Our players lack desire

[spursfan77]

I said it a few months ago and it bears repeating I think.

We have a squad full of good players. The problem (IMO) is that in far too many cases, consistency is their issue. You could put anyone in charge of this lot and we'd still struggle. We all know who those players are and it will be the work of several transfer windows to rid ourselves and even then, it's only going to do any good if we buy wisely.

Mourinho is here for a while yet so if laying it all at his door is your gig, fuck it, go ahead, fill your boots.........but you are probably setting yourselves up for quite a long haul of angst

Going to be hard to do that too with no money coming in via stadium income. We’ve seen how quiet January has been for all clubs, I suspect the summer will be like that too except for Chelsea and Man City spending big amounts. Once again we will have to box clever to improve the squad.

 

[onthetwo]

They lack belief which is why its worth the gamble of bringing Jose in to see if winning something (literally, anything) might be the turning point for this team and the club.

 

[jonnyp]

A lot of them lack a first touch and basic passing ability unfortunately. How we have so many players that completely lack basic technical ability is shocking.

 

[Japhet]

Conjecture it may be, but I struggle to draw any conclusion other than there is a psychological issue at play.

Think it through:

We get to a Champions League final. On the verge of a historic achievement for the club, but a squad that has been in similar situations before. Close to glory but ultimately not able to get over the line. We get some... let's say ambiguous messages from the manager at the time.

We go to Madrid. Suffer a bullshit decision then spend most of the rest of the match pushing to get back into it. Then they score again. Game over.

Fast forward to December. We go to Anfield. We play well. We give them a game. We're on the verge of a hard-fought draw that (if memory serves, but may be wrong) would keep us at the top of the table. And in the dying moments of the match, they snatch the victory.

Fast forward to last night. We're under the cosh. We're feeling the pressure, but we've been here before. We've got a tight defence. We've kept them at bay. But then, in the dying embers of the first half, what happens? They score. What's the old adage, the worst time to concede is just before half-time?

If (and I stress the if, although my own conviction is that it's true) this squad is mentally brittle, what kind of thought is going through the minds of some? "Liverpool are doing it to us again", "It's the same whenever we face Liverpool", etc, etc. I'm convinced that that's one of the reasons Klopp brought on Origi - to send a psychological message: "Remember Madrid?"; to push that button for all it was worth.

And then look at the performance in the second half. It looked to me like a bunch of very, very jaded individuals.

What can account for it? Physical tiredness? Partially but not really, as we're only halfway through a season. Tactics? Not really - tactics don't account for individual mistakes. Quality? Not really, as at least some of the players are undoubtedly talented. But imagine the training sessions in the run up to the match:

"Oh, we've got Liverpool next. Remember what happened last time?"

A comment like that is like a virus (how apt!) - it spreads. Even in the face of evidence that says they're there for the taking. Even with a coaching staff telling them that they're good, that they can win this.

I'm sure there are people here who have managed teams with a weak mentality and seen how easy it is for anything that undermines confidence to spread and how difficult it is to instil it. Why should a football team be any different?

This is a psychological issue. I am convinced of it. And it has nothing to do with who the manager is - it is a worm that has invaded the club on a cultural level and until it's dealt with, however that may be, it will rear its head again and again and again.

And although I personally feel that we are most vulnerable to Liverpool because of this issue (especially now) that mental weakness can be triggered by anything. Again, compare to an ordinary team of people. One of them burns their toast in the morning, runs late and so comes into work with a poor attitude. The rest of the team picks up on it instantly and that's that day's productivity fucked from the get-go. Doesn't matter if there's an important project in the works or it's business-as-usual.

Why should a football team be any different?

Great post Rez. A lot of it is to do with how the brain works. When you drop a piece of toast and it lands 'jam side down' a lot of people will think 'I knew that would happen', thus strengthening the belief that that's how things always work out. They won't remember the times it lands 'jam side up'. I think this is where a lot of our fans are after so many disappointments, but we're just spectators. The alarming thing is that the thought process seems to be ingrained throughout the club and events like the CL Final are huge drivers behind it. Poch seemed to collapse under it and effectively threw in the towel. Confidence is such a brittle thing and we've just seen a seemingly invincible Liverpool team go on an awful run where they couldn't score for nearly 8 hours,,,,,,,,,,until they ran into us. See, I'm at it again now!!

 

[shelfboy68]

They lack belief which is why its worth the gamble of bringing Jose in to see if winning something (literally, anything) might be the turning point for this team and the club.

I think we are at a stage where only a genie in a lamp with the granting of wishes is the answer now.

