michaelden
Knight of the Fat Fanny
- Aug 13, 2004
- 26,451
- 21,811
It would seem so... except that time at Porto
Opinion of AVB in hindsight?
- Thread starter Hoops
- Start date
It would seem so... except that time at Porto
Porto are probably the same level as Zenit - neither are top European clubs
muppetman
Well-Known Member
- Jul 29, 2011
- 9,030
- 25,221
I liked him as a person, he came across well and all that "we is us" stuff was great to hear after Harry. I thought at the time that we got rid of him too soon. That doesn't mean that I thought he would definitely be a success but I thought he deserved more time.
It's strange to me that some managers evoke such massive reactions in our fans. The hatred that gets dished out to our ex managers is pretty astounding - particularly when none of them bankrupted or relegated us!
We need to find a manager and stick with him (or her) - be that AVB, Poch or even Sherwood. We are a top 6 club. If we are in and around that mark then we shouldn't be firing managers until they've had a decent length of time and have been supported by getting the type of player they want - if not the exact name at least someone who has the attributes the manager wants in that position.
Maybe that's what we are doing with Mitchell?
It's strange to me that some managers evoke such massive reactions in our fans. The hatred that gets dished out to our ex managers is pretty astounding - particularly when none of them bankrupted or relegated us!
We need to find a manager and stick with him (or her) - be that AVB, Poch or even Sherwood. We are a top 6 club. If we are in and around that mark then we shouldn't be firing managers until they've had a decent length of time and have been supported by getting the type of player they want - if not the exact name at least someone who has the attributes the manager wants in that position.
Maybe that's what we are doing with Mitchell?
I believe it's less to do with hatred or strong opinions on ex managers and more to do with people arguing with one another and never wanted to be proven wrong or admit their wrong and seeking to bring up the argument again whenever they think something happens that supports their position
I think people get a little obsessed with these types of arguments with fellow fans and it drives them to take extreme views or express extreme opinions in order to win the argument. Same things happen with player threads
I for example really don't have strong opinions on AVB one way or the other, I have an opinion on his ability and his time with us but I really don't feel any way about him or care what he's up to now. However the nature of debates like these probably makes it seem like I have passionate opinions on the man due to the debates I have with other members who have opposing views on him than I do
I think in reality most people's views are relatively similar, no one thinks he's; shit and no one thinks he was a great coach for us. Just some people don't like to admit he wasn't as good as they thought he was going to be and don't like to admit they were wrong or had an affection for him because of his match interviews or whatever ( I dunno because I've never had an attachment to any Spurs manager so I can't really relate)
Good luck to him at Zenit and beyond, I am not dismissing his achievement there. Winning the league is still impressive, I judt don't think it was worthy of sparking a whole debate to go other old ground because I don't think in context it was anything worthy of suggesting suddenly he's proven himself to be a world class manager or proven that it was a mistake that we parted company with him when in reality winning the league with the best team in the league while impressive in itself is nothing he hadn't already done with Porto and doesn't do anything to suggest he's suddenly capable of being successful in the EPL (especially with a club like ours)
In the CL era (since the demographic of football changed rather than historic events)
The top tier revolves around CL success, the Europa is a secondary competition and the Portuguese league is a secondary like (outside the top four leagues in Europe)
Aside from the freak year Jose took them to CL success they've mostly been a group stage CL outfit - not one of the top teams in Europe. The top teams are the ones who year in year out compete for the CL title and are realistic winners
If you want to talk about history value dating back to the 1980s then that would mean you'd have to classify Ajax of a top European club also and that is simply not the case in the modern landscape of football, as (aside from the Jose year) it is not for Porto either and wasn't when AVB was there (unless you want to qualify Ramos as capable of managing a top European club for his stewardship of Sevilla to Europa league success also)
michaelden
Knight of the Fat Fanny
- Aug 13, 2004
- 26,451
- 21,811
They are consistently in the CL and more successful than Arsenal, Man City, all German teams aside from Bayern, all Spanish teams barring Real & Barca, all Italian aside from Juve, Inter, AC. So yes I'd say they are better than Zenit and of the top teams in Europe
tony_parkes
Well-Known Member
- Jun 21, 2008
- 3,298
- 1,558
If Barry Chuckle lived in Russia he would go by the name of Boris Chukhlov.
Being consistently in the Champions League isn't really the yard stick for being one of the top clubs in Europe. So are Celtic for example and numerous other teams who play in leagues that have very few competitive teams in
They are successful largely because they end up in the Europa - a wooden spoon competition. The majority of top teams never end up in the Europa (if they did they'd have a good chance of winning it like Chelsea did)
Yes, one time they one the CL under Jose and this distorts their recent history
Porto are second tier I'd suggest
The top teams are the ones that can win the CL every year (not just by a one off freakish run which also saw Monaco reach the final) - I don't think you really consider Porto to be one of the top European sides, do you?
They're not the type of team that generally buys the top players or appoint the top managers - they're more of a stepping stone club for players from South America and for managers to cut their teeth. That said they're very good at recruiting talented players from that continent and often end up building an excellent side (as AVB had at his disposal thanks to the people at the club who build the teams)
michaelden
Knight of the Fat Fanny
- Aug 13, 2004
- 26,451
- 21,811
But have Celtic won it, or the Uefa?
I'd say they're a top team , even crappy Uefa have them at 8th - http://www.uefa.com/memberassociations/uefarankings/club/
225
Living in hope, existing in disappointment
- Dec 15, 2014
- 4,563
- 9,064
The further away we get from the AVB reign, the less convinced I get that he would have ever been the right guy.
Much like Mourinho, he probably would have won things, but it would have been fooking boring and frustrating to watch it happen.. if that makes sense.
His entertainment came from the touchline, not the pitch.
