New Stadium Details And Discussions

[JimmyG2]

Innocent until proven guilty, my friend......and that should also be our assumption.

There are many posters who assume that we requested that PKF obtain Brady's 'phone records and are able to disguise the fact. Why the hell should we? The whole Olympic Stadium process has been so shambolic, and clearly managed by idiots, that there is almost certainly no need to break any laws in order to obtain incriminating - or at least compromising - evidence of incompetence and/or corruption.

My assumption is that PKF - or an employee thereof - did this off his or her own bat, and it has absolutely bugger all to do with THFC. The rest is all smoke and mirrors from Brady and the Dildo Brothers to draw attention away from their own shabby dealings.

Your assumption is as good as anyone else's at this stage, though how you get to be on the wrong side of every argument puzzles me.
Though you would no doubt say the same about me.

This smells to me and the idea that the sequence of events after hiring a firm of 'Forensic Accountants (What's that all about then?) is nothing to do with THFC is unlikely.
WE didn't act illegally but someone acting on our behalf or even their behalf seems to have done.
Two people have been arrested after all.
The Murdochs denials come to mind here and we know how that all unravelled.
Its not even about the truth if that ever comes out but about how it looks; the effect on current players; prospective players; the effect on people we hope to influence for the NPD,(Boris, Lammy, Haringey Council; prospective investors; Jan Brewer; Harry Hawkins etc ).
I'm more a cock-up man than a conspiracy one but I'm doubtful to say the least from my own experience of the business world.
It's about reputation and integrity both of which may take a battering whether we are innocent or not.

 

[sloth]

To make it appear that we hadn't?

Brady's action is at present only against PKF/Hill, whom Spurs engaged to—well, we punters don't know precisely what the 'club' engaged them to do, do we? All we know is that, in the course of whatever it was they'd been commissioned to do, they somehow managed to acquire Brady's phone records. We've had two arrests already, and those are liable to result in criminal, not civil proceedings, for all we know this could be only the tip of the iceberg.

I may be over-reacting, but I'm simply amazed that so many people can so blithely shrug off not only this, but the possibility that matters could get a good deal worse. 'They won't be able to pin anything on us, so who cares?' Great attitude.

Yes, I'm aware people form opinions on the basis of fuck all. There's ample evidence of that in this thread. Arsenal got public funding for the Immigrants because the Dear Leader said so. BoJo told the Dear Leader that it would be OK to rip up the running track.

In life there are only two certainties: doubt and death.

We usually start going wrong when we make up our mind about something and then seek to prove why we're right. If you want to hypothesise with scant access to the facts then at the very least spend a bit of effort thinking up scenarios to disprove your prejudice.

In this thread your pre-judged notion of Levy's North Korean like mendacity and manipulative ways has led you to see hidden motives and dark machinations in everything from his statements on the public support Arsenal got for their stadium to this latest court case.

It may be that Levy or the club will be proven guilty of something, or even that it will become clear we're guilty of something even if it can't quite be proven in a court of law (see James Murdoch for an example of this kind of guilt, or Tony Blair and Iraq) in which case I and many others will care, until that happens though it is utterly pointless to speculate.

 

[SpurSince57]

Been browsing this interesting thread for a while now and I am getting the same feeling myself, but kept it to myself incase I was wrong, but if others see it...

Prob because Levy dared move us out of NL I guess, but who knows, but I think some people will hold a grudge over that, obviously those against it, no matter how much good he has done.

All the 'our dear leader' comments for example, seems like they weren't in a positive light to me, unless I am taking it the wrong way, not always easy to tell on the net.

But I know this, Levy is the best chairman in my lifetime as a Spurs fan and one of the best in the top flight easily, the fact I actually see supporters of other clubs praise him and how Spurs are run, including from our rival fans in some cases, says it all really.

Edit* But we are all entitled to our opinions, even if we don't agree with them :wink:

I wouldn't disagree in the slightest with that. However, that does not mean I have to accept without question every public statement he makes, particularly when it's crashingly obvious that such statements are wild exaggerations if not outright lies.

