matter what. That's simply not true - they may have a "style of play" but they're all capable of setting up and playing differently, depending on the opponent and the game state (and they're all obviously coached to do so). The vast majority of the teams in the league can't go toe-to-toe with us so they've all collectively realised they can just sit back, keep us at arms length and nick something on the counter. Even the ones who can go toe-to-toe will probably play like that because it feels like a more assured, lower risk way to get the points.

Set pieces is a particularly annoying part of the problem, it feels like we're just throwing points away because our coaching on both offensive and defensive routines is shoddy and Ange is too stubborn to make changes (or, if he has, it isn't working because if anything, we're getting worse). I don't like him batting the questions away by saying "well we score lots from set pieces as well" because a) we don't, certainly not recently, and b) our form defending them is relegation-level. He likes to do it all in house but we had a really good set piece coach already in situ, we let him go and whoever's currently coaching them clearly isn't up to it. I believe it's Jedinac on defensive and Mason on offensive (or vice versa) but we're dreadful at both so changes are desperately needed.

I'm a million miles away from even thinking about wanting Ange out but he's going to have to adapt and improve. The question is, if that means compromising the way he *wants* to play, will he do it or will he just keep going with "plan B is doing plan A better"?

 

[RuskyM]

https://twitter.com/search?q=Klopp%20tactics&src=typed_query&f=top

Manager doesn't have a plan B, too stubborn, etc etc. Interesting.

 

[Trix]

Because he's light in a few key positions this system gets exposed more than most, but as it's drilled more and key personnel are added it becomes harder and harder to play against.
I always think about Klopp's geggenpress that looked horribly exposed at first but as he changed the team so they looked less exposed. I think this is where we are.........I hope so anyway.

Which key areas mate because a long ball over the top is causing as many problems as anything else. I agree that it can be tightened up and we can keep possession better cutting down opportunities, but not by much.

This is the Premier league. Opposition players are better than he's faced anywhere else and they punish you more than in Scotland, Japan or Australia, and that's the difference.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

https://twitter.com/search?q=Klopp%20tactics&src=typed_query&f=top

Manager doesn't have a plan B, too stubborn, etc etc. Interesting.

Can't be viewed unless you have a Twitter account.

 

[RuskyM]

Can't be viewed unless you have a Twitter account.

It's basically lots of Liverpool fans criticising Klopp's tactics with many of the criticisms being used against Ange here, verbatim. I think it's interesting because, not to sound too simple, if you win you're confident in your convictions and if you lose you're a stubborn fool.

 

[Sp3akerboxxx]

Because he's light in a few key positions this system gets exposed more than most, but as it's drilled more and key personnel are added it becomes harder and harder to play against.
I always think about Klopp's geggenpress that looked horribly exposed at first but as he changed the team so they looked less exposed. I think this is where we are.........I hope so anyway.

Klopps Liverpool conceded 42 goals in his first full season. We've conceded 49 so far.

They also never lost by more than two goals, and had a back 5 of Mignolet, Clyne, Lovren, Matip, and Milner

Iirc they had no recognised left back outside of Moreno who didn't feature much.

I'm pretty sure they played Milner LB mainly.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Which key areas mate because a long ball over the top is causing as many problems as anything else. I agree that it can be tightened up and we can keep possession better cutting down opportunities, but not by much.

This is the Premier league. Opposition players are better than he's faced anywhere else and they punish you more than in Scotland, Japan or Australia, and that's the difference.

Liverpool pressed so well that teams never had time to pick a pass over the top, but then Henderson et al dropped off one season and teams started getting time in midfield to start picking passes over the top (there was a 7 something against Villa and I remember the analysis focussed how much time Villa's CM's had).
I think a very mobile high quality DM, fox in the box striker who keeps their defenders occupied and can hold the ball under pressure and maybe a Gallagher type player for the really intense games

 

[Locotoro]

Which key areas mate because a long ball over the top is causing as many problems as anything else. I agree that it can be tightened up and we can keep possession better cutting down opportunities, but not by much.

This is the Premier league. Opposition players are better than he's faced anywhere else and they punish you more than in Scotland, Japan or Australia, and that's the difference.

For me a big improvement needs to be made in the 6 position defensively. Whilst Bissouma is good as press evasion in those specific situation where the ball goes over the top he's slow to close down the attacker or to spilt the CBs and make a three in the back line.
If we are playing with fullbacks high up the pitch then we need to work out have we are going to respond to the long ball over the top. City do it by having 3 CBs and a rodri in front to sweep up. If we have a 6 that knows how to position himself in the backline Romero and VDV can split can cover that fullback area more easily which helps slow the attacks down dramatically.

 

[funkycoldmedina]

Klopps Liverpool conceded 42 goals in his first full season. We've conceded 49 so far.

They also never lost by more than two goals, and had a back 5 of Mignolet, Clyne, Lovren, Matip, and Milner

Iirc they had no recognised left back outside of Moreno who didn't feature much.

I'm pretty sure they played Milner LB mainly.

The numbers are kind off irrelevant, Klopp's team are easy to get at, like us, but ultimately he was proved right when given time.