Manager Watch: Ange Postecoglou

[Trix]

Could that be fairly summed up as if he does not get what he wants he would not want to be here?

I don't think it's so much not being given what he wants as much as it's being given players he doesn't want. I think this is the same for most managers and was Conte's biggest frustration also. Wanting player A because "he is experienced and is a perfect fit for my system" and getting player B because, well, "we have it on good authority from his agent we can get him for a cut down price and he's nailed on to be worth a gazillion pounds one day".

 

[Larkinho]

We've played one game more than the absolute minimum possible. Tiredness is the lamest excuse.

But when you look at the distance the players were covering last season, we were bottom of the pile, so yes we haven't played as many games as others, but we're playing (and still learning) a completely different style to what they were all used to. Tiredness covers both the physical and mental.

 

[EastUpperDK82]

Ange Postecoglou dismisses Eric Dier's claims Tottenham boss refuses to carry out tactical work during training

Bayern Munich defender Eric Dier revealed last week that he felt Tottenham boss Ange Postecoglou never focused on tactical work in training; Dier was sold in January after making four Premier League appearances this term; Postecoglou says we dont do anything apart from tactical work

www.skysports.com

 

[DiVaio]

Seems like you and lots of others are missing / avoiding the point - which is why a £15M a year proven title winning manager (name irrelevant) would want to leave? Because I suspect most of the answers lead us to some uncomforatble home truths about OUR football club.

Because that £15m proven title winning manager did the same during pre-season of 14/15 season at Juve after claiming he wasn't backed enough to compete in europe with Juventus(Allegri played in CL Final 9 months later), did the same at Chelsea in 2018 and again did the same at Inter in 2021?

 

[aliyid]

Ange Postecoglou dismisses Eric Dier's claims Tottenham boss refuses to carry out tactical work during training

Bayern Munich defender Eric Dier revealed last week that he felt Tottenham boss Ange Postecoglou never focused on tactical work in training; Dier was sold in January after making four Premier League appearances this term; Postecoglou says we dont do anything apart from tactical work

www.skysports.com

God I hate journalists, just trying to create a story or animosity where it doesn't exist. Dier was very complimentary about Ange in his interview so why try twisting his words to position the question as though he's had a dig at Ange in a blatant attempt to get Ange to say something negative back.

The whole industry is set up to breed anger and bitterness. It's a toxic view of what the public want to see/read.

 

[Dunc2610]

God I hate journalists, just trying to create a story or animosity where it doesn't exist. Dier was very complimentary about Ange in his interview so why try twisting his words to position the question as though he's had a dig at Ange in a blatant attempt to get Ange to say something negative back.

The whole industry is set up to breed anger and bitterness. It's a toxic view of what the public want to see/read.

Ally Gold doubled down on it too... Which was disappointing

 

[Trix]

Ally Gold doubled down on it too... Which was disappointing

The biggest problem with Football London(apart from the vast number of adds) is the headlines are massively over sensationalised rarely match the articles themselves.

The question posed to Ange was misleading and asked purely to get a negative reaction out of him. Had he have been given Dier's full quotes he would have just agreed with Eric, which he basically did anyway but without any animosity. Ally has literally just transcribed what they've all said rather than "doubling down", but the headline as always with Football London makes it sound worse than it is.

 

[JW72]

The whole industry is set up to breed anger and bitterness. It's a toxic view of what the public want to see/read.

Was ever thus with the most popular media - toxic maybe but fuelled by public tastes, and very lucrative.

 

[TOLBINY]

Because that £15m proven title winning manager did the same during pre-season of 14/15 season at Juve after claiming he wasn't backed enough to compete in europe with Juventus(Allegri played in CL Final 9 months later), did the same at Chelsea in 2018 and again did the same at Inter in 2021?

He was sacked from Chelsea and that is a fact that we know of because of the court case that followed. Inter was due to their financial situation and cost cutting proposals.

 

[Timbo Tottenham]

He was sacked from Chelsea and that is a fact that we know of because of the court case that followed. Inter was due to their financial situation and cost cutting proposals.