 

[SpurSince57]

In life there are only two certainties: doubt and death.

We usually start going wrong when we make up our mind about something and then seek to prove why we're right. If you want to hypothesise with scant access to the facts then at the very least spend a bit of effort thinking up scenarios to disprove your prejudice.

In this thread your pre-judged notion of Levy's North Korean like mendacity and manipulative ways has led you to see hidden motives and dark machinations in everything from his statements on the public support Arsenal got for their stadium to this latest court case.

It may be that Levy or the club will be proven guilty of something, or even that it will become clear we're guilty of something even if it can't quite be proven in a court of law (see James Murdoch for an example of this kind of guilt, or Tony Blair and Iraq) in which case I and many others will care, until that happens though it is utterly pointless to speculate.

What crap you talk. Are you suggesting that PKF/Hill didn't obtain Brady's phone records? Or that no-one disputes these were originally obtained illegally? Do you think that—assuming the police gather sufficient evidence—the two men who have been arrested already will not face criminal rather than civil charges?

Speaking of facts, have you found any to support Levy's statement that Arsenal received public funding? Your last effort didn't quite cut the mustard, did it?

Yes, I have a 'pre-judged notion' of Levy's mendacity because he's lied on several occasions.

 

[sloth]

What crap you talk. Are you suggesting that PKF/Hill didn't obtain Brady's phone records? Or that no-one disputes these were originally obtained illegally? Do you think that—assuming the police gather sufficient evidence—the two men who have been arrested already will not face criminal rather than civil charges?

Speaking of facts, have you found any to support Levy's statement that Arsenal received public funding? Your last effort didn't quite cut the mustard, did it?

Yes, I have a 'pre-judged notion' of Levy's mendacity because he's lied on several occasions.

Posted the evidence a few pages back SS, you probably missed it :up:

As for the rest if you think you've enough of the facts from that judge's statement to confirm your prejudice then good for you.

 

[SpurSince57]

Oh, that was evidence, was it?

No, I didn't miss it. I even commented on why it was bollocks.

Sorry, what prejudice would that be? The records were illegally obtained. No-one disputes that. Spurs may be completely innocent, but a firm we employed has got a good deal of explaining to do. That will not reflect well on Spurs. You don't care about this? 'No-one likes us, we don't care.'

So very Millwall.

 

[sloth]

Oh, that was evidence, was it?

No, I didn't miss it. I even commented on why it was bollocks.

Sorry, what prejudice would that be? The records were illegally obtained. No-one disputes that. Spurs may be completely innocent, but a firm we employed has got a good deal of explaining to do. That will not reflect well on Spurs. You don't care about this? 'No-one likes us, we don't care.'

So very Millwall.

SS, I think it went over your head a little bit tbh...

Looking back I see you pointed out the S106 payment that Arsenal were required to make and made no other comment but that...

What you forgot to acknowledge is the existence of something called the London plan, with it's areas of "Intensification" which saw hundreds of millions of public money poured into these areas in order to improve housing, transport infrastructure and the like. Arsenal piggy-backed this process and the London plan with all it's public/private partnerships were what helped make Ashburton Grove viable.

Which is what my post was supposed to be showing.

And which I think is the point Levy is making.

I suspect were we being asked to make S106 payments in order to part subsidise a new Victoria Line station at Northumberland park then Levy would jump at the chance.

In fact, in contrast to Arsenal where public subsidy was focussed on the area in which they were based, in Haringey all public subsidies, as you know, are been funnelled to the South of the borough and the Hale Redevelopment scheme, with THFC expected to virtually single-handedly look after the redevelopment in the North of the Borough.

What Levy is saying, is that without a similar amount of investment in the North of Tottenham as Arsenal's part of Islington enjoyed when AFC built their stadium, or the Hale is receiving now, our stadium project is in danger of collapsing like a duff soufflé.

To make it work, to turn our bit of Tottenham into a thriving neighbourhood where people want to come and live and work and bring up their children or whatever it's going to take more than a Stadium, but if it's only a stadium the value of what we build will be squandered, we'll have apartments people don't want to buy, there'll be no concomitant new businesses, SME's and the like and our public spaces will be more wasteland than piazza.

