Our players lack desire

[yido_number1]

I don't care if the players are enjoying the football or not. This isn't sunday league football or a kickabout with mates.

They get paid to make an effort. This bollocks we've been watching should be covered under self pride.

 

[ultimateloner]

Too much mediocrity in the squad, some who have been here for years, and honestly believe a lot of them are just comfortable plodding along picking up their wages and securing their financial futures while trotting out the 'we need to work harder' bollocks every now again.

Too many out their who don't have the hunger or desire to actually fight for something of note. No amount of arm waving, finger pointing or coasting under the 'nice guy' tag is going to change that. Just feels like its a job to many of them. Come in, train at a fantastic facility, play at a great new stadium all while picking up a great wage. A lot of them are just winging it if you look at their level of ability and/or attitude and if they were at clubs that are serious about challenging, they'd have been weeded out years ago.

We persist with these type of players for years and the mind-set of accepting mediocrity spreads amongst the squad.

The same can be said of most working professionals across different industries, so I dont expect any different. If you take someone like say Dier; it's not reasonable to see him busting a gut constantly. He has reached his ceiling, is professional enough and will always come with both his strenghts and flaws.

It's when the 80/20 rule comes in. We need the 20% to carry the 80% which isn't happening this season because, IMO, Son has been misfiring.

However Son's earned enough credit for me to not bemoan him too much. Others who have the ability to partly cover him (Romero/Kulu/Bentacur) have all had their shares of problems too.

 

[AnotherSpursFan]

GLC had desire and was tenacious, but was unlucky with injuries.
Reguilon and Gill had quality and desire

Hopefully the new manager would bring them back.

 

[mil1lion]

What have the players got to be passionate about here? There's no demand to succeed or win things. Spurs are a team who pay big wages to challenge for top 4. If they fail the manager gets the blame so we change manager again. Its a dream club for players who don't care about winning titles. Get paid well and play without pressure and expectations. It's become accepted here that we don't win things. We need a new owner if that is ever going to change. Someone to come in and demand success. Those who fail to show that hunger and desire get replaced.

 

[ultimateloner]

What have the players got to be passionate about here? There's no demand to succeed or win things. Spurs are a team who pay big wages to challenge for top 4. If they fail the manager gets the blame so we change manager again. Its a dream club for players who don't care about winning titles. Get paid well and play without pressure and expectations. It's become accepted here that we don't win things. We need a new owner if that is ever going to change. Someone to come in and demand success. Those who fail to show that hunger and desire get replaced.

i agree with your reasoning but would rather we dont try to become a new Chelsea, even if it means being a top-4-challenging club instead of a title-challenging club in the forseeable future.

There is beauty in being a nurturing club at the lower level of the foodchain. You don't always have to be or strive to be the apex predator.

 

[mil1lion]

i agree with your reasoning but would rather we dont try to become a new Chelsea, even if it means being a top-4-challenging club instead of a title-challenging club in the forseeable future.

There is beauty in being a nurturing club at the lower level of the foodchain. You don't always have to be or strive to be the apex predator.

Sorry to break it to you but we were the big spenders when we had success before Sugar and Levy. Although it's good to have an owner from the UK we have to spend to succeed. I don't want to sell our soul either but would it not be ok for a US owner for example to come in and spend big? If Arsenal win the league they'll have done it spending massively just like most teams. Will they not be proud? After all they don't have some dodgy owner but just an ambitious one. Bottom line is the teams who spend the most money are the teams who win the most trophies. We used to be the big spenders back in the day signing record fees on Greaves and Gazza or bringing the first foreign signings to English football. We won titles because of it. We've lived through 3 decades under tight budget owners with little to no ambition other than to run a club as a sustainable profit making business. We can sell the club without selling our soul. There's plenty of wealthy people out there, we just need one who wants to win titles.

 

[ultimateloner]

Sorry to break it to you but we were the big spenders when we had success before Sugar and Levy. Although it's good to have an owner from the UK we have to spend to succeed. I don't want to sell our soul either but would it not be ok for a US owner for example to come in and spend big? If Arsenal win the league they'll have done it spending massively just like most teams. Will they not be proud? After all they don't have some dodgy owner but just an ambitious one. Bottom line is the teams who spend the most money are the teams who win the most trophies. We used to be the big spenders back in the day signing record fees on Greaves and Gazza or bringing the first foreign signings to English football. We won titles because of it. We've lived through 3 decades under tight budget owners with little to no ambition other than to run a club as a sustainable profit making business. We can sell the club without selling our soul. There's plenty of wealthy people out there, we just need one who wants to win titles.

I agree with your reasoning that if we were to become a consistent title challenger we need to spend alot bigger than we currently do, which would most likely happen under a different ownership.

I would caution against the notion of an ambitious owner. It's roll of a dice.

The Glazer family is renowned for saddling Man Utd with debt for their own gain, and Man Utd had suffered much more than us in recent times (ever since Fergie retired). Their relative success has been short-lived (less than 1/2 season) so the Glazers still have much to prove. A similar thing can be said of the Kronkes; Arsenal has been awful last season and the one before, and it remains to be seen whether they will continue their current form next season.

Chelsea had spent big to no effect this season. They have gone through much bigger player/staff turnover than we have.

Liverpool has been the only team that saw consistent improvement under foreign ownership. That's 1/4 amongst the top 6.

Moreover, it's also the roll of a dice to count on the whims of an owner. An owner can be ambitious the next few seasons and completely lose interest by the 4th.

Therefore for me, given the risks, I dont define success as titles won. It helps if we win something. But I appreciate highly what ENIC had brought to us last 20 years; we are competing at a level reflective of our wage structure and general prestige/reputation. We've never been a top club in terms of things won and I dont see why that should change. My support to the club isn't contingent on us winning. Just stay within what's acceptable and thats good enough for me.

 

[mil1lion]

I agree with your reasoning that if we were to become a consistent title challenger we need to spend alot bigger than we currently do, which would most likely happen under a different ownership.

I would caution against the notion of an ambitious owner. It's roll of a dice.

The Glazer family is renowned for saddling Man Utd with debt for their own gain, and Man Utd had suffered much more than us in recent times (ever since Fergie retired). Their relative success has been short-lived (less than 1/2 season) so the Glazers still have much to prove. A similar thing can be said of the Kronkes; Arsenal has been awful last season and the one before, and it remains to be seen whether they will continue their current form next season.

Chelsea had spent big to no effect this season. They have gone through much bigger player/staff turnover than we have.

Liverpool has been the only team that saw consistent improvement under foreign ownership. That's 1/4 amongst the top 6.

Moreover, it's also the roll of a dice to count on the whims of an owner. An owner can be ambitious the next few seasons and completely lose interest by the 4th.

Therefore for me, given the risks, I dont define success as titles won. It helps if we win something. But I appreciate highly what ENIC had brought to us last 20 years; we are competing at a level reflective of our wage structure and general prestige/reputation. We've never been a top club in terms of things won and I dont see why that should change. My support to the club isn't contingent on us winning. Just stay within what's acceptable and thats good enough for me.

That's incredibly sad saying that it's enough to just do enough. If that's enough we should drop ticket prices then. I would say the club was famous for being a cup team so I wouldn't say we've never been a top team. We've rarely won the league but we had won trophies in each decade up until the 2010s. It's simply not healthy to have the same owner for over 20 years. We need a change simple as that. Utd have still won things under the Glazers as bad as they have been and they've still spent big. With all that said the fans have pushed for change and got it. We don't do enough to try and change the failure culture of the club.

 

[ultimateloner]

That's incredibly sad saying that it's enough to just do enough. If that's enough we should drop ticket prices then. I would say the club was famous for being a cup team so I wouldn't say we've never been a top team. We've rarely won the league but we had won trophies in each decade up until the 2010s. It's simply not healthy to have the same owner for over 20 years. We need a change simple as that. Utd have still won things under the Glazers as bad as they have been and they've still spent big. With all that said the fans have pushed for change and got it. We don't do enough to try and change the failure culture of the club.

I think ticket prices is a function of many things; the football on show is 1 of the factors. We seem to be filling the stadium despite the suboptimal quality on show, so that's enough evidence. Obviously it does mean the fans who go predominantly for the football should go less; but that's probably happening anyway and someone else with a diff preference is taking their spot.

I agree with you that we are a cup team but since we aren't regular title challengers, we are not a top team. I feel that to be considered top, you need to be a title challenger (since that's what pays the bills).

If I was a Man Utd fan, I would classify all the time under Glazers as failure; regardless of cup won or not. They've spent big for little to no return over the years, e.g: Maguire, De Maria, Sanchez..so many. The owners have gone as far as filling the own pockets at the expense of the club's financial health. Better results recently isn't enough to offset that.

Big spend for nothing is worse than spending less for nothing; so in that respect we are a much more optimal club in terms of managment.

 

[JW72]

That's incredibly sad saying that it's enough to just do enough. If that's enough we should drop ticket prices then. I would say the club was famous for being a cup team so I wouldn't say we've never been a top team. We've rarely won the league but we had won trophies in each decade up until the 2010s. It's simply not healthy to have the same owner for over 20 years. We need a change simple as that. Utd have still won things under the Glazers as bad as they have been and they've still spent big. With all that said the fans have pushed for change and got it. We don't do enough to try and change the failure culture of the club.

@mil1lion , @ultimateloner - is it odd that, as I read your exchange, I find myself agreeing with both of you?

 

[mil1lion]

I think ticket prices is a function of many things; the football on show is 1 of the factors. We seem to be filling the stadium despite the suboptimal quality on show, so that's enough evidence. Obviously it does mean the fans who go predominantly for the football should go less; but that's probably happening anyway and someone else with a diff preference is taking their spot.

I agree with you that we are a cup team but since we aren't regular title challengers, we are not a top team. I feel that to be considered top, you need to be a title challenger (since that's what pays the bills).

If I was a Man Utd fan, I would classify all the time under Glazers as failure; regardless of cup won or not. They've spent big for little to no return over the years, e.g: Maguire, De Maria, Sanchez..so many. The owners have gone as far as filling the own pockets at the expense of the club's financial health. Better results recently isn't enough to offset that.

Big spend for nothing is worse than spending less for nothing; so in that respect we are a much more optimal club in terms of managment.

At least they've spent big money though and won titles. ENIC has 1 league Cup to their name. Sugar had 1 league Cup to his name. That's ultimately what they will be judged on. Even Leicester have won more than we have under ENIC.

 

[mil1lion]

@mil1lion , @ultimateloner - is it odd that, as I read your exchange, I find myself agreeing with both of you?

Not really, I think you can certainly say we've done well over the years. We've consistently been in Europe and we have done better than the 90s. Its also fair to want to push to achieve more than that. I think you have to show more ambition than we have over the years rather than settle with being a stable challenger. If we don't push for more now we will get overtaken as Newcastle push us out of the big 6 picture. The difference is they will probably win something too. I do think if ENIC sold now they can be proud of the foundation they've built. They just don't have the ambition on the pitch to push for more. I feel we've outgrown them honestly.

 

[ultimateloner]

At least they've spent big money though and won titles. ENIC has 1 league Cup to their name. Sugar had 1 league Cup to his name. That's ultimately what they will be judged on. Even Leicester have won more than we have under ENIC.

If the judgement comes from someone who just goes on wiki to look at things won, with no knowledge of the context.
Leicester is struggling. Blackburn isn’t even in PL anymore. These opinions don’t matter.

 

[ultimateloner]

@mil1lion , @ultimateloner - is it odd that, as I read your exchange, I find myself agreeing with both of you?

I think we have alot of common ground. We both agree that ENIC is unlikely to take the club beyond where it is now and that a different ownership will be needed for change.

We disagree on whether we want that change.

I'm satisfied with being a top-4 challenger (which is getting harder anyway with Newcastle). A new ownership is a roll of a dice. We may very well become debt-laden.

I can tolerate lack of ambition (ENIC), because at least the club is sustainable and no one is getting ripped off.

The Glazer treatment I can't tolerate. It's lawful but unethical.

 

[ultimateloner]

Not really, I think you can certainly say we've done well over the years. We've consistently been in Europe and we have done better than the 90s. Its also fair to want to push to achieve more than that. I think you have to show more ambition than we have over the years rather than settle with being a stable challenger. If we don't push for more now we will get overtaken as Newcastle push us out of the big 6 picture. The difference is they will probably win something too. I do think if ENIC sold now they can be proud of the foundation they've built. They just don't have the ambition on the pitch to push for more. I feel we've outgrown them honestly.

I agree with your rationale. I think it will get harder to even be a top-4 challenger. Newc has done well and they've hardly flexed their financial muscle yet.

ENIC is probably trying to sell out as well, just no one is willing to pay up yet.

I merely caution that whoever the new owner is, may not be what you hope for.

 

[mil1lion]

If the judgement comes from someone who just goes on wiki to look at things won, with no knowledge of the context.
Leicester is struggling. Blackburn isn’t even in PL anymore. These opinions don’t matter.

But you can't put Utd in the same bracket of those. They're still competing in Europe just like we have been. Yet they win titles unlike us. I'm not saying Glazers are great but it's not like they've not spent big and won things. The fact of the matter is Utd dominated for years until the landscape changed. Even Arsenal dominated for a while. Then Chelski happened and the game was changed. City joined them and all of a sudden those teams won far less. We have to adapt to the change or get left further behind. Arsenal changed ownership and now its paying off. Utd are pushing for change and its paying off despite them still under the Glazers. We just seem to want to accept things as they are.

 

[cider spurs]

Need a bit more grit and desire.

 

[CheeseGromit]

Sorry to break it to you but we were the big spenders when we had success before Sugar and Levy. Although it's good to have an owner from the UK we have to spend to succeed. I don't want to sell our soul either but would it not be ok for a US owner for example to come in and spend big? If Arsenal win the league they'll have done it spending massively just like most teams. Will they not be proud? After all they don't have some dodgy owner but just an ambitious one. Bottom line is the teams who spend the most money are the teams who win the most trophies. We used to be the big spenders back in the day signing record fees on Greaves and Gazza or bringing the first foreign signings to English football. We won titles because of it. We've lived through 3 decades under tight budget owners with little to no ambition other than to run a club as a sustainable profit making business. We can sell the club without selling our soul. There's plenty of wealthy people out there, we just need one who wants to win titles.

It is oh so different now Football has changed beyond recognition Even big spenders in them days only bought a player or two
Many teams challenged for the league and it changed who was the best from one year to the next
I hate the fact we dont have swathes of money to throw around but we do also have to live in a real world
Money buys you the titles. And not everytime

 

[ultimateloner]

But you can't put Utd in the same bracket of those. They're still competing in Europe just like we have been. Yet they win titles unlike us. I'm not saying Glazers are great but it's not like they've not spent big and won things. The fact of the matter is Utd dominated for years until the landscape changed. Even Arsenal dominated for a while. Then Chelski happened and the game was changed. City joined them and all of a sudden those teams won far less. We have to adapt to the change or get left further behind. Arsenal changed ownership and now its paying off. Utd are pushing for change and its paying off despite them still under the Glazers. We just seem to want to accept things as they are.

I think your points are valid. The competitive landscape has intensified so more firepower is needed. We are probably looking at 100m immediately just to make the squad up to CL-standard, and then 50m +/window thereafter; and that's before replacing Kane. All this just to look like we belong; so not yet title-challenger level.

It's unlikely that ENIC will be willing to put that sort of money in. I dont know if stadium revenue is sufficient either.

I guess that means at some point we will have to roll a dice ownership-wise to stay relevant. Which leads to the question of when/who.

Personally I dont support the 'ENIC/DL out' chants. I dont get why fans would want to do that. ENIC/DL will sell to the highest bidder, at least at whatever level it is they want. The only real threat that fans can do is to not go to games; but that would also lead to a lower bid from whoever might be interested, so DL/ENIC has a smaller chance of selling out.

 

[cliff jones]

I agree with your reasoning that if we were to become a consistent title challenger we need to spend alot bigger than we currently do, which would most likely happen under a different ownership.

I would caution against the notion of an ambitious owner. It's roll of a dice.

The Glazer family is renowned for saddling Man Utd with debt for their own gain, and Man Utd had suffered much more than us in recent times (ever since Fergie retired). Their relative success has been short-lived (less than 1/2 season) so the Glazers still have much to prove. A similar thing can be said of the Kronkes; Arsenal has been awful last season and the one before, and it remains to be seen whether they will continue their current form next season.

Chelsea had spent big to no effect this season. They have gone through much bigger player/staff turnover than we have.

Liverpool has been the only team that saw consistent improvement under foreign ownership. That's 1/4 amongst the top 6.

Moreover, it's also the roll of a dice to count on the whims of an owner. An owner can be ambitious the next few seasons and completely lose interest by the 4th.

Therefore for me, given the risks, I dont define success as titles won. It helps if we win something. But I appreciate highly what ENIC had brought to us last 20 years; we are competing at a level reflective of our wage structure and general prestige/reputation. We've never been a top club in terms of things won and I dont see why that should change. My support to the club isn't contingent on us winning. Just stay within what's acceptable and thats good enough for me.

WALOB, and off topic