Seriously. Stop spamming this thread please, you’ve been asked multiple times by multiple posters. I don’t want to put you on ignore because I appreciate some of your posts, but this is getting tiresome.

 

[HildoSpur]

He was sacked from Chelsea and that is a fact that we know of because of the court case that followed. Inter was due to their financial situation and cost cutting proposals.

Give it a rest mate - go to the Conte thread if you must go on and on about it.

 

[easley91]

All Dier did was explain the differences between managers from his point of view and he even said he loved the time working with Ange apart from not playing. "Journalism" now is about the soundbite and controversy.

 

[Dunc2610]

The biggest problem with Football London(apart from the vast number of adds) is the headlines are massively over sensationalised rarely match the articles themselves.

The question posed to Ange was misleading and asked purely to get a negative reaction out of him. Had he have been given Dier's full quotes he would have just agreed with Eric, which he basically did anyway but without any animosity. Ally has literally just transcribed what they've all said rather than "doubling down", but the headline as always with Football London makes it sound worse than it is.

By doubling down, I mean reported as it had already be reported rather than giving context which would've taken the rediculousness out of it!

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Reading one of Ange's books 'Revolution' - 'The Man, The Methods and The Mastery'.

I won't quote directly but around pages 100-110 some really interesting points and quotes from former players and colleagues etc:

• Ange is always thinking tactically about 'what is next' 'how can we play differently and in a way that no-one else is doing right now'
• During his success in the Australian league with Brisbane Roar and Melbourne Victory, he played this 4-3-3 but his teams tended to build-up in a back 3 so it was a 3-6-1, since then he developed his system to more the 2-3-5 which he played at Celtic and now at Spurs
• Ange hates his players crossing or shooting from distance as his philosophy is all about dominating the game and making your own luck and in his view a cross from deep or a shot from distance is a low xG type of action whereas the gold standard is always moving teams from side to side, sliding a pass in-between their fullback and CB, firing a cross across the box for someone to tap-in an easy goal
• Ange has ALWAYS been questioned and criticised especially early on in every job he's had its been the same 'the tactics are too open' 'its too attacking' 'this won't work' 'he's not experienced enough at this level' and every single time from the Greek league to the Australian A-League to the Australian national team to Japan and then with Celtic he has ended up delivering success
• There is no Plan B,C,D etc it is always make Plan A better, similar to the likes of Pep etc.
• He usually rips up squads so that he has players that technically can do what he wants and who mentally are bought in to what he wants
• He hates long balls, he says that no matter the players quality, it is far easier to do a 5-8yard pass and move than to play a 50 yard diagonal long-ball so it is far more effective to keep the ball with lots of quick short sharp passes and moves and moving teams side to side to try and open up that golden through ball
• The type of players he has means his system will always look a bit different, especially the profile of the inverted full-backs, the 2x 'n.o 8's' the wingers and the striker
• Ange is uncompromising in his tactics and his way, he fully believes it will bring success and he doesn't change it
• His utopia would be 'total football' where all of his players rotate positions and there are no 'defenders' or 'attackers'

Hope this is insightful and helps some to understand why Ange makes certain decisions.

Also history tends to show with Ange that if you give him time to build and mould the squad with what he needs that he is generally successful, of course this is his biggest challenge yet in terms of player and coach quality he is up against but I have every faith in Big Ange

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

Reading one of Ange's books 'Revolution' - 'The Man, The Methods and The Mastery'.

I won't quote directly but around pages 100-110 some really interesting points and quotes from former players and colleagues etc:

