New Left Back

[Jamturk]

My problem is not with you airing your views but rather the way you (and others) do it.
It's widely known that Kaboul has been an unmitigated disaster this season but he's still close to people's hearts since everyone remembers him as a really good player. But like or not, he's been worse and more of a defensive liability than Rose has been this season and that says a lot.

I hate stats, whats their criteria etc..

 

[HobbitSpur]

My problem is not with you airing your views but rather the way you (and others) do it.
It's widely known that Kaboul has been an unmitigated disaster this season but he's still close to people's hearts since everyone remembers him as a really good player. But like or not, he's been worse and more of a defensive liability than Rose has been this season and that says a lot.

If you pro-rata those figures on games played, Rose has been a far bigger "unmitigated disaster" than Kaboul (Kaboul also had one of his red cards rescinded).

.... and you answer the argument a little with "he's still close to people's hearts since everyone remembers him as a really good player". The only good memory I have of Rose, although very very fondly, is his goal against the Arse.

 

[fecka]

If you pro-rata those figures on games played, Rose has been a far bigger "unmitigated disaster" than Kaboul (Kaboul also had one of his red cards rescinded).

.... and you answer the argument a little with "he's still close to people's hearts since everyone remembers him as a really good player". The only good memory I have of Rose, although very very fondly, is his goal against the Arse.

Those figures were per 90 minutes so they are completely fair and actually playing fewer games is more of an advantage since one really good game raises the stats significantly.

Yes, my point exactly. Noone has a really fond memory of Rose except that goal against the Arse while Kaboul had a really good half a season for us before being constantly injured. Another thing in people's mind's that red card against Aston Villa the season before Rose left on loan at Sunderland. You basically validated my point.
Rose has been far better than Kaboul and yet Kaboul basically doesn't get any stick at all while everyone keeps bashing Rose on a daily basis.
Rose is not good enough for Spurs but as I pointed out, not to the point that it's justified to ridicule him to the extent so many do.

EDIT: And while one of those red cards (still 2 afterwards) was rescinded, he still got himself ejected from a game for the third time this season in a mere 13 games compared to Rose's 1 in 22.

 

[fecka]

I hate stats, whats their criteria etc..

The criteria for these stats are very obvious. I'd understand if it were key passes or chances created but these are very simple, cold, hard, facts.

 

[HobbitSpur]

I hate stats, whats their criteria etc..

Those figures were per 90 minutes so they are completely fair and actually playing fewer games is more of an advantage since one really good game raises the stats significantly.

Yes, my point exactly. Noone has a really fond memory of Rose except that goal against the Arse while Kaboul had a really good half a season for us before being constantly injured. Another thing in people's mind's that red card against Aston Villa the season before Rose left on loan at Sunderland. You basically validated my point.
Rose has been far better than Kaboul and yet Kaboul basically doesn't get any stick at all while everyone keeps bashing Rose on a daily basis.
Rose is not good enough for Spurs but as I pointed out, not to the point that it's justified to ridicule him to the extent so many do.

So if Kaboul had one really good game in the extra games that Rose has played would raise his stats significantly?? Admittedly the opposite could be said but that is where Stats fall down. If we could just compare the Stats in the games in which they both played, this would give a fairer view.

However, as i have said previously stats are a bit of a pointless exercise. They focus on issues that do not necessarily reflect the actual issues, and can be be used to back up any argument.

What really matters is what they bring to the team during those 90 minutes on the turf every week. Yes they are going to make mistakes, and I would expect any central midfielder to make more mistakes than a full back purely based on the position they play.

If I had to keep either Kaboul or Rose, I would keep Kaboul every single time. He has had a bit of a rough season, and has not been part of a settled CB partnership all season, which none of our CB's have been, but IMO he is a far better footballer than Rose.

 

[HobbitSpur]

The criteria for these stats are very obvious. I'd understand if it were key passes or chances created but these are very simple, cold, hard, facts.

Could you include in the stats how many situations each player has been involved in that lends itself to a Stat, how many balls they have faced to make a said clearance/block, how many corners they have faced, how many attacks from opponents they have faced etc....

There are no such things as cold hard facts when it comes to statistics, just to use a famous quote "Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics"

Please this is not a personal attack on you at all fecka, or anyone else on here.

 

[fecka]

So if Kaboul had one really good game in the extra games that Rose has played would raise his stats significantly?? Admittedly the opposite could be said but that is where Stats fall down. If we could just compare the Stats in the games in which they both played, this would give a fairer view.

However, as i have said previously stats are a bit of a pointless exercise. They focus on issues that do not necessarily reflect the actual issues, and can be be used to back up any argument.

What really matters is what they bring to the team during those 90 minutes on the turf every week. Yes they are going to make mistakes, and I would expect any central midfielder to make more mistakes than a full back purely based on the position they play.

