New Stadium Details And Discussions

[davidmatzdorf]

Whats the deal with Sainsburys ?

Is it a 65m one off or are we getting a favourable rent (as I read here) ?

The rent would see our TO increase

I doubt it's a rental lease at all. I'd expect it to be a development lease, with Sainsbury's having acquired the land off THFC's development company for a one-off capital premium (not a very big one) and then paying the cost of building the North Development themselves, directly, as this would reduce THFC's borrowing requirement for the development as a whole.

 

[Spursidol]

I doubt it's a rental lease at all. I'd expect it to be a development lease, with Sainsbury's having acquired the land off THFC's development company for a one-off capital premium (not a very big one) and then paying the cost of building the North Development themselves, directly, as this would reduce THFC's borrowing requirement for the development as a whole.

Any idea on the 'one off capital premium' - with the acquired land now with planning permission to build the supermarket, could we be looking at a capital premium of say £10m - £20m (or is that too high) ?

Plus of course selling land we had previously bought for say £10m - £20m gives us extra cash in the bank ?

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Any idea on the 'one off capital premium' - with the acquired land now with planning permission to build the supermarket, could we be looking at a capital premium of say £10m - £20m (or is that too high) ?

Plus of course selling land we had previously bought for say £10m - £20m gives us extra cash in the bank ?

That's a long way outside my area of knowledge. I've worked on schemes that included supermarkets, but I'd always have to get specialist advice from someone who knows about retail/grocery values. I can do residential values on a rough-and-ready basis and even offices, but not a big supermarket.

And working out the 'land' element of that would require knowing how much it is costing to build the supermarket, how much of the non-supermarket parts of the North Development (if any) Sainsbury's are building for THFC, any other bells/whistles in the Development Agreement and a formula for converting the turnover of the Sainsbury's into a capital value.

I'd be confident that it's more than Kemsley agreed to pay for the land in question. The planning consent for the development greatly increased the land value of the whole site.

 

[Lilbaz]

I doubt it's a rental lease at all. I'd expect it to be a development lease, with Sainsbury's having acquired the land off THFC's development company for a one-off capital premium (not a very big one) and then paying the cost of building the North Development themselves, directly, as this would reduce THFC's borrowing requirement for the development as a whole.

What about the college and other commercial properties?

 

[davidmatzdorf]

What about the college and other commercial properties?

With the college, I have to plead lack of knowledge again, sorry. I don't even know where it's supposed to go on the site nor whether it's a profit-making operation or a charitable/community endeavour.

The 'other commercial properties' will include the four listed buildings that will be refurbished, the shops under the plaza podium and, if they end up including it, the hotel. Have I missed anything?

I'd expect the hotel to be procured along similar lines to the supermarket: you select an experienced hotel developer/operator and you let them build it at their own expense.

But the position of the old buildings and the shops behind them, virtually integral with the main stadium itself, would suggest to me that THFC will develop those directly and then sell normal commercial leases on them. Those might be of varying lengths (say 5 to 20 years) and they might vary in terms of whether they produce a capital premium or an annual rental, depending (amongst other factors) on the sizes and locations of the units in question, the state of the retail market at the time of marketing and whether THFC would prefer a steady income stream or quick cash.

 

[Lilbaz]

Sorry i meant the commercial units above the sainsbury's. Sainsbury takes up part of the ground floor i believe with 2 more floors above for other commercial uses. With the the back (opening towards the stadium) being the college.

I'm on my phone so can't link, but there are pictures of the college (actual photos) on this thread somewhere. Glory glory actually have all the available images on the first page of their stadium thread.

 

[sebcole]

Its more than that, I am number 48'319

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/sites/spurs/Membership/my-spurs-account.page

Wow, I wish we had a 70,000 odd seater stadium, well if we could budge roughly that amount of ST's why not go for the national stadium type size of 90,000.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Sorry i meant the commercial units above the sainsbury's. Sainsbury takes up part of the ground floor i believe with 2 more floors above for other commercial uses. With the the back (opening towards the stadium) being the college.

I'm on my phone so can't link, but there are pictures of the college (actual photos) on this thread somewhere. Glory glory actually have all the available images on the first page of their stadium thread.