Much like Mourinho, he probably would have won things, but it would have been fooking boring and frustrating to watch it happen.. if that makes sense.
His entertainment came from the touchline, not the pitch.
Why was he massively under supported in terms of transfers? He was THE most supported manager in our history in terms of transfers. We broke our transfer record three times under AVB. This myth that he wasn't supported is ridiculous. We signed the best players THIS club could. Because we couldn't afford the players he wanted, or because bigger and better clubs bought them instead, does not mean he wasn't supported.
No Celtic aren't on the same level as Porto - but then I never claimed they were, did I? I simply referenced them to illustrate how your example of Porto being in the CL year in year out is not proof that they are one of the top times i.e. Celtic are not one of Europe's elite teams despite being in the CL every year and therefore that in itself is not proof of being so
The year they won it was a freak, Jose was a great manager and he (with no small amount of luck) masterminded a lower level team winning the tournament. Wigan won the FA cup a few years ago but that doesn't make them one of England's elite teams
As I said much of their high rankings comes from their performance in the Europa in recent years - but top teams shouldn't be competing in that. Barca, Real, Bayern etc would never be in it and if they were they'd likely walk it too
I understand them being highly ranked - they're a good performing team. Largely because of the players they wisely attract from South America and build strong teams. They don't however pay big money to bring in top managers, they promote from within and generally have managers like AVB and Jose before him who would try to impress to use them as a stepping stone to get a move to a bigger club (would you not agree?)
AVB had success with them, but the people i in charge of recruitment had built him a very strong team that was realitively easy to manage to success (much like Ramos at Sevilla)
They're not one of the bigger/top European clubs though and they don't have the same sorts of pressures an elite club come with. The statement he's not capable of performing at one of the elite clubs in Europe is valid because after his time at Porto he got a gig at Chelsea (where he didn't have the strongest team by a distance in the league) and he failed spectacularly and was also sacked from Spurs
He's won the league again at Zenit - but with that team compared to their rivals I'd suggest he'd be expected to do so and many other managers could do so.
Khilari
Plumber. Sort of.
- Jun 19, 2008
- 3,461
- 5,287
He'd say that whilst cash was spent, none was on the targets he'd identified. One may argue that perhaps we ought to have bought fewer but better players, splashed out for the ones he'd specifically wished for.
And it sounds very much like Pochettino would rather this not happen again, making statements to the effect of wishing to be in charge of transfers. Perhaps so there are fewer Stambouli's being bought as 'Ocado substitutions'
Yes, but this is where AVB's lack of pragmatism let him down. The targets he identified and wanted were players that Spurs have a 10% or less chance of signing, let's be clear. He did get a few that he wanted. Paulinho has said that AVB fought for the club to buy him, so he found it difficult when he left.
A manager's real skill is making the most out of the resources available to him. Poch, whatever you think about him and his performances, has shown a consistent ability to use what he is given and make it either better, or at least function well.
He didn't get Schneiderlin, who was a player who plays the early forward ball, so he went to the youth team and saw that Mason played that ball. Not as well, but he did. So he stuck him in there.
He'd say that but he'd probably be lying - or at least not presenting the whole truth
I think he probably was frustrated that he didn't get his first choice signings when he wanted the likes of Mountinho, Hulk, Leandro, Willian and Oscar
He must have or at least should have known that for a club like us these signings would be difficult and not always realistic and he must or at least should have had some reasonable back up alternatives if we were unable to bring them in
I do personally agree that he wasn't backed during his first window, I think he had a lot of top players sold from under him and they were not replaced with anything resembling the same quality
He had a good year, points wise and was fortunate to have Bale excelling.
I think this earned him the backing of the board in the transfer window and I think that window he had a lot more input in to how the money was spent - but I think with this extra luxury came extra accountability and once he'd had such vast sums of money spent on his targets he was going to be scruitinised more and if they didn't work out and we didn't produce he was going to be sacked (which is what happened)
I think he made a terrible decision by asking for Soldado instead of Benteke who did not suit his style at all and would have pissed Levy off no end by costing so much and having no resale value. Paulinho was another expensive flop he requested and while I suspect Lamela was a Baldini signing and Erkisen brought in on Sherwood's suggestion to replace AVB's target Willian after Chelsea stole him from under our nose a lot of money had been invested in AVB and the fact it was spent so unwisely put a lot of pressure on him and ultimately contributed to his parting company with us
He may say he wasn't backed and lies were made about transfers, I would say his initial targets were unrealistic and when he was backed he effed it up and has set us back years with the terrible signings he requested
The answer may be somewhere in between, its somewhat conjecture but I certainly don't believe he was 100% blameless and just hard done by not getting any of his players while the evil Levy and Baldinin bought a bunch of players he never wanted and sold him up the river
Khilari
Plumber. Sort of.
- Jun 19, 2008
- 3,461
- 5,287
I agree that AVB has probably not presented the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But I'd be surprised if he wasn't led to believe that targets like these were attainable when he met with Levy and was probably also told that we ought to be challenging for the top 4.
As an optimistic ginger gruff, who helped us play some of the most boring football ever, I still honestly think there was a little helping hand when he said things like he wanted to bring "titles to Tottenham" from DL in some "5 year project".
Agree with Pochettino comments about finding suitable players in the youth team - really great asset to have.
As an optimistic ginger gruff, who helped us play some of the most boring football ever, I still honestly think there was a little helping hand when he said things like he wanted to bring "titles to Tottenham" from DL in some "5 year project".
Agree with Pochettino comments about finding suitable players in the youth team - really great asset to have.
AVB is a decent guy, he is someone i could talk to for hours about fast cars and racing, nice bloke, but the guy is an embarrassment as a manager, and no amount of winning trophies in a league as strong as the SPL going to change that
Similar threads
