Morgan Schneiderlin

[Sweech]

What inam struggling to understand with all of this is Liverpool and us are trying to prise al of southamptons players away from them. Does anyone here think that if Southampton had kept all of their players and I mean all, they would be challenging for top 4? I don't so how can Liverpool signing llanana, lambert, lovren, improve them As a team? If they signed them from a team level or above them, then maybe! A team that finishes bottom half then mid table, generally does so because their players are at that level. Granted you may get one or two players who will end up superstars like shaw but it's like everyone thinks the whole team are amazing. I think they have decent players with one or two having potential at being world beaters- but only potential! Shaw might end up like a nani- new Ronaldo off the production line never quite makes it. Lambert is very average. Lalana is average, lovrens ok.

They may be average and end up as squad players, but that's what top teams do, they have average to above average players as depth.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Modric played the Sunderland, Chavs and Boro games, got injured against Villa but was back as sub against Barcodes coming on late, then didn't play the Pompey game and was on the bench, played the Wisla game but was subbed, played the Hull and Stoke games but only came on as a sub against Udi. Given the limited number of games I don't think that made him exactly a regular especially given that he was our big summer signing and he was hardly setting the world alight (though that was understandable imo, not being played in a best suited role and needing to adjust)

So he basically started every single league game when fully fit, the only league he didn't start when available was Portsmouth and this was his first league after coming back from the inure, he then subsequently starts the last two league games under Ramos. He didn't start a couple of the cup games for obvious reasons I would imagine - i.e. not risking your big signing/best player who's just had an injury in minor cup games.

Hardly setting the world alight ? Not played where best suited ? He'd only been in the country for a hand full of games, hardly surprising he improved was it ? And some of those he was injured and Redknapp spent nearly two seasons playing him as LM as well.


After the first two games Bale started Chelsea, Villa, Wisla, Wigan, Newcastle, (missed Portsmouth), Wisla, Hull, Stoke (where he was sent off), Udinese.

So he started 9 out of the 12 games under Ramos, 9 of the last 10 under Ramos.


Do you reckon his percentage of starts the rest of the season came close to that under Redknapp ?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Holy hell talk about rewriting history.

Redknapp is the one who started moving bale around and giving him a free role or playing him from the right.

He played him there first against Norwich away, where he was outstanding, then reverted him to left wing for the next 17 games when he played him there against Chelsea away where he was again very good, he then reverted him to the left wing, including for a semi final against Chelsea five games later, saying "they" told him to.

Lots of fans SLATED him for this, wanting Bale to stay on the touch line and chanting about him being a left winger.

Exactly, what prick lets a bunch of dickheads in the stands ("they" presumably unless he meant Ferdinand, Bond and Sherwood) tell him where his player should be playing instead of playing him where he'd excelled and the team had benefitted.

 

[Barry Mead]

So he basically started every single league game when fully fit, the only league he didn't start when available was Portsmouth and this was his first league after coming back from the inure, he then subsequently starts the last two league games under Ramos. He didn't start a couple of the cup games for obvious reasons I would imagine - i.e. not risking your big signing/best player who's just had an injury in minor cup games.

Hardly setting the world alight ? Not played where best suited ? He'd only been in the country for a hand full of games, hardly surprising he improved was it ? And some of those he was injured and Redknapp spent nearly two seasons playing him as LM as well.


After the first two games Bale started Chelsea, Villa, Wisla, Wigan, Newcastle, (missed Portsmouth), Wisla, Hull, Stoke (where he was sent off), Udinese.

So he started 9 out of the 12 games under Ramos, 9 of the last 10 under Ramos.


Do you reckon his percentage of starts the rest of the season came close to that under Redknapp ?

