New penalty shootout system?

Led's Zeppelin

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#21
What would you suggest as a serious alternative? As you say you need a winner when playing tournament football, so what's the solution? Penalties aren't perfect, but at least they are a part of the game. Using some random statistic to determine the outcome would be awful. If you did it on shots you'd just get a ton of shots from distance each game, if you did it on fouls the ref has a massive influence and is under huge pressure.
I could come up with alternatives, as could anyone, but as you say they would all be imperfect so yes, you may as well stick with penalties to decide who goes through to the next round. (I think you dismiss awarding the result to the team committing fewest fouls too easily, but in a way that's a different discussion, about the role of referees. I like it because it rewards fair play and punishes cynical "professional" fouls, and the problem of diving and cheating already distorts results so it needs to be eliminated anyway. But I accept it's not going to happen because the authorities are too weak to deal with these problems effectively.)

But my objection to penalties really concerns finals. I think that if two teams draw perhaps the most important match in their entire season, the result should stand. If commercial reasons prevent a replay, share the trophy. It's a game. No one will suffer. It will reflect what really happened, it would be the true result.

I honestly believe the need for a victory when nobody actually won is a kind of infantilisation. It also relatively diminishes the achievement of teams who genuinely won the final outright, by beating their opponent in a proper football match rather than a subsidiary competition.

I'm not as fanatical about it as all these posts make me sound, by the way! I don't spend long thinking about it. But I do think they are an unnecessary distortion of the game itself and I'd love to see them removed wherever possible.
 

nailsy

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#22
I could come up with alternatives, as could anyone, but as you say they would all be imperfect so yes, you may as well stick with penalties to decide who goes through to the next round. (I think you dismiss awarding the result to the team committing fewest fouls too easily, but in a way that's a different discussion, about the role of referees. I like it because it rewards fair play and punishes cynical "professional" fouls, and the problem of diving and cheating already distorts results so it needs to be eliminated anyway. But I accept it's not going to happen because the authorities are too weak to deal with these problems effectively.)

But my objection to penalties really concerns finals. I think that if two teams draw perhaps the most important match in their entire season, the result should stand. If commercial reasons prevent a replay, share the trophy. It's a game. No one will suffer. It will reflect what really happened, it would be the true result.

I honestly believe the need for a victory when nobody actually won is a kind of infantilisation. It also relatively diminishes the achievement of teams who genuinely won the final outright, by beating their opponent in a proper football match rather than a subsidiary competition.

I'm not as fanatical about it as all these posts make me sound, by the way! I don't spend long thinking about it. But I do think they are an unnecessary distortion of the game itself and I'd love to see them removed wherever possible.
Interesting idea about just calling the final a draw, but it could turn a lot of finals into non events as you'd probably get quite a few teams going into the final content to play for a draw.
 

Led's Zeppelin

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#23
Interesting idea about just calling the final a draw, but it could turn a lot of finals into non events as you'd probably get quite a few teams going into the final content to play for a draw.
True.

But I get the impression that quite of the few weaker teams in finals play for a draw now. You see it as the game progresses into what should be the more exciting later stages, and they know they've got a better chance of winning a shoot-out than the match itself.

There's no perfect answer. I wish the authorities would be prepared to experiment more in smaller competitions, and not just with shoot-out alternatives but plenty of other innovations that might improve the game like sin-bins for serious but not sending-off-serious offences, video tec and so on.
 

Spurger King

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Thread starter #24
True.

But I get the impression that quite of the few weaker teams in finals play for a draw now. You see it as the game progresses into what should be the more exciting later stages, and they know they've got a better chance of winning a shoot-out than the match itself.

There's no perfect answer. I wish the authorities would be prepared to experiment more in smaller competitions, and not just with shoot-out alternatives but plenty of other innovations that might improve the game like sin-bins for serious but not sending-off-serious offences, video tec and so on.
I can't think of many better alternatives. Physically most players are shattered after extra time anyway. Maybe extra time without goalkeepers and five v five!

I remember back when the World Cup was in the US in '94 the yanks were debating how to change football to be more appealing to their country. One of the ideas was to divide the pitch up into zones, with goals scored from further out being worth more points. A ridiculous idea when you consider that Maradona's solo goal v England was eventually scored from about 3 yards, and would be worth less than a deflected cross from 30 yards, but it would be good if the quality of goals could become a factor somehow.
 

dontcallme

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#25
Can't they just do ice hockey style penalties where the penalty taker dribbles the ball up the area and has a one on one?
 

Stavrogin

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#26
I could come up with alternatives, as could anyone, but as you say they would all be imperfect so yes,
Not all.

For example, a fifth or sixth referee could control a small drone and fly it about the pitch during the match. The height could be limited such that players could jump up and tap it. Everytime someone taps the drone they get a point, and this score could determine the result of the match in case of a draw. My thinking is that the drone operator should be blind-folded, so they cannot influence the match intentionally. However, it will provide a tactical aspect as players may opt to chase the drone and potentially go offside or play people onside. Real tactical nous and footballing intelligence is required.

I envision that for significant matches the drone operator will be a celebrity. This has a significant advantage in an age when world and european championships are taking place in multiple countries. Instead of USA/Canada/Mexico 2030, we can call it Javier Bardem 2030. Very efficient and a good opportunity for cross product marketing.

There are plenty of solutions if you really think about it.
 

Led's Zeppelin

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#27
Not all.

For example, a fifth or sixth referee could control a small drone and fly it about the pitch during the match. The height could be limited such that players could jump up and tap it. Everytime someone taps the drone they get a point, and this score could determine the result of the match in case of a draw. My thinking is that the drone operator should be blind-folded, so they cannot influence the match intentionally. However, it will provide a tactical aspect as players may opt to chase the drone and potentially go offside or play people onside. Real tactical nous and footballing intelligence is required.

I envision that for significant matches the drone operator will be a celebrity. This has a significant advantage in an age when world and european championships are taking place in multiple countries. Instead of USA/Canada/Mexico 2030, we can call it Javier Bardem 2030. Very efficient and a good opportunity for cross product marketing.

There are plenty of solutions if you really think about it.
To repeat myself: "I could come up with alternatives, as could anyone, but as you say they would all be imperfect ".

Or stupid! :)
 

aliyid

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#28
Like the idea of starting extra time 11v11 and you lose a player every 3mins (so after 9mins it'll be 8v8, 15mins 6v6, etc...) teams get to choose who is taken off.

Leads to Interesting tactical decision of keeping attacking players on to exploit space or take off tired players

Stays half an hour for extra time guaranteeing goals and if still level after 30mins both managers stand on opposite goal lines with ball in centre circle and first to score wins (mainly as I think Poch would beat most managers in a race)
 

Spurger King

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Thread starter #31
I like this better than penalties.

Why didn't golden goals work?
I think teams were too afraid of conceding, so ended up playing negative football. At least with normal extra-time you can take risks and still have time to rectify any mistake.

The problem with a one v one Ice Hockey-style approach is that you'd just end up with keepers fouling the attacker, or the attacker diving for a penalty. Imagine marginal decisions for every other player. It would be a farce.
 

npearl4spurs

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#32
I think teams were too afraid of conceding, so ended up playing negative football. At least with normal extra-time you can take risks and still have time to rectify any mistake.

The problem with a one v one Ice Hockey-style approach is that you'd just end up with keepers fouling the attacker, or the attacker diving for a penalty. Imagine marginal decisions for every other player. It would be a farce.
But it isn't that way in hockey is it? I actually don't know the answer because I don't watch it
 

Krule

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#33
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