 

[ultimateloner]

I disagree with OP. I don't thin we lack desire. But I do think we lack quality.
Specifically it's quality to do multiple things well across the pitch.
E.g look at our fullbacks:
Aurier: good willingness to run down the line, can defend, doesn't lose the ball. Cannot cross, cannot head the ball.
Davies: can defend, good positioning, can cross. Cannot run down the line, lacks pace.
Doherty: unsure what he could do atm.
Reguillon: upgrade on Aurier, unsure about his defence.
In other words we don't have a fullback who can operate well in various circusmtances down the flank.
Similar story to nearly all our players, maybe except Kane (who is truly good at most things bar speed).
If you compare this to Liverpool; they have much more quality.

 

[hellava_tough]

I disagree with OP. I don't thin we lack desire. But I do think we lack quality.
Specifically it's quality to do multiple things well across the pitch.
E.g look at our fullbacks:
Aurier: good willingness to run down the line, can defend, doesn't lose the ball. Cannot cross, cannot head the ball.
Davies: can defend, good positioning, can cross. Cannot run down the line, lacks pace.
Doherty: unsure what he could do atm.
Reguillon: upgrade on Aurier, unsure about his defence.
In other words we don't have a fullback who can operate well in various circusmtances down the flank.
Similar story to nearly all our players, maybe except Kane (who is truly good at most things bar speed).
If you compare this to Liverpool; they have much more quality.

I'm not sure I agree.

Like I posted in the Transfer thread, every team can improve their quality, but our squad isn't that bad when compared to others in the league.

I think if we had a clear style of play that suited our players and they were drilled to be more aggressive and positive, to press from the first whistle, etc, then I think we'd see big improvements.

For me, quality only becomes an issue when the team is (i) following a good team plan, (ii) playing with confidence (iii) motivated...BUT still not winning.

For example, their are teams at the bottom of divisions who will set themselves up and scrap for every point. They may or may not avoid relegation, but it won't be down to a lack of organisation and effort; it'll be down to a lack of quality.

I'd like to see us play with a reliable formation/tactics and with desire, before we assess the squad's quality.

We probably have a lack of quality to win the league, but do we have a lack of quality to have picked up more points from the 6 games we've drawn? You turn 2 or 3 of those draws into wins and we're right back in the mix for the title.

 

[ultimateloner]

I'm not sure I agree.

Like I posted in the Transfer thread, every team can improve their quality, but our squad isn't that bad when compared to others in the league.

I think if we had a clear style of play that suited our players and they were drilled to be more aggressive and positive, to press from the first whistle, etc, then I think we'd see big improvements.

For me, quality only becomes an issue when the team is (i) following a good team plan, (ii) playing with confidence (iii) motivated...BUT still not winning.

For example, their are teams at the bottom of divisions who will set themselves up and scrap for every point. They may or may not avoid relegation, but it won't be down to a lack of organisation and effort; it'll be down to a lack of quality.

I'd like to see us play with a reliable formation/tactics and with desire, before we assess the squad's quality.

We probably have a lack of quality to win the league, but do we have a lack of quality to have picked up more points from the 6 games we've drawn? You turn 2 or 3 of those draws into wins and we're right back in the mix for the title.

I think give the quality of our squad we are about where we should be; ie: scrapping for a CL spot. The league table reflects that.

I think we have a clear style of play: counter-attack and defend deep, counting on Kane and Son to score. As part of that style, we will drop more points than we did before (when we played on the front foot) especially against weaker teams (hence the more draws) who sit deep and thus reducing our counter-opportunities (e.g. draws against Crystal Palace + Fulham). On the other hand we've also won games we normally wouldn't win; e.g. big win against MU, beat MC at home etc.

I think we lack a plan-B; so beyond counter-attacking, we have no other discernable game plan. While this is regrettable, it's not something I expect us to be able to do in the first place. We have a coach well-known for pragmatism. We also lack the players to play on the front foot. We are an aging squad so pressing from the front is no longer as viable because our CBs can't recover. Also do you trust our CMs to hold onto the ball? I'm happy enough if the likes of Winks and Sissoko don't lose it, let alone make use of it.

For me a sign of lacking desire is if players start to just 'pretend' to do their jobs. E.g. Willian at Arsenal; backtracks slow, doesnt even try to get in front of the opposition defence etc. or Eriksen in his final time with us. However I dont see this behavior in any of our players. Dier is a great example; played alot of mins, doesn't shy away. Yes he isn't the greatest CB but can't fault him for his limitations (which are well known, as is most of our squad). Same thing goes for Winks, Sissoko etc etc.

