Message to SC from the club...

[jurgenthegerman18]

No, it's not.

In snooker, the black is worth more than the pink. In football, all colours are equal.

Mmmmmmm, always better to take the easy pink over the hard brown.....

 

[Batspur]

of course its offensive.

 

[Akqayid]

So let me get this right...

The CPS doesn't think it is racist
The club hasn't said as Much but will clamp down it
UEFA have said they fine us in private
Addy has said that he's father was a teacher and his mum was a house wife

So no elephants, and no hookers?

That clears that up then as I thought we were clearly stating fact to someone that gets £200,000 a week.

Jesus

 

[MattyP]

So let me get this right...

The CPS doesn't think it is racist
The club hasn't said as Much but will clamp down it
UEFA have said they fine us in private
Addy has said that he's father was a teacher and his mum was a house wife

So no elephants, and no hookers?

That clears that up then as I thought we were clearly stating fact to someone that gets £200,000 a week.

Jesus

To be fair, I thought it was factual and only wanted to catch up with Ade's dad after he'd finished his cleaning job so we could grab a beer and I could sleep with his wife.

 

[Akqayid]

To be fair, I thought it was factual and only wanted to catch up with Ade's dad after he'd finished his cleaning job so we could grab a beer and I could sleep with his wife.

Ditto

Gutted now, I'm off to tell stompy he'll have to use the car wash

 

[striebs]

Dear Adebayor .

Your sister isn't doing it for the money , she's does it with Spurs Fans for the glory .

Give us your address and we'll send you the video .

 

[Batspur]

UEFA will send a high-ranking official to monitor Tottenham’s Champions League match against Real Madrid on Wednesday after Emmanuel Adebayor said English fans racially abused him during the first leg in Madrid.

Jacques Antenen, vice chairman of UEFA's disciplinary panel, has been named as the match delegate for the return leg at White Hart Lane. Antenen is also the police chief in UEFA’s home state of Vaud.
Adebayor asked UEFA to act after Tottenham fans chanted an offensive song at the Bernaneu before the former Arsenal striker scored twice in Real's 4-0 win.

Earful: Emmanuel Adebayor was subjected to controversial songs at the Bernabeu

UEFA claimed it couldn’t investigate because the incident wasn’t reported by its delegate, stadium security or police.
Meanwhile, Tottenham have warned their fans that offensive singing will not be tolerated.
Spurs accept the song, which contains the words 'Your dad washes elephants, your mother’s a whore' is offensive but insist it is not racist in nature.

That has not stopped anti-racism group Kick It Out from condemning the song, with chairman Lord Ouseley saying last week that it has 'racial undertones'.

Under scutiny: Spurs fans will be closely watched against Real Madrid

A club statement read: 'We have a fantastic atmosphere at the Lane and by working together we can prevent the small minority ruining it for everyone. You do not have to put up with mindless supporters who are intent on ruining your day, so use the system, report the individuals and let us take it from there.'
Adebayor admitted: 'Big players better than me have tried to stop that, but it’s not easy at all. We have done everything we can to show the red card to racism. But people are still into it, that’s part of life.

'We can’t do anything to stop it. Samuel Eto’o and big players have spoken about it better than I do, but it’s not stopped them

 

[Rout-Ledge]

You misunderstood me.
I think it probably is...and, as I said, twice, I really don't like the damned thing.
But it was found to be offensive but not racist. I was trying to imagine the type of input those who made a decision were considering. I still would imagine they would come up with these considerations...and due to there existence (or others like them) reached the conclusion that the chant was definitively racist. So, no, asking those questions wasn't totally irrelevant. Obviously, the fact that there are elephants in Indian means that the same song could be sung about someone from India - therefore, they aren't necessarily singing the song because he's form Africa (no matter how probable that interpretation is).

As seen as I had said twice that I didn't like the chants whether they were definitively racist or not, I would have preferred to have not used me as a taraget for PC point scoring. I was asking academic questions as that is what I am equipped to do. I nowhere said that these questions exculpated the 'transgressors', or proved definitively that the chant wasn't racist. I was merely, as an academic exercise, asking the type of questions that the people with the power, who have already decided tha chant isn't racist but it is offensive, would be asking.