If I had to keep either Kaboul or Rose, I would keep Kaboul every single time. He has had a bit of a rough season, and has not been part of a settled CB partnership all season, which none of our CB's have been, but IMO he is a far better footballer than Rose.

Since Kaboul's sample size is smiller, if he has a really good game his average per 90 rises signifcantly more than Roses would at 22 but as you ponted out, of course it works the other way as well, yes.

You are partly right. The stats doesn't show how many times Rose or Kaboul was out of position for instance but it also clearly show's who's been the worse player on paper. Not agreeing with this is just being stubborn and closing your eyes to reality. Kaboul hasn't had a proper season in what now? 2-3 seasons? And yet people have this amazing belief in him despite that season a few years back only being 20 something completed games. We know how good Kaboul can be and has been, but the question is wether he will ever reach those levels again? From what I've seen, that is highly doubtful.
With Rose we don't really know his ceiling and he could very well be a revelation under Poch (Also highly doubtful). I'd sell both in the blink of an eye but my point isn't and has never been that Rose is a good footballer but rather the biased views people tend to have on some footballers and you have really made my case.

 

[fecka]

Could you include in the stats how many situations each player has been involved in that lends itself to a Stat, how many balls they have faced to make a said clearance/block, how many corners they have faced, how many attacks from opponents they have faced etc....

There are no such things as cold hard facts when it comes to statistics, just to use a famous quote "Lies, Damn Lies & Statistics"

Please this is not a personal attack on you at all fecka, or anyone else on here.

Stats are not collected selectively out of a match but counted and inserted. So any situation that arises in a game would be counted. So for instance, every won header in every heading situation would be a won header. Every pass completed is a completed pass. Every block completed is a block completed and so on. Every misplaced pass that leads to a goal is an error leading to a goal etc.

Like I said, I would understand if you were doubting stats about positional play, key passes or chances created but these are very simply stats that can't really be interpreted in many ways unless you want to bend them to your own truth.

 

[fecka]

Excuse me for being frank but that is a bit of a silly question. Stats are not collected selectively out of a match but counted and inserted. So any situation that arises in a game would be counted. So for instance, every won header in every heading situation would be a won header. Every pass completed is a completed pass. Every block completed is a block completed and so on. Every misplaced pass that leads to a goal is an error leading to a goal etc.

Like I said, I would understand if you were doubting stats about positional play, key passes or chances created but these are very simply stats that can't really be interpreted in many ways unless you want to bend them to your own truth.

And while I understand that you're telling me that every game is different, that may be true and there is always a variable that cannot be counted. There's always a margin for error but in this case not enough to dismiss the importance of stats as a whole.

 

[HobbitSpur]

Excuse me for being frank but that is a bit of a silly question. Stats are not collected selectively out of a match but counted and inserted. So any situation that arises in a game would be counted. So for instance, every won header in every heading situation would be a won header. Every pass completed is a completed pass. Every block completed is a block completed and so on. Every misplaced pass that leads to a goal is an error leading to a goal etc.

Like I said, I would understand if you were doubting stats about positional play, key passes or chances created but these are very simply stats that can't really be interpreted in many ways unless you want to bend them to your own truth.

If Kaboul plays more games against teams that play long balls into the box then his duties will be called upon more than those of Rose, as would be the case if the opponents had more corners.

I am not being stubborn or closing my eyes to anything, but accept the stats that are being used here are to say the least open to interpretation.

 

[fecka]

If Kaboul plays more games against teams that play long balls into the box then his duties will be called upon more than those of Rose, as would be the case if the opponents had more corners.

I am not being stubborn or closing my eyes to anything, but accept the stats that are being used here are to say the least open to interpretation.

The fact that you're dismissing them as a whole because they don't suit your opinion is enough for me. If anything the fact that Kaboul is a CB should have all his stats towering over Rose, especially in blocks, defense score, interceptions and tackles won but they aren't. He only barely wins out in interceptions and by about 15% in aerial duels won. And 3 red cards is still 3 red cards. How many other players in the league had as many or more red cards than that this season in the PL? I bet it's quite a select few.

EDIT: Only 6 players had 2 red cards or more this season and Kaboul played about half or less the amount of games than the rest.

 

[HobbitSpur]

The fact that you're dismissing them as a whole because they don't suit your opinion is enough for me. If anything the fact that Kaboul is a CB should have all his stats towering over Rose, especially in blocks, defense score, interceptions and tackles won but they aren't. He only barely wins out in interceptions and by about 15% in aerial duels won. And 3 red cards is still 3 red cards. How many other players in the league had as many or more red cards than that this season in the PL? I bet it's quite a select few.

EDIT: Only 6 players had 2 red cards or more this season and Kaboul played about half or less the amount of games than the rest.