 

[PeeEyeEmPee]

The problems we had under Pochettino were (for the most part) different to the ones we have under Mourinho. Under Pochettino, there was a period where we actually looked as good as anyone else in the league, and our main issue there was our temperament during key moments and big games, hence the failure to win anything with a squad that was capable. With Mourinho, our two biggest problems are some bang-average players (especially in midfield) and turgid style of play. He can't be blamed for the first, but he definitely can for the second because while the squad isn't good enough to compete for any major honours, they're definitely capable of much better than they've shown in the year and change he has been in charge.

 

[hellava_tough]

I think give the quality of our squad we are about where we should be; ie: scrapping for a CL spot. The league table reflects that.

I think we have a clear style of play: counter-attack and defend deep, counting on Kane and Son to score. As part of that style, we will drop more points than we did before (when we played on the front foot) especially against weaker teams (hence the more draws) who sit deep and thus reducing our counter-opportunities (e.g. draws against Crystal Palace + Fulham). On the other hand we've also won games we normally wouldn't win; e.g. big win against MU, beat MC at home etc.

I think we lack a plan-B; so beyond counter-attacking, we have no other discernable game plan. While this is regrettable, it's not something I expect us to be able to do in the first place. We have a coach well-known for pragmatism. We also lack the players to play on the front foot. We are an aging squad so pressing from the front is no longer as viable because our CBs can't recover. Also do you trust our CMs to hold onto the ball? I'm happy enough if the likes of Winks and Sissoko don't lose it, let alone make use of it.

For me a sign of lacking desire is if players start to just 'pretend' to do their jobs. E.g. Willian at Arsenal; backtracks slow, doesnt even try to get in front of the opposition defence etc. or Eriksen in his final time with us. However I dont see this behavior in any of our players. Dier is a great example; played alot of mins, doesn't shy away. Yes he isn't the greatest CB but can't fault him for his limitations (which are well known, as is most of our squad). Same thing goes for Winks, Sissoko etc etc.

I think the result against Brighton today reinforces my point.

Brighton are a team that have finished near the relegation zone for 3 seasons on the trot and are down there currently.

We've had top 6 finishes and a CL final in the same time, and are currently in 6th place.

You wouldn't say that the Brighton squad has more quality than us, yet they've played us of the park this evening.

We're clearly not firing on all cylinders and until we are, it's very difficult to truly assess our squad's quality-ceiling.

But it's better than we are currently showing.

 

[ebzrascal]

I think Jose has lost the players we are out worked out thought and out fought in every game

 

[spurs mental]

If anyone thinks Jose is the only issue then they don't understand football.

Those players tonight and on Thursday were absolutely pathetic. No effort or heart. Pathetic.

Some of these players were the same players who threw Poch under the bus too. Mentally weak, down on their luck when things aren't going right.

 

[Black]

This issue is jose.

Not the players, he playing square pegs in rounds holes and expecting miracles.

This teams he is putting out are not balanced.

 

[dere911]

What abunch of fucking losers with no heart

 

[ultimateloner]

I think the result against Brighton today reinforces my point.

Brighton are a team that have finished near the relegation zone for 3 seasons on the trot and are down there currently.

We've had top 6 finishes and a CL final in the same time, and are currently in 6th place.

You wouldn't say that the Brighton squad has more quality than us, yet they've played us of the park this evening.

We're clearly not firing on all cylinders and until we are, it's very difficult to truly assess our squad's quality-ceiling.

But it's better than we are currently showing.

Its funny that we draw completely different conclusions from the game; I agree with you that Brighton outplayed us and should have had more, but I think it reflects how inferior we are on the technical side of the game. Here's my observations:

1st half was a contintuation of the second half against Liverpool. We had no answers against their press, so we couldn't hold onto the ball and make get it to our forwards. How I wish we had a someone like Dembele. I think the goal that we conceded came after a bad pass from the back, losing posession in our own third close to the 1/2 way line. Not enough time to regroup and that's the end of it. For me this is prove that our 'formula' of counter-attacking football doesn't work; we couldn't transition the ball from back to front after winning it, without Kane.

2nd half: I think Jose realized the above, so he uncharacteristically made a pro-active change swapping Vinicius in for Sanchez. He wanted us to take control of the game more and play on the front foot. If we had more technical ability; picking players out, playing around them etc we should have created more. I only remember one meaningful chance which was around the 75th min, a Vinicius shot, so that didn't work out.

What stood out to me across the whole match is that we have better atheletes than we have footballers. Brighton's squad as a whole kept and passed the ball much better; their front-players have much better ball control so protected the ball better in tight spaces. So once we tried to go toe-to-toe against them, they outplayed us.