Look at it from another angle: are people who are employed cleaning elephants inherently inferior = of course not, and you'll get a big argument from me if you say they are (perhaps that has confused you, maybe you did think cleaning elephants to be an inherently degrading trade). Racism is the inherent implication that all members of a given race are inferior. "People from race X are inherently less intelligent than people from race Y, irrelevant of academic attainment from individual members of that race" is a racist statement, unequivocally. "People who follow a trade that isn't inherently demeaning and do not necessarily could, theoretically, belong to any race in following that trade" is not clearly racist...even if you know that the context makes it clear that the inference if pretty much that the pursuint of the trade is almost definitely African and being singled out on that account. I repeat, there is nothing inherently demeaning or inherently African in cleeaning elephants - it shows the ignorance the originators of the song.

And I repeat, I don't like the chant, never have, and the people with the power to do so have declared the chant "offensive but not racist".

First off, I don't think there's anything wrong with cleaning elephants for a living

Secondly, whether its degrading or not to be called an 'elephant washer', the context of the chant would obviously suggest that its meant as an offensive slur. If it was meant as a compliment it would be 'your dad washes elephants but your mums a whore'...

I'm not 'PC point scoring' by the way, I'm really not that fussed about the chant, I don't think its particularly offensive, just stupid. I just can't see how its possible to interpret the elephant washing thing as anything other than a dig at his African heritage.

I disagree with your definition of racism by the way, I don't think its simply the inherent implication that all members of a race are inferior. There are more shades to racism than its most extreme forms. If I ban French people from my house and give the reason that 'I don't like French people', that's not necessarily stating that I think their race is inherently inferior, merely that I don't like them. It is still racist though, isn't it?

I think the chant is very mild racism, nothing to get worked up about. I would regard it as racism though, in that they are chanting about his African roots with negative implications. I think the CPS have deemed it not to be racist because it doesn't really cross the threshold between 'slightly jokey racism' and 'nasty racism'. It obviously suits them better to say 'not racist' than to say 'bit racist but get over it'

 

[striebs]

UEFA will send a high-ranking official to monitor Tottenham’s Champions League match against Real Madrid on Wednesday after Emmanuel Adebayor said English fans racially abused him during the first leg in Madrid.

Jacques Antenen, vice chairman of UEFA's disciplinary panel, has been named as the match delegate for the return leg at White Hart Lane. Antenen is also the police chief in UEFA’s home state of Vaud.
Adebayor asked UEFA to act after Tottenham fans chanted an offensive song at the Bernaneu before the former Arsenal striker scored twice in Real's 4-0 win.

Earful: Emmanuel Adebayor was subjected to controversial songs at the Bernabeu

UEFA claimed it couldn’t investigate because the incident wasn’t reported by its delegate, stadium security or police.
Meanwhile, Tottenham have warned their fans that offensive singing will not be tolerated.
Spurs accept the song, which contains the words 'Your dad washes elephants, your mother’s a whore' is offensive but insist it is not racist in nature.

That has not stopped anti-racism group Kick It Out from condemning the song, with chairman Lord Ouseley saying last week that it has 'racial undertones'.

Under scutiny: Spurs fans will be closely watched against Real Madrid

A club statement read: 'We have a fantastic atmosphere at the Lane and by working together we can prevent the small minority ruining it for everyone. You do not have to put up with mindless supporters who are intent on ruining your day, so use the system, report the individuals and let us take it from there.'
Adebayor admitted: 'Big players better than me have tried to stop that, but it’s not easy at all. We have done everything we can to show the red card to racism. But people are still into it, that’s part of life.

'We can’t do anything to stop it. Samuel Eto’o and big players have spoken about it better than I do, but it’s not stopped them

Bit rich after they allow all the spic clubs to abuse everyone .

Correct me if I'm wrong but is this Uefa's way of saying that they think the Mighty Tottenham Hotspur might beat their annointed choice and are looking for a reason to disqualify us ?

 

[Batspur]

I think thats nearer the mark. We are not considered worthy to be at Uefa's top table.

 

[Stavrogin]

I'm not 'PC point scoring' by the way, I'm really not that fussed about the chant, I don't think its particularly offensive, just stupid. I just can't see how its possible to interpret the elephant washing thing as anything other than a dig at his African heritage.

I disagree with your definition of racism by the way, I don't think its simply the inherent implication that all members of a race are inferior. There are more shades to racism than its most extreme forms. If I ban French people from my house and give the reason that 'I don't like French people', that's not necessarily stating that I think their race is inherently inferior, merely that I don't like them. It is still racist though, isn't it?