We only managed 8 PL games before Ramos went, Modric was bound to get some games we'd just pretty much matched our most expensive signing, as for Bale yeah he was such a regular starter for Ramos he managed 9 games the previous season. Do you honestly think either would have been getting regular starts had they continued getting those results he was already trying different player

Neither at that stage were close to being the players we finished up with, don't get me wrong I was happy we signed both but whilst both there were raw talent the ability to best apply it wasn't there and it took time. Maybe if the overall team was stronger and better balanced it would have been a different story but it wasn't

I really can't understand the logic that suggest because later after being given some time to develop and starting to shine and as the team around them grew stronger people make the assumption that playing them earlier they were just going to be brilliant. First off those early games they did play in we were losing, if Bale and Modric were as brilliant as you seemingly like to imply why was that? I know it takes 11 players but if we had both Modric and Bale playing as well as they did by the time they left us they could have made a massive difference to those results, but sadly they weren't that influential then

The fact was we had a tough fight to get out of a serious relegation situation and we had better players to do that, it doesn't mean they were better players to win a title, but you need different strengths and qualities to fight your way out of a relegation battle than you do in winning the PL, so it is very much a case of horses for courses. We then consolidated and gradually then they got chance and had the platform to help them shine.

Look at Kaboul, thrown in at the deep end when we signed him, OK lots of injuries meant we had little choice, but it doesn't matter how good potential he had he struggled. Most players need the benefit of coming into a decent well balanced team and like Harry did with Eunice at Pompey, eased him in alongside experienced players so it happened with Bale and Luka. Good coaches do that, it helps players gain confidence, find their feet and get a solid platform to build on

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We only managed 8 PL games before Ramos went, Modric was bound to get some games we'd just pretty much matched our most expensive signing, as for Bale yeah he was such a regular starter for Ramos he managed 9 games the previous season. Do you honestly think either would have been getting regular starts had they continued getting those results he was already trying different player

Neither at that stage were close to being the players we finished up with, don't get me wrong I was happy we signed both but whilst both there were raw talent the ability to best apply it wasn't there and it took time. Maybe if the overall team was stronger and better balanced it would have been a different story but it wasn't

I really can't understand the logic that suggest because later after being given some time to develop and starting to shine and as the team around them grew stronger people make the assumption that playing them earlier they were just going to be brilliant. First off those early games they did play in we were losing, if Bale and Modric were as brilliant as you seemingly like to imply why was that? I know it takes 11 players but if we had both Modric and Bale playing as well as they did by the time they left us they could have made a massive difference to those results, but sadly they weren't that influential then

The fact was we had a tough fight to get out of a serious relegation situation and we had better players to do that, it doesn't mean they were better players to win a title, but you need different strengths and qualities to fight your way out of a relegation battle than you do in winning the PL, so it is very much a case of horses for courses. We then consolidated and gradually then they got chance and had the platform to help them shine.

Look at Kaboul, thrown in at the deep end when we signed him, OK lots of injuries meant we had little choice, but it doesn't matter how good potential he had he struggled. Most players need the benefit of coming into a decent well balanced team and like Harry did with Eunice at Pompey, eased him in alongside experienced players so it happened with Bale and Luka. Good coaches do that, it helps players gain confidence, find their feet and get a solid platform to build on

We can argue about Redknapp's influence on Modric and Bale all night long, but saying "Modric couldn't get a game before Redknapp got here" is just plain rubbish.

And the season before Redknapp arrived Bale was still 18/19, and we were also fighting from the bottom of the league (this time without Modric), hardly surprising he wasn't played more.

And in 08-09 Ramos clearly thought more of him than Redknapp (even picking him against Udinese after he'd been sent off against Stoke), who didn't give him a run until he had no choice because Ekotto got injured.

 

[Jospur]

We have spent something like £95m in recent Windows on attacking players (Eriksen, Lamela, Soldado, Ade, Paulinho) not to mention players like Townsend coming through so surely the priority is to build a team that allows them to do the job they were bought for?

Someone the other day posted a line up like this;

Ade

Eriksen Paulinho Lamela

Capoue Schneiderlin


IMO this is perfect for us.

I'm not convinced by Paulinho. He seems like a nice guy and tries hard but I'd be inclined to play Eriksen as the playmaker in the middle. And have Sandro instead of Schniederlin in the middle. I still think we need help on the left side - Bernard or Griezmann would be ideal in my opinion.

 

[thinktank]

We need to buy this guy.

 

[Jospur]

Seriously, some of you need to watch more football.