So for me, it's a reflection that we lack ability or at least technique across the team. I dont feel that we lacked desire to win in this game.

 

[rez9000]

What abunch of fucking losers with no heart

A bit harshly put but, in essence, pretty much the case.

I'm going to attract a lot of flamage I think if I put it like this:

We are a loser club.

I'm sorry. I hate putting it like that and I can well understand the outrage it may evoke. I wish it weren't the case, with all my heart. It leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth to put it like that.

Maybe better to put it: we are a club that doesn't expect to win.

Now you'll hear a lot of stuff like 'DNA' and 'culture' and 'the bones of a club' in various football circles. And on the one hand, it's a bit wanky, but on the other it does point to something that does exist: the psychology or mentality underlying the basis of all sport.

It's not secret that the successful athlete will require not just the physical attributes, but mental / emotional ones too. Some have even said that the mental side of things is more important than the physical and certainly more widely, there is evidence to suggest that the mind can exert a measurable effect on the body.

Regardless, in order to succeed, you need some measure of mental strength.

I think we lack that. And we've lacked it for some time. I was speaking of this on SC years ago - back in 2013. Back then I said we lacked belief, but it amounts to the same thing.

Now, one could argue that all the relevant personnel have changed since then. And that's true. However, the players and staff who departed didn't do so together. And if there is an ingrained culture of "not expecting to win" that can be passed from old hand to new arrival, who then becomes the old hand who passes it on to the next new arrival. And so on. So the faces may change, but the culture remains.

What this club needs right now is some proper sports psychology work. We need some experts to come in and change the mentality of some of our players and weed out that little worm that seems to grow in every Spurs player at some point. The worm that makes us brittle.

And just as a parting note, changing the manager isn't the answer. The problem will remain.

 

[Black]

To all the people criticising the players would any of you have put out that team that Mourinho did against Brighton with the bench we have?

 

[dagraham]

A bit harshly put but, in essence, pretty much the case.

I'm going to attract a lot of flamage I think if I put it like this:

We are a loser club.

I'm sorry. I hate putting it like that and I can well understand the outrage it may evoke. I wish it weren't the case, with all my heart. It leaves a very bitter taste in my mouth to put it like that.

Maybe better to put it: we are a club that doesn't expect to win.

Now you'll hear a lot of stuff like 'DNA' and 'culture' and 'the bones of a club' in various football circles. And on the one hand, it's a bit wanky, but on the other it does point to something that does exist: the psychology or mentality underlying the basis of all sport.

It's not secret that the successful athlete will require not just the physical attributes, but mental / emotional ones too. Some have even said that the mental side of things is more important than the physical and certainly more widely, there is evidence to suggest that the mind can exert a measurable effect on the body.

Regardless, in order to succeed, you need some measure of mental strength.

I think we lack that. And we've lacked it for some time. I was speaking of this on SC years ago - back in 2013. Back then I said we lacked belief, but it amounts to the same thing.

Now, one could argue that all the relevant personnel have changed since then. And that's true. However, the players and staff who departed didn't do so together. And if there is an ingrained culture of "not expecting to win" that can be passed from old hand to new arrival, who then becomes the old hand who passes it on to the next new arrival. And so on. So the faces may change, but the culture remains.

What this club needs right now is some proper sports psychology work. We need some experts to come in and change the mentality of some of our players and weed out that little worm that seems to grow in every Spurs player at some point. The worm that makes us brittle.

And just as a parting note, changing the manager isn't the answer. The problem will remain.

Good post and I’ve said similar before. Even under Poch the message was always “punching above our weight” and “yeah, let’s see what happens”. Even getting to a final is lauded as some amazing achievement before we’ve even won the damn thing.

You can tell the subtext though is that we’ve done well to get where we are, but we don’t really belong there.

Whereas when you hear players from the top clubs it’s clear what is expected of them and failure is not tolerated. Of course you can’t always win, but when you don’t it isn’t good enough.

Like a lot of fans I was hoping Jose could at least be the one to change this mentality, but it’s not looking that way at the moment.

 

[yankspurs]

We are mental midgets. When the chips are down, we bend the knee to everyone. We need a massive clear out & have needed it for 3 years. Toby, Sanchez, Dier, Davies, Serge, Winks, Sissoko, Lucas & Lamela all need to be moved on.

 

[spurs mental]

To all the people criticising the players would any of you have put out that team that Mourinho did against Brighton with the bench we have?

The subs who came on made little or no difference either so that's irrelevant.

The team selection was shit but the bare minimum we should have to accept is that players selected put in the required effort. Not one of them did tonight. They were second best in every aspect tonight.