• Ange is always thinking tactically about 'what is next' 'how can we play differently and in a way that no-one else is doing right now'
• During his success in the Australian league with Brisbane Roar and Melbourne Victory, he played this 4-3-3 but his teams tended to build-up in a back 3 so it was a 3-6-1, since then he developed his system to more the 2-3-5 which he played at Celtic and now at Spurs
• Ange's hates his players crossing or shooting from distance as his philosophy is all about dominating the game and making your own luck and in his view a cross from deep or a shot from distance is a low xG type of action whereas the gold standard is always moving teams from side to side, sliding a pass in-between their fullback and CB, firing a cross across the box for someone to tap-in an easy goal
• Ange has ALWAYS been questions and criticised especially early on in every job he's had its been the same 'the tactics are too open' 'its too attacking' 'this won't work' 'he's not experienced enough at this level' and every single time from the Greek league to the Australian A-League to the Australian national team to Japan and then with Celtic he has ended up delivering success
• He usually rips up squads so that he has players that technically can do what he wants and who mentally are bought in to what he wants
• He hates long balls, he says that no matter the players quality, it is far easier to do a 5-8yard pass and move than to play a 50 yard diagonal long-ball so it is far more effective to keep the ball with lots of quick short sharp passes and moves and moving teams side to side to try and open up that golden through ball
• The type of players he has means his system will always look a bit different, especially the profile of the inverted full-backs, the 2x 'n.o 8's' the wingers and the striker
• Ange is uncompromising in his tactics and his way, he fully believes it will bring success and he doesn't change it
• His utopia would be 'total football' where all of his players rotate positions and there are no 'defenders' or 'attackers'

Hope this is insightful and helps some to understand why Ange makes certain decisions.

Also history tends to show with Ange that if you give him time to build and mould the squad with what he needs that he is generally successful, of course this is his biggest challenge yet in terms of player and coach quality he is up against but I have every faith in Big Ange

Thanks for sharing mate, very informative

All very promising but I’m pretty disappointed to learn about his distaste for long passing.

I’ve felt that a lack of long passing has been a real detriment to our team and was hoping we’d look to rectify that in the summer.

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

This current positional setup is defensive suicide when up against teams who sit deep and look to play long to pacy wingers i.e. the vast majority of midtable teams in this league.

If Ange has decided to stick this system, no matter the opposition, then that is akin to cutting off one's nose to spite one's face and we should have serious questions about whether he's the right man for the job.

Fortunately though, I don't believe that he's a stubborn idiot and in fact I believe that he is 100% aware that we need to change and even beyond that has actually already identified how to do that.

Our very strong links to players such as Simakan and Kossounou made very little sense to me originally as they seemed like very expensive signings for who would only be backup CB's.
However, I now fully believe/hope that their signings are linked to Ange now knowing that at times we need more help at the back and could play a Simakan at RCB and then could leave three at the back in possession. Having a super pacy CB either side of Romero would erase a tonne of the issues we currently face in defensive transitions.

This theory is also further aided by the constant strong links of a significant transfer for Gallagher, as this positional setup requires two 6's and two 10's with the 10's being box to box and strong box crashers, both things that Gallagher excels at.

And the final and most obvious piece of evidence for this is our strong links to the likes of Baena, Gudmundsson, Gibbs-White, Eze etc.

We've all been wondering, "Why are we targeting all these 10's that can play on the wing, rather than an out and out winger specialist?". Well I believe the answer to that is that the player is likely to be asked to play as a 10 just as often as they are as a winger.

We're playing a team not setup to counter us? We play our usual 433

We're playing a team sitting deep? We play 3 at the back with two 10's and no wingers.

All of our major transfer targets make complete sense when you take all this into consideration.

1. A pacy CB/FB that can cover equally well as a backup CB or FB in our usual 433, but also as a starting wide CB in the 3-2-4-1.

2. A 6 that can usurp Bissouma as the DM in our usual 433, but also could partner a second DM in the 3-2-4-1 pivot.

3. A player that can both play as a 10 or on the wing in our usual 433, but can also play as one of two 10's in the 3-2-4-1.




This is good video analysis of the setup, and below is a good write up about the setup.

What is the pragmatic side of the Socceroo’s attacking 3-2-4-1 formation?

Ange Postecoglou is characterised as a gung-ho attacking coach, but does he have a defensive side?

timpalmerfootball.com

As a litmus test to how this setup could work in the prem, Crystal Palace made it pass with flying colours yesterday making it look absolutely electric.



3-2-4-1 setup with two holding midfielders (6’s) in Wharton and Hughes and two attacking midfielders (10’s) in Eze and Olise forming a box midfield.