In other words as happened in the London Plan in the areas of intensification in order to make the NDP viable we need something similar to happen in North Tottenham.

All of which, of course, you're well capable of grasping, but chose not to, because having already made up your mind on Levy several years ago it's easier for you to liken the guy to Kim Jong-Ill of North Korea then admit that he might actually be making an honest point.

 

[bigturnip]

What you forgot to acknowledge is the existence of something called the London plan, with it's areas of "Intensification" which saw hundreds of millions of public money poured into these areas in order to improve housing, transport infrastructure and the like. Arsenal piggy-backed this process and the London plan with all it's public/private partnerships were what helped make Ashburton Grove viable.

But of that public investment, some of it was cancelled and much of it was announced before Arsenal decided to go ahead with their stadium, of course Ken made the most out of it, by re-announcing it when Arsenal went ahead with their plans. However, that investment was put in because of the high traffic volumes in the area and yes, you could say Arsenal benefited from it, or that it was what persuaded them to go ahead with their stadium, but it wasn't directed at them.

Are you really saying that any public investment in housing or transport in an area must be viewed as public financing of a local football club? In that case every time social housing is renovated or a road surface is relaid in Tottenham we are getting financial support from the government.

 

[sloth]

But of that public investment, some of it was cancelled and much of it was announced before Arsenal decided to go ahead with their stadium, of course Ken made the most out of it, by re-announcing it when Arsenal went ahead with their plans. However, that investment was put in because of the high traffic volumes in the area and yes, you could say Arsenal benefited from it, or that it was what persuaded them to go ahead with their stadium, but it wasn't directed at them.

Are you really saying that any public investment in housing or transport in an area must be viewed as public financing of a local football club? In that case every time social housing is renovated or a road surface is relaid in Tottenham we are getting financial support from the government.

I'm not suggesting that the investment occurred because of Arsenal's development, far from it, I think it was simply happy chance or even opportunism which saw all parties come together to make something more valuable than it otherwise would have been.

The point is that regardless of how it happened Arsenal benefited from it and so did Islington and the entire area.

The point I think Levy's making is that without a similar kind of investment and partnership the NDP becomes very difficult indeed. He's saying, look Tottenham is a hole, we can turn it into something different to that, but to do it we need help, he's further making the point that unless we can cobble together a meaningful partnership (for which read hard-cash/subsidies rather than nice sounding sentiments), unless we can turn our bit of Tottenham into a place people want to live, relocate their businesses to, start up their businesses, send their children to school etc. then the net return on our project is not great enough to make it viable.

Sadly for us the Council have decided to plough all available grants, subsidies and political weight into another area of the borough. It isn't that there wasn't cash available, just that for strategic reasons they've chosen to spend it elsewhere.

All of which is easy enough to discover. What gets me about SS is that he denies any of it is true and prefers to say Levy's flat out lied in his numerous statements on the subject.

Btw, did you catch this post from a few weeks back, it's not a Livingstone press release, more like dry planning documents:

Against my better judgement I took up SS's challenge...

After 45 minutes or so of research this is what I have come up with so far (I'll carry on at a later date (or someone else can take up the baton?) but it's quarter to midnight now and so I'm going to stop)...

Anyway, the long and the short of it is that for the last seven years there's been a thing called the London Plan set up by the Mayor's office and the GLA who's goal is to ensure London remains a global city. As part of that plan they've identified "Areas for Intensification", which means areas where serious and special effort should be spent on improving all kinds of things from housing to public transport infrastructure. It just so happens that Arsenal's Stadium development fell directly in the centre of one of these areas...

Apologies for the lack of formatting btw, can't e bothered to make it look nicer now....

My first suggestion is to go here and to a "Find" (ctrl F) on Arsenal: http://www.islington.gov.uk/Downloa...stainable_transport_strategy/Ch09_RegenPT.pdf

Section 1.2 reads "1.2 The Mayor of London has identified the King’s Cross, Arsenal/Holloway,
Finsbury Park and City Fringe areas within Islington as significant
opportunities in terms of regeneration and intensification. The council is also
pursuing improvements to the borough’s main transport corridor and related
public spaces in the borough through the A1 borough strategy, which will
complement regeneration in these other areas."