But it's not really a dig at his african heritage, It's more that it references it whilst trying to come up with a demeaning activity for his father. Africa is the setting, not the insult.

Whilst I agree racism is a complex topic, in the end it does come down to that simple implication that one race is inferior to another. It's distinct from racialism and from xenophobia. Don't forget that these specific kinds of prejudices were spread and encouraged to justify discrimination and exploitation, so it's a very clear and precise construct - even if, at the time, their concept of race was faulty.

So your example is not strictly racist, if your reason is based on nationality or culture then those are essentially social 'fabrications' that the person has taken up and define their identity. The reason racism is so much more abhorrent is that it's not about who you are... it's about what you are. It's not about what you do... but about dividing people into physiological groups and judging some superior to others.

I know that these days we tend to group of different kinds of discrimination and have a broader definition of racism (largely for logistical ease, i reckon) but in the end it does get reduced to that same historical interpretation. ie. If they declare that our fans have been singing racist songs, people won't appreciate any of the nuances of this particular case, they'll just think they don't like black people.

 

[dimiSpur]

What Uefa are saying is they are sending a high rank official there to monitor Real Madrid's progress. If we're 5-0 up and go through, he'll report us for racially abusing Adebayor, thus disqualifying Spurs from the CL and setting up their huge semi final that they've been dreaming of between Barca and Real.

As long as we don't win we're not racists.

 

[BoringOldFan]

Can you post the email?

An not unreasonable request, Batspur:

Hi Andrew
Hope all is well and you’re looking forward to tomorrow evening’s game.
Just wondered if I could call upon yourself and the Spurs Community administrators to put word out and about on your messageboard (and beyond) that there will be zero tolerance of any unsuitable chanting on Wednesday night.



We shall be closely watched and any start of the Adebayor chant will leave us no option but to remove and ban fans. Stewards will be using headcams on the day too so starting and stopping won't get fans off the hook.


You have always been v effective in the past at getting the message out so would be v grateful. We really don't want the reputation or the fine!
Best regards
Simon

Simon Felstein
Press Manager

 

[BoringOldFan]

Tell them we're stop singing it when we're 4 nil up

Job done

I think you'll lose your voice before then!

I understand that fans want to debate the rights and wrongs of the song, but all I wanted to get across was that the club is saying they'll take action against them if they do. I just hope no one gets ejected/banned as a result of it.

COYS!

 

[lifeof...]

As you have so kindly taken the time to reply to my post, I think it's only fair I do likewise.

1. Abusive chants about opposition players have existed for decades and will exist for decades to come. Were they to issue bans for anyone chanting or saying anything abusive then there would be virtually no-one left to attend games.

2.Ban all of the people that stand on the shelf or park lane because they have chanted "Terry, you're a ****, Terry, Terry you're a ****"?

1A. These are be the same people that generate all of the pro Tottenham chanting. You'll end up with polite applause from the West Stand and the occasional "We're the Paxton Tottenham" with no-one on the shelf or park lane to respond.

3.Are you seriously suggesting the club bans 20,000 people?

The same fans that, apart from one chant, received pretty much universal praise from the team for our unstinting support in Madrid, despite being hammered (the team I meant, though some of the fans were hammered too).

The same fans that have been widely praised for the atmosphere we have generated whilst supporting the team at home in our champions league expolits?

4.The CPS and Kick it Out have both said the chant isn't racist, they have said it is offensive. That's kind of the point. I have witnessed times where offensive chants have put a player off their game. I've witnessed times when it hasn't and the player has shoved it back down our throats with bells on by scoring.

If someone is genuinely out of order (i.e. overt racism) ban them. I agree. We are a pretty decent set of supporters for self policing against chants/comments that genuinely cross the line (in whatever form that takes).

5.But the way you have posted is more akin to watching lawn bowls than watching football.

I certainly would never get signed up for the PC police, But some of these points need picking up on.

1. whilst its true, there are also far more decades that it didn't happen, as someone pointed out this may well be a refection on society today, which is the saddest thing. Prior to the 70's Supporters cheered their team, created great atmosphere, it didn't have any abusive chants. After the game opposition supports / friends would chat honestly about the game. If they were to issue such bans, and stick to it, I think you will find, attendance would not be affected.
1A. i dont know if the 1st part is true, and i suspect neither do you, But I do know the 2nd part is a huge leap of imagination, and perhaps self justification.