Width provided by the wing backs in Munoz and Mitchell. But both 10’s are more than comfortable playing on the wings so able to both overlap on the wings or underlap into the box depending on the situation.

3 Center backs holding while in possession, with the two wide CB’s (Clyne and Richards) being fast players able to recover for counter attacks and the Central Centre back (Anderson) being a very good ball playing defender able to both carry and pass the ball out of defence.

Now substitute in our
players for this system and you end up with something like this:

Player for player obviously we’re miles ahead of Palace except for probably the two 10’s and maybe Adam Wharton, but in terms of pure suitability for the system the players are fairly spot on.

So positions we could probably look to strengthen on for this system:

1: A fast RCB/RB that’s rapid i.e. Simakan

2. An AM/Winger that’s comfortable playing central and on the wing i.e. Eze, Gibbs-White, Baena, Gudmundsson

3. A DM like Adam Wharton who we were apparently interested in in January or maybe like Archie Gray who we’re interested in now

Bonus: A striker that’s more of a target man, with better holdup.

I really am so convinced now that we’re going to look to play two formations from next season, our current 433 obviously and the new 3241.

This is exactly what the current top teams in the prem (City and unfortunately Arsenal) are currently doing. Having two different systems trained and ready to go depending on the opposition.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

As a litmus test to how this setup could work in the prem, Crystal Palace made it pass with flying colours yesterday making it look absolutely electric.



3-2-4-1 setup with two holding midfielders (6’s) in Wharton and Hughes and two attacking midfielders (10’s) in Eze and Olise forming a box midfield.

Width provided by the wing backs in Munoz and Mitchell. But both 10’s are more than comfortable playing on the wings so able to both overlap on the wings or underlap into the box depending on the situation.

3 Center backs holding while in possession, with the two wide CB’s (Clyne and Richards) being fast players able to recover for counter attacks and the Central Centre back (Anderson) being a very good ball playing defender able to both carry and pass the ball out of defence.

View attachment 139822

Now substitute in our
players for this system and you end up with something like this:

View attachment 139824

Player for player obviously we’re miles ahead of Palace except for probably the two 10’s and maybe Adam Wharton, but in terms of pure suitability for the system the players are fairly spot on.

So positions we could probably look to strengthen on for this system:

1: A fast RCB/RB that’s rapid i.e. Simakan

2. An AM/Winger that’s comfortable playing central and on the wing i.e. Eze, Gibbs-White, Baena, Gudmundsson

3. A DM like Adam Wharton who we were apparently interested in in January or maybe like Archie Gray who we’re interested in now

Bonus: A striker that’s more of a target man, with better holdup.

I really am so convinced now that we’re going to look to play two formations from next season, our current 433 obviously and the new 3241.

This is exactly what the current top teams in the prem (City and unfortunately Arsenal) are currently doing. Having two different systems trained and ready to go depending on the opposition.

We shall see and great post in terms of all the effort and information you put in but keeping it really simple as I put in some of my summary notes from his book I'm reading, Ange doesn't tend to have a Plan B, he just makes plan A better.

I'll give you the direct quotes from the book:
"A lot of guys he got rid of at Brisbane Roar (before taking his new team to a 36 game record unbeaten run and title victory), became journalists and pundits/media experts. For weeks and months they would hammer him in public and there was nothing Ange could do because the results weren't quite there. And every weekend he'd have to read 'you're not good enough as a coach', 'your tactics aren't good enough', it didn't break him, quite the contrary, he just got stronger and you need someone like that to be a real leader.
He basically said 'If plan A doesn't work, make it better', even to this day I hear so many people talking about Plan B,C,D in football and what if the opposition play football like that or pressure like that? Playing styles constantly change but not with Ange, regardless of results even if he goes through a rough patch and in the beginning when we didn't have success and we lost a few games - he would not change his style ; there was never any room for doubt and to me that is key."

"Postecoglou's tactics are a twist on the flexible 4-3-3 model adopted by Rinus Michels, Johan Cruyff, Macello Lippi and Pep Guadiola".