Section 2.2: "The swathe is anchored at each end by the public transport interchanges at
King’s Cross St Pancras and Finsbury Park. King’s Cross has been identified
in the London Plan as an ‘Opportunity Area’ on the basis that it is an area in
need of regeneration and is capable of accommodating substantial new jobs
and homes. The swathe contains a number of regeneration ‘catalyst projects’
such as the Arsenal Football Club developments, which are part of the ‘Area
of Intensification’, identified in the London Plan."

Now go to this document: http://www.london.gov.uk/archive/mayor/strategies/sds/london_plan/lon_plan_all.pdf (which is the iteration of the plan from the mid-2000s) and do a "Find" on Intensification (the clue taken from the Area of Intensification comment in the Islington document), there are 107 references, but just the first two tell the story.

Back to the Islington Document, still doing the "find" on Arsenal:

"Arsenal and Holloway
2.6 The London Plan has identified Arsenal and Holloway as ‘Areas of
Intensification’ where more intense development is encouraged by GLA for
employment and residential land uses.
Finsbury Park
2.7 The Finsbury Park area is subject to issues of disconnected and inadequate
public spaces and inadequate public transport capacity. Finsbury Park station
serves the Tollington and Finsbury Park wards, both identified in the London
Plan as an ‘Area for Regeneration‘. Finsbury Park is also adjacent to the
Arsenal/Holloway ‘Area for Intensification’.

Now Sections 2.15 and 2.16

"2.15 The passenger environment at Finsbury Park Station is poor and the
interchange between Underground, train and bus services is confusing and
indirect. Sections of the station also suffer from over-crowding at peak times,
and the station does not have lifts to accommodate people with mobility
difficulties. These problems will be exacerbated by a further increase in
mainline and Underground passengers due to completion of the nearby
Arsenal developments in Ashburton Grove and Highbury, due for completion
in 2006 and 2008 respectively. As part of the TfL travel plan for the new
Arsenal stadium, it is likely that capacity enhancement and step-free schemes
for Finsbury Park will be advanced in the LUL programme to be undertaken
sooner. It is likely to commence in 2007 with completion in 2008.
Guiding major development
2.16 Major developments in the swathe offer the council a unique opportunity to
contribute towards the wider regeneration of the area. But these
developments also create new transport challenges. The new Arsenal
Football Stadium in Ashburton Grove will provide the Arsenal Football Club
with a new 60,000 seat capacity stadium from the beginning of the 2006/07
season. Other major developments related to the Arsenal Stadium
development are proposed within the Arsenal/Holloway Area for
Intensification, including at the existing Highbury Stadium."

Section 2.31

"2.31 The CRT (cross-river tram apparently ??) should be extended to serve key regeneration areas including the
Bemerton Estate, Caledonian Road, Ten Estates and the Arsenal/Holloway
area. Such an extension would also serve the busy retail centres of Nag’s
Head and Finsbury Park and provide a direct link to Arsenal’s new 60,000
capacity stadium. "