It could be said that you are dismissing the failings of Statistics in order to cement your opinion, I am using common sense and knowledge over and above just pure statistics. I take it that you think that Peter Crouch, Frazier Campbell or Peter Odemwingie or as good as or better striker than Soldado based purely on Statistics. There are far more aspects that come into play than Statistics.

The aerial dual stat is the only one quoted as a percentage which is a far more telling reflection than purely a number. (and Kaboul wins this)

I am not dismissing the stats because they don't suit my opinion, stats are purely one part of the bigger picture. If Stats were the only thing that mattered then Scouting would be a very easy job.

P.S.
Kaboul only received one red card, the card against Chelsea was rescinded

 

[THFCSPURS19]

I've changed my mind about Danny Rose after watching this immense highlights video:

 

[Dharmabum]

He only played full back because Piszczek was injured. He is primarily a winger who has the ability to fill in at full back.

I did not say he's a better RB than Piszczek - just that Großkreutz is a very capable FB and not just an emergency defender.

 

[Barry Mead]

Those figures were per 90 minutes so they are completely fair and actually playing fewer games is more of an advantage since one really good game raises the stats significantly.

Yes, my point exactly. Noone has a really fond memory of Rose except that goal against the Arse while Kaboul had a really good half a season for us before being constantly injured. Another thing in people's mind's that red card against Aston Villa the season before Rose left on loan at Sunderland. You basically validated my point.
Rose has been far better than Kaboul and yet Kaboul basically doesn't get any stick at all while everyone keeps bashing Rose on a daily basis.
Rose is not good enough for Spurs but as I pointed out, not to the point that it's justified to ridicule him to the extent so many do.

EDIT: And while one of those red cards (still 2 afterwards) was rescinded, he still got himself ejected from a game for the third time this season in a mere 13 games compared to Rose's 1 in 22.

Sorry but Kaboul hasn't been the first choice CB and Rose has been the first choice LB. Rose may have had an injury that kept him out some weeks but Kaboul has had an injury problem that has kept him out a huge amount of time
Irrespective of dubious stats comparing both players the reality is that Rose has always been a weak link at left back whereas pre injury Kaboul was excellent at CB. Hardly surprising fans are a bit more prepared to be kinder to Eunice when he is struggling to get his game back on track-they know he has been able to produce the good-Rose never has
Now it might be that Eunice's injuries mean he can no longer reach his pre injury levels and we may need to replace him, but that doesn't make Rose a better left back and surely that is what this thread is all about no?

 

[fecka]

Sorry but Kaboul hasn't been the first choice CB and Rose has been the first choice LB. Rose may have had an injury that kept him out some weeks but Kaboul has had an injury problem that has kept him out a huge amount of time
Irrespective of dubious stats comparing both players the reality is that Rose has always been a weak link at left back whereas pre injury Kaboul was excellent at CB. Hardly surprising fans are a bit more prepared to be kinder to Eunice when he is struggling to get his game back on track-they know he has been able to produce the good-Rose never has
Now it might be that Eunice's injuries mean he can no longer reach his pre injury levels and we may need to replace him, but that doesn't make Rose a better left back and surely that is what this thread is all about no?

Like I said, this was never a discussion whether Rose was a good left back or not but that Rose has been a better player than Kaboul this season and still get's way more stick because he is who he is. I'd sell both in a heartbeat. I agree though with your argument about Rose being the starting LB and Kaboul being a backup CB this season.

 

[fatpiranha]

If we want a cheap option at LB (even if only as a back up) Junior Diaz wouldn't be a bad shout.

 

[Dharmabum]

After today's display an eventual transfer fee of Ricordo Rodriquez will be slashed by 10M, at least

 

[SpurSince57]

It could be said that you are dismissing the failings of Statistics in order to cement your opinion, I am using common sense and knowledge over and above just pure statistics. I take it that you think that Peter Crouch, Frazier Campbell or Peter Odemwingie or as good as or better striker than Soldado based purely on Statistics. There are far more aspects that come into play than Statistics.

The aerial dual stat is the only one quoted as a percentage which is a far more telling reflection than purely a number. (and Kaboul wins this)

I am not dismissing the stats because they don't suit my opinion, stats are purely one part of the bigger picture. If Stats were the only thing that mattered then Scouting would be a very easy job.

P.S.
Kaboul only received one red card, the card against Chelsea was rescinded

If we're looking at EPL performances alone, then Crouchinho, Campbell and Odemwingie have been more effective than Soldado.

The important point is the one Barry makes. Kaboul, sadly, was a near-pitiful sight last season, but in 2011-12 seemed to have finally developed into the top CB he was billed as way back in 2007; Rose has never looked like a top LB, or even an adequate one.

 

[godemand]

I've changed my mind about Danny Rose after watching this immense highlights video:

I'm not one to mock our own, but unfortunately he has played more than three games...