2. I must be honest and say that, I have never understood why singling out an opposition player, If any thing it galvanizes them to play better, which is surly not the outcome desired. I remember many years back a Spurs V Arse game, We were very poor, but hanging on to 0-0. Then the Ian Wright chant started, I couldn't believe it, and after about 10 mins of it, Ian Wright pointed to our goal, and with in minutes scored, part of his celebration included pointing at the most vocal section of the crowd. Lastly the C word is just not nice, singing it doesn't make it any sweeter.

3. If the club did ban 20,000, I do believe the waiting list is 35,000, so no real problem there.

4. SO are you saying its ok to be offensive, but not Racist? isnt being racist, offensive? If a guy starts screaming at you and calling you / your family all the offensive names under the sun, for no reason other than you are in the same location as him, deserve a battering? and made to apologizes? But if he is playing a game of football, for the opposing team, its all ok?

5. The post wasn't, it was a POV, If you look up the word Support, i think you will find that it never even remotely mentions, being a offensive, abusive Fxxx wit to the opponent of your support.

If each set of team supporter cheered their team, sang and praised their team, and left out the moronic offensiveness, I honestly thin you will find, the atmosphere better, and the experience of watching the game more enjoyable.

 

[dimiSpur]

I certainly would never get signed up for the PC police, But some of these points need picking up on.

1. whilst its true, there are also far more decades that it didn't happen, as someone pointed out this may well be a refection on society today, which is the saddest thing. Prior to the 70's Supporters cheered their team, created great atmosphere, it didn't have any abusive chants. After the game opposition supports / friends would chat honestly about the game. If they were to issue such bans, and stick to it, I think you will find, attendance would not be affected.
1A. i dont know if the 1st part is true, and i suspect neither do you, But I do know the 2nd part is a huge leap of imagination, and perhaps self justification.

2. I must be honest and say that, I have never understood why singling out an opposition player, If any thing it galvanizes them to play better, which is surly not the outcome desired. I remember many years back a Spurs V Arse game, We were very poor, but hanging on to 0-0. Then the Ian Wright chant started, I couldn't believe it, and after about 10 mins of it, Ian Wright pointed to our goal, and with in minutes scored, part of his celebration included pointing at the most vocal section of the crowd. Lastly the C word is just not nice, singing it doesn't make it any sweeter.

3. If the club did ban 20,000, I do believe the waiting list is 35,000, so no real problem there.

4. SO are you saying its ok to be offensive, but not Racist? isnt being racist, offensive? If a guy starts screaming at you and calling you / your family all the offensive names under the sun, for no reason other than you are in the same location as him, deserve a battering? and made to apologizes? But if he is playing a game of football, for the opposing team, its all ok?

5. The post wasn't, it was a POV, If you look up the word Support, i think you will find that it never even remotely mentions, being a offensive, abusive Fxxx wit to the opponent of your support.

If each set of team supporter cheered their team, sang and praised their team, and left out the moronic offensiveness, I honestly thin you will find, the atmosphere better, and the experience of watching the game more enjoyable.

I think you'd be more suited to watching bowls, cricket or volleyball.

Ban 20.000 fans because we have a 35.000 waiting list? Are you for real? Seriously, I mean that question. Are you being serious or just kidding?

20.000 of the 36.000 sing abusive songs (not the Adebayor one). Of the remaining 16.000 about 10.000 of the West Stand and the Paxton are kids and old people, and of the remaining 6.000 most are away fans.

So you are in a minority. It's not like it's a new trend. Football chanting is abusive. From "The referee's a wanker" to "Wenger's boyfriend's only 4", most chants are focussed on abusing people. It's been so for about 40-50 years and it's not likely to change. I for one will always sing "Sit down you paedophile" to Wenger when he gets up at the Lane doing that annoying celebration he does, or moaning at the 4th official.

If that makes me a savage nutter, then I think the world is in a sorry state, where we've fixed alot of social problems and we're now just looking for problems that aren't there to solve.

 

[MattyP]

I certainly would never get signed up for the PC police, But some of these points need picking up on.

1. whilst its true, there are also far more decades that it didn't happen, as someone pointed out this may well be a refection on society today, which is the saddest thing. Prior to the 70's Supporters cheered their team, created great atmosphere, it didn't have any abusive chants. After the game opposition supports / friends would chat honestly about the game. If they were to issue such bans, and stick to it, I think you will find, attendance would not be affected.
1A. i dont know if the 1st part is true, and i suspect neither do you, But I do know the 2nd part is a huge leap of imagination, and perhaps self justification.