Sections 2.46 - 2.50

"Arsenal Stadium Development
2.46 At the heart of the area is the new Arsenal Football Stadium in Ashburton
Grove, which will provide Arsenal Football Club with a new 60,000 seat
capacity stadium from the beginning of the 2006 season. In addition, other
Arsenal related developments are proposed in Queensland Road, Hornsey
Street, Lough Road and at the existing Highbury Stadium. These combined
Arsenal developments when completed in 2008 will generate 1800 jobs and
2407 residential units.
2.47 An overall package of £60m in community benefits is being delivered by the
Arsenal projects, which will offset any adverse impacts of the development.
Included within this package of measures is a new state-of-the-art waste
transfer station for North London that became operational in August 2004. In
addition, there will be significant investment in local transport infrastructure to
assist with the arrival and dispersal of spectators. Proposed measures
include
• capacity improvements to underground stations in the area to enable
the stations to be used by an increased number of passengers
during match days (options are currently still being investigated by
TfL/LUL)
• contribution towards TfL’s interchange improvements for Finsbury
Park Station
• contribution towards Drayton Park Station
• development of a travel plan to ensure that effective use is made of
the available transport in local area
• streetscape, pedestrian and lighting improvements in the vicinity of
the new stadium
• an extensive match day parking scheme with more restrictive parking
controls to be implemented around the stadium
• environmental traffic management schemes for Lough Road,
Mackenzie Road, Benwell Road and Hillmarton Road
• junction improvement works at Holloway Road/Hornsey Street and
Caledonian Road/Hillmarton Road
• provision of new publicly accessible routes and bridges around the
stadium area providing improved links through the site between
surrounding areas
2.48 The Arsenal developments will act as a catalyst for further regeneration
projects around the Holloway Road area and provide a further stimulus for
enhancements to the Nag’s Head town centre. As a result, it will be
necessary to make additional investment in local transport to ensure that
overcrowding does not worsen on local transport infrastructure. Our priorities
for investment include
• additional bus services to meet growing demand on radial corridors
into West End and City serving Holloway Road and Highbury Grove
• new bus services connecting local centres and providing access to
areas with poor public transport (e.g. Drayton Park)
• removal of the A503 gyratory system and public realm improvements
in the local area
• completion of a project to link all traffic signals on the A1 to provide
effective traffic management that minimises delays to general traffic
and buses
• completion of an upgrade to Holloway Road Station to include
modernisation and wheelchair access to platforms
• upgrade and modernisation of Finsbury Park Station to include
capacity improvements, modernisation and wheelchair access to
mainline and Underground platforms
• upgrade and modernisation of Highbury & Islington Station including
capacity improvements and wheelchair access to mainline and
Underground platforms
• introduction of evening and weekend services on WAGN Finsbury
Park to Moorgate branch line
• measures to address over-crowding on North London Line services
at peak times
• implementation of Public/Private Partnership (PPP) enhancements to
Underground services on Piccadilly and Victoria Lines
2.49 Discussions with the developers and other key agencies are ongoing to
ensure that these priorities are addressed in planning applications submitted.

Cross River Tram
2.50 As discussed in the King’s Cross area section, Islington Council is supportive
of the Cross River Tram (CRT) proposal. It is particularly important that the
tram be extended from its current proposed terminus at King’s Cross with a
stop at York Road station to serve the busy retail centres of Nag’s Head and
Finsbury Park and provide a direct link to Arsenal’s new 60,000 capacity
stadium.

Anyway, that's as far as I got, make of it what you will...

 

[spud]

I merely thought your revelation 'that PKF - or an employee thereof - did this off his or her own bat' invited a comment along the lines of 'No shit, Sherlock'.......However, your claim that 'there is almost certainly no need to break any laws in order to obtain incriminating - or at least compromising - evidence of incompetence and/or corruption' is fatuous in the extreme, given that no one appears to dispute that the records were obtained illegally. PKF/Hill and Spurs are just denying any knowledge of this. However, PKF/Hill have yet to explain how these documents fell into their hands—a mystery well-wisher, perhaps?—and how it was they failed to hand them over to the police immediately. After all, that's what you do with obviously stolen property, isn't it?

Let's look at two (of several) possible scenarios:

1. THFC employ PKF to 'dig the dirt' on Brady, the OPLC, whoever. They state or imply that any means can be used, whether legal or otherwise.

2. THFC employ PKF to do some background research. PKF, a firm of accountants, decide that a third party - let's say a detective agency - might be an appropriate vehicle for this. The third party, or an employee thereof, decides to obtain 'phone records; illegally, as it turns out.

Is option 2 really so 'out there'? Is it so impossible? I don't know which of these (or others) ocurred. I simply choose, with the available information, to give the club the benefit of the doubt.

As for my supposition that enough 'dirt' could probably be obtained without breaking the law, would the employee in scenario 2 know this? Obtaining phone records might be standard practice for such an individual (it's probably the fun part of the job); an individual who would have absolutely no concept of the 'bigger picture'. Hardly 'fatuous in the extreme' given these possible circumstances.