I haven't seen the detailed plans of the North Development, but in principle, assuming that Sainsbury's are cash-flowing the building project, there are two basic ways this can be done. One is that Sainsbury's pays a 'land element price' just based on their own supermarket and the agreement has them gifting the upper commercial units and the college back to THFC on a long lease when they're finished, for THFC to under-lease on to the end-users. The other is that Sainsbury's pays a 'land element price' based on the whole value of the completed North Development and they get to sell them when they're finished and keep the proceeds.

The distinction is about who is willing to take on the risk associated with changes in the value of those units and the cost of building them. In this case, it's also quite possibly about THFC trying to minimise the amount of money it has to borrow, which would suggest that they've flogged the lot off to someone else - probably Sainsbury's - to develop. But I'm guessing - you can do it either way. Indeed, there are all kinds of ways you can put together these kinds of development agreements, which is one reason they take so bloody long to negotiate.

The context in which I come across this kind of agreement all the time is where you have a developer who acquires a site and gets planning consent for a block of flats, but the planners require a row of retail units at street level. The developer might be selling off half of the housing to a housing association. Who gets the retail units under those flats? It depends on the business needs of the parties. In some neighbourhoods, they might be desirable to have. In other areas, they'll take years to let and will be expensive to manage. Some of the commercial units on the ground floor of the shared ownership housing blocks of the Arsenal development, directly opposite Caledonian Rd tube station, are still vacant, many years after the development was completed.

Or you can have a business operator who owns one-storey unit, who sells off their land to a residential developer, because the site could easily accommodate 4 storeys of flats over the commercial ground floor. The developer pays a discounted price for the land that reflects the fact that they will have to develop a ground floor commercial unit and give it back to the original owner on a long lease for nothing. The original owner gets a fresh new commercial unit and a capital receipt for the 'land element' value of the residential development above.

I could probably think of other examples.

 

[Lilbaz]

Cheers david.

Does this mean we're rich?

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Cheers david.

Does this mean we're rich?

Ahem. Not the right question .

 

[Lilbaz]

Ahem. Not the right question .

Joking. Cheers for the insight though.

 

[Scottish Spur]

Can anybody, anywhere provide a brief idea as to where we are with this ? When will we see construction of the stadium commence ?

 

[Lilbaz]

Can anybody, anywhere provide a brief idea as to where we are with this ? When will we see construction of the stadium commence ?

The truthful answer is we don't know.

Hopefully we should start in the new year. David lammy (mp) said sometime after december. The northern development should be almost complete by then. But we have no idea on finances, sponsors etc...

I would think maybe early new year or wait till summer. Which is a total guess.

We are also waiting for cpo's and a possible redesign with populous taking over from kss.

 

[Cavehillspur]

Not sure if this is the proper area to post this:

Tottenham Hotspur FC help create 200 new jobs at Sainsburys, Northumberland Park
More than 200 new jobs have been created ahead of the opening of a new Sainsbury’s store as part of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club's plans to regenerate the area.

The White Hart Lane club has entered a partnership with Haringey Borough Council and the supermarket chain to help more local people find jobs.
As part of the new employment scheme, the first 200 jobs have been offered to people living in a three mile radius from Tottenham.

Speaking at the launch of the new partnership, Tottenham MP David Lammy said: “This is an important first step in the tangible regeneration of Tottenham.


“This is something people can see and feel, it has been a long time coming.
“It’s a very important development as it will create new jobs for people in the local area.”
New staff will be trained at the club’s grounds.

The scheme will help to reduce Haringey’s unemployment issues, with just 61.2 per cent of people in work in the borough.
The project is part of Spurs’s scheme to regenerate the area around its White Hart Lane ground - which includes plans to build new homes and a new stadium.

Donna Cullen, Tottenham Hotspur's director, said: “We know the attractiveness of our brand so we feel we have a responsibility to use it to our advantage.

“We want to make sure jobs go to local people.”

She added the club has computer terminals to allow unemployed people to find jobs online, and work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith has funded a ‘Digivan’ - a mobile recruitment facility.
The employment project is also backed by the Job Centre and the Department for Work and Pensions.
Alan Strickland, cabinet member for regeneration at Haringey Borough Council, said: “As a council we are determined to see the successful regeneration of Tottenham.