Lets see in pre season and next season but I'd be pretty surprised if we changed our tactics much at all mostly just improve the personnel to implement said tactics.

Personally I'm intrigued to see how the remainder of this season goes as much as I love Ange, there is a fine line between confidence and believe in your ways and just also being a tad stubborn, if we get pounded by multiple goals in a good few of the remaining games then surely there is a case to be had for him tweaking the system at least to perhaps build-up in a 3 with the n.o6 dropping back between the back 2 CB's rather than always building up in a 2-3-5 but then again first 11 games of the season when we were flying it was working great so who knows if we sign some better players and start well next season we could be very good and consistent with these same tactics, its just a question of how much other teams have 'worked us out' a la Fulham and Newcastle recently and how much of it is just our form having naturally tailed off a bit because injuries etc have taken their toll on the squad this season.

 

[mil1lion]

It will be interesting to see what he does in the summer. I think it's clear some players just aren't fit for the system. However there's also some like Bissouma who don't offer the protection he needs with the advanced fullbacks. Yet he still starts so does he rate him a lot or just not have the ideal replacement? Some key signings could be the difference to make the system work effectively next season. Crazy to think this is the first time a manager will complete a full season in about 5 years. I hope we give him at least 3 years.

 

[Guntz]

It's funny how people were absolutely slating a back 3 this time last season - now some want it back

Football eh?

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

We shall see and great post in terms of all the effort and information you put in but keeping it really simple as I put in some of my summary notes from his book I'm reading, Ange doesn't tend to have a Plan B, he just makes plan A better.

I'll give you the direct quotes from the book:
"A lot of guys he got rid of at Brisbane Roar (before taking his new team to a 36 game record unbeaten run and title victory), became journalists and pundits/media experts. For weeks and months they would hammer him in public and there was nothing Ange could do because the results weren't quite there. And every weekend he'd have to read 'you're not good enough as a coach', 'your tactics aren't good enough', it didn't break him, quite the contrary, he just got stronger and you need someone like that to be a real leader.
He basically said 'If plan A doesn't work, make it better', even to this day I hear so many people talking about Plan B,C,D in football and what if the opposition play football like that or pressure like that? Playing styles constantly change but not with Ange, regardless of results even if he goes through a rough patch and in the beginning when we didn't have success and we lost a few games - he would not change his style ; there was never any room for doubt and to me that is key."

"Postecoglou's tactics are a twist on the flexible 4-3-3 model adopted by Rinus Michels, Johan Cruyff, Macello Lippi and Pep Guadiola".

Lets see in pre season and next season but I'd be pretty surprised if we changed our tactics much at all mostly just improve the personnel to implement said tactics.

Personally I'm intrigued to see how the remainder of this season goes as much as I love Ange, there is a fine line between confidence and believe in your ways and just also being a tad stubborn, if we get pounded by multiple goals in a good few of the remaining games then surely there is a case to be had for him tweaking the system at least to perhaps build-up in a 3 with the n.o6 dropping back between the back 2 CB's rather than always building up in a 2-3-5 but then again first 11 games of the season when we were flying it was working great so who knows if we sign some better players and start well next season we could be very good and consistent with these same tactics, its just a question of how much other teams have 'worked us out' a la Fulham and Newcastle recently and how much of it is just our form having naturally tailed off a bit because injuries etc have taken their toll on the squad this season.

Yeah fair point, but doesn’t that then contradict with first point from your original post on his book?

•Ange is always thinking tactically about 'what is next' 'how can we play differently and in a way that no-one else is doing right now

Also, isn’t the very example of the 3-2-4-1 formation that he used with Australia a perfect example of his willingness to change formation? And that he doesn’t always stick with the 433?

My take on it personally (And I could be very wrong) is that Ange steadfastly refuses to change from his footballing principles and philosophies i.e. high tempo attacking football and We never stop mantra etc.

But how he achieves these footballing principles and philosophies is very much open to change and he has no problem changing formations if he feels it will better achieve these goals.

What do you think?