Like you, SS57, I have no fucking clue what happened. I simply choose, in light of the available information, to give Spurs the benefit of the doubt.I am surprised that more posters do not do the same.

 

[spud]

Your assumption is as good as anyone else's at this stage, though how you get to be on the wrong side of every argument puzzles me.

Why is my side 'the wrong side'?

Its not even about the truth if that ever comes out but about how it looks.......It's about reputation and integrity both of which may take a battering whether we are innocent or not.

I agree to an extent, but it must ultimately be about the truth. If it isn't, then nothing else matters.

 

[JimmyG2]

Why is my side 'the wrong side'?


I agree to an extent, but it must ultimately be about the truth. If it isn't, then nothing else matters.

The 'wrong' side is the side that I'm not on obviously.
It was a joke. Should have put a Smiley on it.

The truth is a murky business when we're talking phone records, Forensic Accountants, deniability and the like.
Did James Murdoch know the extent of the phone hacking at NOW?
Of course he did but without evidence it's his word against others.
And the truth if it ever appears might not be recognised in the Court of Public Opinion.
Just as we Spurs fans somewhat hypocritically refer to the W.Ham owners as 'pornographers' people will lump Harry's tax affairs and the OS saga in the file marked 'dodgy' with reference to THFC.
Not something that I like and which may not stand us in good stead in future dealings with other clubs and players.

 

[bigturnip]

we Spurs fans somewhat hypocritically refer to the W.Ham owners as 'pornographers'

We refer to them as pornographers because that is what they are, it is a fact, no need for the inverted commas.

 

[StartingPrice]

We Spurs fans somewhat hypocritically refer to the W.Ham owners as 'pornographers'.

mg:

We refer to them as pornographers because that is what they are, it is a fact, no need for the inverted commas.

:hump:
Have I missed something Jimmy, or have you? Don't you realize that the Dildo Brothas (that's Sillivan and Gold, to you) literally made their name and their money in the porn industry :shrug:

I know there have been a few ham-shankers involved with the club, in one way or t'other - but c'mon, calling pornographers pornographers when no-one associated with the club is, is hardly hypocritical.

 

[JimmyG2]

mg:



:hump:
Have I missed something Jimmy, or have you? Don't you realize that the Dildo Brothas (that's Sillivan and Gold, to you) literally made their name and their money in the porn industry :shrug:

I know there have been a few ham-shankers involved with the club, in one way or t'other - but c'mon, calling pornographers pornographers when no-one associated with the club is, is hardly hypocritical.

Yes I understand that but how many SC posters don't indulge in what
a lot of people would term pornagraphy.
The 'Dildo brothers' stuff as far as I have seen is no worse than a lot of stuff on football fan sites.
Most of it is not even illegal, nor should it be.
They are not hard core porn people, children animals, or snuff movies.

I found an 'adult' forum on SC once by accident and can't remember how to get back to it.
I get mine on the national health prescribed for a condition I won't go into at this stage. :wink:

Everyone now will refer to us as 'lawless', the 'bent brothers' if you will.
equally unfairly in my view.

Let those amongst you that is free of sin... etc.

 

[StartingPrice]

Yes I understand that but how many SC posters don't indulge in what
a lot of people would term pornagraphy.
The 'Dildo brothers' stuff as far as I have seen is no worse than a lot of stuff on football fan sites.
Most of it is not even illegal, nor should it be.
They are not hard core porn people, children animals, or snuff movies.

I found an 'adult' forum on SC once by accident and can't remember how to get back to it.
I get mine on the national health prescribed for a condition I won't go into at this stage. :wink:

Everyone now will refer to us as 'lawless', the 'bent brothers' if you will.
equally unfairly in my view.

Let those amongst you that is free of sin... etc.