Schniederlin is an excellent player.

Sandro is better!

 

[DaSpurs]

Sandro is better!

When he's fit, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

 

[Mr Pink]

When he's fit, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

Not at certain things actually.

They're not totally like for like per se. He certainly wouldn't pass as well as Schneiderlin but would be superior in the tackle.

 

[Barry Mead]

We can argue about Redknapp's influence on Modric and Bale all night long, but saying "Modric couldn't get a game before Redknapp got here" is just plain rubbish.

And the season before Redknapp arrived Bale was still 18/19, and we were also fighting from the bottom of the league (this time without Modric), hardly surprising he wasn't played more.

And in 08-09 Ramos clearly thought more of him than Redknapp (even picking him against Udinese after he'd been sent off against Stoke), who didn't give him a run until he had no choice because Ekotto got injured.

You can argue or not argue a lot of things, but why argue that I said Modric couldn't get a game before Redknapp got here when what I actually said Modric wasn't a regular starter. Of course we can have a lot of discussion about what I didn't say, but if you like we can look at what I did say and maybe we can say Modric had hardly established himself as a regular starter.
It's hard to become a regular anything with such a limited playing time, it was pretty obvious Modric would start playing the early games, he was a big signing, getting a knock at Villa might have made things look harder to define, but I certainly got the impression that Ramos really didn't know what to do with Luka and he certainly wasn't helping the situation much with his performances, as I said not that I particularly blame him.
I don't buy your suggestion about not risking him against Pompey because he'd already been brought on against the Barcodes and if he was the best player you seem to imply then surely Ramos would have wanted him playing all the time. The fact is he wasn't our best player then, he was struggling to adjust, but given Ramos's situation trying to cling to his job had he been his best player then I am sure he would have played against Pompey and the Udi game. As far as I can see it he was a big signing that started a few games but then with the team struggling and Luka struggling as well, then for me he was at the stage Harry came in not really a regular starter for Ramos

The season before that was no different to the previous season in terms of start, we had a few injuries and a dodgy start that season but Jol got us back on track and to finish up to fifth, that next season he had two poor results and then Levy et al were caught dining with Ramos. So he was undermined and they replaced him but we never had the kind of relegation fight or fear at that point and when Ramos arrived there was enough scope for Bale to have played more.
That said I do though agree that young players still trying to establish themselves in a team, especially one that has been struggling and with the player still struggling, then they shouldn't be overselected. That's why I think it would have been a strange decision to have thrown him in the team in a free role. He had some great ability, he had a great engine, but Bale was not ready to be a regular starting left back, the position he'd been developed and gained recognition as, much less any other role. That took time and perseverance and then it took more time expanding his wing game and then into the far more complete free role, so again I don't get this idea that Harry was holding him back, simple helping him develop over a time.
Then of course it's all fine to say lets develop this player or that player, but being a good manager it's not just about developing two players but ensuring the team is developing and getting the best results. Bale's biggest step up came from the team getting CL, it allowed him a stage to show he could advance. If Bale had maybe played more the previous season rather than the roughly half who knows we might not have made CL to give him that stage

You can argue anything you want to you, that's your opinion, you can say Harry held Luka and Bale back, but for me Harry got it right, he helped them develop, he helped the team develop to better embrace them, other players were far more relevant to our gaining fourth and getting CL, but then having done so it gave both of them a platform and they shone and went on shining.

So I'll say it again the two players Harry inherited left the club far better than they were when he arrived, likewise he left the team in far better shape than when he arrived

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You can argue or not argue a lot of things, but why argue that I said Modric couldn't get a game before Redknapp got here when what I actually said Modric wasn't a regular starter. Of course we can have a lot of discussion about what I didn't say, but if you like we can look at what I did say and maybe we can say Modric had hardly established himself as a regular starter.
It's hard to become a regular anything with such a limited playing time, it was pretty obvious Modric would start playing the early games, he was a big signing, getting a knock at Villa might have made things look harder to define, but I certainly got the impression that Ramos really didn't know what to do with Luka and he certainly wasn't helping the situation much with his performances, as I said not that I particularly blame him.
I don't buy your suggestion about not risking him against Pompey because he'd already been brought on against the Barcodes and if he was the best player you seem to imply then surely Ramos would have wanted him playing all the time. The fact is he wasn't our best player then, he was struggling to adjust, but given Ramos's situation trying to cling to his job had he been his best player then I am sure he would have played against Pompey and the Udi game. As far as I can see it he was a big signing that started a few games but then with the team struggling and Luka struggling as well, then for me he was at the stage Harry came in not really a regular starter for Ramos