“This is a vital piece of the jigsaw. It’s important we don’t just have a new Sainsburys building, but that we actually deliver real change.
“This is about answering the question of where the jobs are going - now we can say they are going to Tottenham residents.”
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/10656851._/

 

[Bobbins]

Read on a Spurs Facebook page (I know...) earlier that Donna Cullen had said today that the stadium development is unlikely to be completed before 2017. No source on the post irritatingly but I suppose this falls in line with the minimum amount of time required should we secure sufficient finance within the near future.

 

[dovahkiin]

Read on a Spurs Facebook page (I know...) earlier that Donna Cullen had said today that the stadium development is unlikely to be completed before 2017. No source on the post irritatingly but I suppose this falls in line with the minimum amount of time required should we secure sufficient finance within the near future.

apparently the source is is bbc londons chris slegg

 

[andyp8080]

i have no idea on these things, but another 4 years seems an awfully long time. I thought the hope was to start building at the start of next year or even the end of this year.

How long does it take to build a stadium? i hate to use the Emirates as an example but does anyone know how long this took to construct?

 

[L.A. Yiddo]

Not sure if this is the proper area to post this:

Tottenham Hotspur FC help create 200 new jobs at Sainsburys, Northumberland Park
More than 200 new jobs have been created ahead of the opening of a new Sainsbury’s store as part of Tottenham Hotspur Football Club's plans to regenerate the area.

The White Hart Lane club has entered a partnership with Haringey Borough Council and the supermarket chain to help more local people find jobs.
As part of the new employment scheme, the first 200 jobs have been offered to people living in a three mile radius from Tottenham.

Speaking at the launch of the new partnership, Tottenham MP David Lammy said: “This is an important first step in the tangible regeneration of Tottenham.


“This is something people can see and feel, it has been a long time coming.
“It’s a very important development as it will create new jobs for people in the local area.”
New staff will be trained at the club’s grounds.

The scheme will help to reduce Haringey’s unemployment issues, with just 61.2 per cent of people in work in the borough.
The project is part of Spurs’s scheme to regenerate the area around its White Hart Lane ground - which includes plans to build new homes and a new stadium.

Donna Cullen, Tottenham Hotspur's director, said: “We know the attractiveness of our brand so we feel we have a responsibility to use it to our advantage.

“We want to make sure jobs go to local people.”

She added the club has computer terminals to allow unemployed people to find jobs online, and work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith has funded a ‘Digivan’ - a mobile recruitment facility.
The employment project is also backed by the Job Centre and the Department for Work and Pensions.
Alan Strickland, cabinet member for regeneration at Haringey Borough Council, said: “As a council we are determined to see the successful regeneration of Tottenham.

“This is a vital piece of the jigsaw. It’s important we don’t just have a new Sainsburys building, but that we actually deliver real change.
“This is about answering the question of where the jobs are going - now we can say they are going to Tottenham residents.”
http://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/10656851._/

Vid on the job opportunities driven by the NDP scheme here:-

 

[davidmatzdorf]

i have no idea on these things, but another 4 years seems an awfully long time. I thought the hope was to start building at the start of next year or even the end of this year.

How long does it take to build a stadium? i hate to use the Emirates as an example but does anyone know how long this took to construct?

Bear in mind that the plan is to move into it a year before it is completed, then demolish the existing WHL, then complete the stadium. So if we're planning to complete it in 2017, then we're planning to play football matches in the 3/4 completed stadium in 2016.

Two years to build a stadium would be quick. If they are currently working with new architects on the detailed design phase, starting early next year on the actual building would be good going, irrespective of the unresolved financing issues.

Add in the planned phasing of the build and completing the project in 2017 seems realistic to me. But it's my experience that every developer routinely underestimates the time it is going to take to complete every building by 6-18 months.

 

[jyoshinmonchris]

Vid on the job opportunities driven by the NDP scheme here:-

I fucking love this club. I live on the opposite side of the planet, but I read about the state of Tottenham on this forum, and to see the club doing so much for the community and people that need it really makes me smile. More even than signing Lamela, or Eriksen...