2. I must be honest and say that, I have never understood why singling out an opposition player, If any thing it galvanizes them to play better, which is surly not the outcome desired. I remember many years back a Spurs V Arse game, We were very poor, but hanging on to 0-0. Then the Ian Wright chant started, I couldn't believe it, and after about 10 mins of it, Ian Wright pointed to our goal, and with in minutes scored, part of his celebration included pointing at the most vocal section of the crowd. Lastly the C word is just not nice, singing it doesn't make it any sweeter.

3. If the club did ban 20,000, I do believe the waiting list is 35,000, so no real problem there.

4. SO are you saying its ok to be offensive, but not Racist? isnt being racist, offensive? If a guy starts screaming at you and calling you / your family all the offensive names under the sun, for no reason other than you are in the same location as him, deserve a battering? and made to apologizes? But if he is playing a game of football, for the opposing team, its all ok?

5. The post wasn't, it was a POV, If you look up the word Support, i think you will find that it never even remotely mentions, being a offensive, abusive Fxxx wit to the opponent of your support.

If each set of team supporter cheered their team, sang and praised their team, and left out the moronic offensiveness, I honestly thin you will find, the atmosphere better, and the experience of watching the game more enjoyable.

I'll try and tackle this as a whole, rather than responding to each point individually.

Football is a passionate game, in the throes of passion people say or do things they ordinarily would not do. And these are "normal people" in respectable jobs, not just those who reflect what some perceive to be a yob culture.

You stated that there are 35,000 people on the waiting list, so banning 20,000 existing season ticket holders wouldn't be a problem. It would if we wanted to fill a 56k stadium.

Where would it end - ban anyone that chants the referee's a wanker, because he found it offensive. Ban anyone that chants "you're not fit to referee" because he found it offensive and it was against the respect campaign?

I do think it is okay to chant offensive chants. Slightly self-defeating, as you say the opposition players in question often play better because of it, but as long as it is not racist then I don't have an issue with it.

As for if someone called me all the names under the sun on the street, I would turn a blind eye. It's only words and nothing that a complete stranger can say to me would even register in my emotional spectrum.

And I get paid less in a year than most of the objects of our abuse get paid in a week.

I do agree with the philosophy of your last paragraph and as I have said offensive chanting can easily result in the object of abuse playing better and is therefore counter productive. I just think banning people because of it is taking things way too far.

It is still the game of the people. Educate the people, don't take them out of the game completely.

 

[kushty]

I think you'd be more suited to watching bowls, cricket or volleyball.

Ban 20.000 fans because we have a 35.000 waiting list? Are you for real? Seriously, I mean that question. Are you being serious or just kidding?

20.000 of the 36.000 sing abusive songs (not the Adebayor one). Of the remaining 16.000 about 10.000 of the West Stand and the Paxton are kids and old people, and of the remaining 6.000 most are away fans.

So you are in a minority. It's not like it's a new trend. Football chanting is abusive. From "The referee's a wanker" to "Wenger's boyfriend's only 4", most chants are focussed on abusing people. It's been so for about 40-50 years and it's not likely to change. I for one will always sing "Sit down you paedophile" to Wenger when he gets up at the Lane doing that annoying celebration he does, or moaning at the 4th official.

If that makes me a savage nutter, then I think the world is in a sorry state, where we've fixed alot of social problems and we're now just looking for problems that aren't there to solve.

Wengers boyfriends is nearly 5 actually..........

 

[Max_Junglie]

Football is a passionate game, in the throes of passion people say or do things they ordinarily would not do. And these are "normal people" in respectable jobs, not just those who reflect what some perceive to be a yob culture.

Good points Matty, but this is a fine excuse for behaving like a twat. These are (mostly) adults, they all know exactly what they're doing. Your job, your social background etc doesn't define you as 'yob' - it's your behaviour, nothing else. Your actions define who you are.

I'm sure someone's written a PHD on these things to explain how they've changed, but chants aimed at opposition players seem to be a far cry these days from the good old staples like "he's tall, he's skinny and he hasn't got a willy, Lawrenson, Lawrenson" etc... That was just a bit of fun, no undertones of anything much there.

Anyway, BOFs e-mail makes it clear - we've been threatened with a fine if the song is sung tonight, so let's not hurt the club by trying to prove a point about it.

 

[ravo]

Adebayor
Adebayo-o-or
We don't care about your parents,
You're still a cash-mongering whore