The season before that was no different to the previous season in terms of start, we had a few injuries and a dodgy start that season but Jol got us back on track and to finish up to fifth, that next season he had two poor results and then Levy et al were caught dining with Ramos. So he was undermined and they replaced him but we never had the kind of relegation fight or fear at that point and when Ramos arrived there was enough scope for Bale to have played more.
That said I do though agree that young players still trying to establish themselves in a team, especially one that has been struggling and with the player still struggling, then they shouldn't be overselected. That's why I think it would have been a strange decision to have thrown him in the team in a free role. He had some great ability, he had a great engine, but Bale was not ready to be a regular starting left back, the position he'd been developed and gained recognition as, much less any other role. That took time and perseverance and then it took more time expanding his wing game and then into the far more complete free role, so again I don't get this idea that Harry was holding him back, simple helping him develop over a time.
Then of course it's all fine to say lets develop this player or that player, but being a good manager it's not just about developing two players but ensuring the team is developing and getting the best results. Bale's biggest step up came from the team getting CL, it allowed him a stage to show he could advance. If Bale had maybe played more the previous season rather than the roughly half who knows we might not have made CL to give him that stage

You can argue anything you want to you, that's your opinion, you can say Harry held Luka and Bale back, but for me Harry got it right, he helped them develop, he helped the team develop to better embrace them, other players were far more relevant to our gaining fourth and getting CL, but then having done so it gave both of them a platform and they shone and went on shining.

So I'll say it again the two players Harry inherited left the club far better than they were when he arrived, likewise he left the team in far better shape than when he arrived

Modric was a regular starter in all games he could be reasonably expected to be. To claim he wasn't is disingenuous rubbish.

You think Redknapp did well because he did better than his immediate predecessors, I think he underachieved with the best Spurs team I've seen in 30 years. And his improvement of Bale in 3 years was in marginal increments more down to the natural maturing of a player, same Modric, there was very little tactical or coached variation in anything they did over that whole time. Contrast that with the quantum difference to Bale in one season under AVB or Modric's performances under Ancelotti last season when played in a 433. Redknapp tried this, it worked well and he still reverted to having Modric in a CM2 and Bale as a LW.

He hindered their careers with a complete and utter lack of tactical and technical application. All he did was pick them and he took nearly a year to do that with Bale.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

He hindered their careers with a complete and utter lack of tactical and technical application. All he did was pick them and he took nearly a year to do that with Bale.

LOL. Nonsense.
But as I said it's irrelevant and nothing to do with Schneiderlin- plus it's all in the past now.

 

[Barry Mead]

Modric was a regular starter in all games he could be reasonably expected to be. To claim he wasn't is disingenuous rubbish.

You think Redknapp did well because he did better than his immediate predecessors, I think he underachieved with the best Spurs team I've seen in 30 years. And his improvement of Bale in 3 years was in marginal increments more down to the natural maturing of a player, same Modric, there was very little tactical or coached variation in anything they did over that whole time. Contrast that with the quantum difference to Bale in one season under AVB or Modric's performances under Ancelotti last season when played in a 433. Redknapp tried this, it worked well and he still reverted to having Modric in a CM2 and Bale as a LW.

He hindered their careers with a complete and utter lack of tactical and technical application. All he did was pick them and he took nearly a year to do that with Bale.

I disagree, he missed the Pompey game and having had played in the Barcodes games he clearly could have been reasonably expected to play,he also didn't start the Udi, I think you are just using the obvious early games where he was bound to play to try and make your case, I think Ramos was starting to think about how he could fit him in and so not convinced he was ready to be a regular starter

As for Redknapp, oh I think he did really well, as said first of all some of the players that left as really excellent players that had a significant impact on the team were not that when he arrived
I think he was handicapped in his targets initially because of our position, he had to focus on players that could get us out of trouble and he couldn't afford to take risks, doubly impacted when Defoe got injured as I don't imagine he really wanted Keane back
I think the spend to get us out of relegation trouble impacted on his future ability to get money for transfers that would have improved our chances of pushing higher. I think Levy was shitting himself about getting relegated so allowed him freedom first window but then once safe he was reluctant to spend on a number of players Harry wanted because they didn't fit with his age and re sale value. I think Levy at the time was far more fixated on potential re sale values than immediate needs of the team
That said I do think Harry was a poor evaluator of strikers because I think he played a safety card getting Crouch when he should have got Negredo, turning down the chance to get Rossi when he thought he could get Fabiano and listening to those two dorks Sherwood and Ferdinand on Suarez
Against that I think he knew what made a team work, balance, experience, character, leadership and drive and he did his best to improve that in the team whilst Levy failed to support those efforts adequately.
As for Modric and Bale, I think Modric showed great qualities for us but we lacked the degree of quality players he has at Real, of course he'll look better because now he has the players making the runs for him, getting in good positions, scoring goals, interchanging passes, he was doing the same here but with less intelligent movement and less quality players
Bale was developing, AVB benefited from the fact that Harry had given him the free role, had helped him stand up to tackles, had helped him in ways to avoid doubling up, making players work with him.
I actually believe Bale would have been better still had Harry been around. Under AVB Bale literally had to do it all himself, Harry would have had the players working harder in getting the ball forward quickly and more fluidly to him and to him
So to summarise I totally disagree with you

 

[DaSpurs]

Not at certain things actually.

They're not totally like for like per se. He certainly wouldn't pass as well as Schneiderlin but would be superior in the tackle.

I certainly agree with this. I'm a fan of this move this summer under consideration of Sandro's fitness concerns, but I do think a fit Sandro is an absolute top notch CDM. Just not sure we'll ever see that kind of form from him again, and I think a move to Serie A would do him quite a bit of good.

 

[Mr Pink]

I certainly agree with this. I'm a fan of this move this summer under consideration of Sandro's fitness concerns, but I do think a fit Sandro is an absolute top notch CDM. Just not sure we'll ever see that kind of form from him again, and I think a move to Serie A would do him quite a bit of good.

I just see them as different players even though they perform similar roles as such.

 

[Trees]

When he's fit, I don't think anyone would disagree with you.

But when is he ever fit ?

 

[DaSpurs]

But when is he ever fit ?

As you'll see from my post above, I agree with you that it's a problem and do favor this move.

 

[DaSpurs]

I just see them as different players even though they perform similar roles as such.

Completely agree. Schneiderlin is very much of the Bundesliga mold of the "#6" position. So if the point you're making is "apples to oranges" and there isn't really a "better," I think you're right that's probably the most accurate assessment.

 

[Gloryhunter]

What inam struggling to understand with all of this is Liverpool and us are trying to prise al of southamptons players away from them. Does anyone here think that if Southampton had kept all of their players and I mean all, they would be challenging for top 4? I don't so how can Liverpool signing llanana, lambert, lovren, improve them As a team? If they signed them from a team level or above them, then maybe! A team that finishes bottom half then mid table, generally does so because their players are at that level. Granted you may get one or two players who will end up superstars like shaw but it's like everyone thinks the whole team are amazing. I think they have decent players with one or two having potential at being world beaters- but only potential! Shaw might end up like a nani- new Ronaldo off the production line never quite makes it. Lambert is very average. Lalana is average, lovrens ok.

I am also struggling to understand why Real Madrid persists to buy Modric and Bale from a team that struggles to qualify for the Champions League. How would that aid them in their Champions League quest? Dude not to piss out of you but talented players who play for lesser teams doesn't mean they at that level. It means lesser clubs bothered to take a risk and harnessed their potential or they started their career with the lesser clubs.