1) Chicken and egg - how many folk on here (and throughout the World) believe porn is acceptable largely because ofthe activities of said Dildo Brothas. Neutral statement - I'm not getting into a debate about whether porn is good or bad, just pointing out that not so long ago it was totally and utterly frowned upon, and, relatively, a very rare thing - when I was a kid, the occasional massively tame mag (largely baps and suggestion), was an extreme rarity in the playground, and a route to a notorious rep for the owner. It was largely thanks to the lobbying of folk like Dildo Brothas, and the normalisation therein, that helped spread the foundations of their empire. Just saying it is prevelant now, doesn't cut it as an excuse for them.

2) Somehow, a lot of people see being a user of something as being less culpable than the producers. A Smack-head could have seen/endured horrible things as a child and consider Heroin as only release. You would hardly consider them to be on the same level as the head of an extemely vicious drugs cartel, keeping a Third-World country in a state of chaos for their own benefit.

So, no, I don't believe that Spurs fans/anyone else, a proportion of whom may or may not occasionally resort to porn as a recreational release aid is in any way hypocritical for pouring scorn on the Dildo Brothas.

 

[FITZ]

Yes I understand that but how many SC posters don't indulge in what
a lot of people would term pornagraphy.
The 'Dildo brothers' stuff as far as I have seen is no worse than a lot of stuff on football fan sites.
Most of it is not even illegal, nor should it be.
They are not hard core porn people, children animals, or snuff movies.

I found an 'adult' forum on SC once by accident and can't remember how to get back to it.
I get mine on the national health prescribed for a condition I won't go into at this stage. :wink:

Everyone now will refer to us as 'lawless', the 'bent brothers' if you will.
equally unfairly in my view.

Let those amongst you that is free of sin... etc.

Ssshhh

The first rule of the mansion is that we don't talk about the mansion!

 

[Achap]

Yes I understand that but how many SC posters don't indulge in what
a lot of people would term pornagraphy.
The 'Dildo brothers' stuff as far as I have seen is no worse than a lot of stuff on football fan sites.
Most of it is not even illegal, nor should it be.
They are not hard core porn people, children animals, or snuff movies.

I found an 'adult' forum on SC once by accident and can't remember how to get back to it.
I get mine on the national health prescribed for a condition I won't go into at this stage. :wink:

Everyone now will refer to us as 'lawless', the 'bent brothers' if you will.
equally unfairly in my view.

Let those amongst you that is free of sin... etc.

It's a digression from the subject of this thread I know - but a mildly interesting one. Going by this logic:

As I use the services of my local Doctor, I should not refer to him as a Doctor.
Because I used a Surveyor recently, I can no longer call him a Surveyor.
Due to me willingly watching the TV Weather Forecast, I can not say that the people who compiled it are Meteorologists.

Going to make life tricky. :grin:

 

[dav3j]

The 'Dildo brothers' stuff as far as I have seen is no worse than a lot of stuff on football fan sites.
Most of it is not even illegal, nor should it be.
They are not hard core porn people, children animals, or snuff movies.

Not true:

A millionaire by 25, with his partner, David Gold, Sullivan moved into the adult entertainment industry; his business empire encompassing sex shops, adult magazines and several low-budget blue movies.[4] By the mid-1970s, Sullivan was in control of half of the adult magazine market.[3] In the late 1970s he produced several low-budget British sex movies including Come Play with Me (1977) (directed by Harrison Marks), The Playbirds (1978), Confessions from the David Galaxy Affair (1979) and Queen of the Blues (1979), all starring his then-girlfriend Mary Millington. After Millington's suicide in August 1979 he continued with Mary Millington's True Blue Confessions (1980) and Emmanuelle in Soho (1981). In 1982 Sullivan was convicted of living off immoral earnings and served 71 days in prison.

 

[StartingPrice]

Not true:
1) starring his then-girlfriend Mary Millington. 2) After Millington's suicide in August 1979 he continued with Mary Millington's True Blue Confessions (1980) and Emmanuelle in Soho (1981). 3) In 1982 Sullivan was convicted of living off immoral earnings and served 71 days in prison.

1) I never knew that.
2) Classy guy Eek
3) And yet, somehow, is allowed to run several football clubs (and WetSpam) :duh: