Player Watch Player Watch: Destiny Udogie

[fishhhandaricecake]

But you’re making the mistake of thinking this is an individual issue. It’s not an isolated case of someone focusing on one persons physical attributes. It’s a full blown study that shows that black sports people are overwhelmingly praised on their physical attributes alone, while white sports people are overwhelmingly praised for their intelligence and skill.

It’s not a conscious thing, and as others have gone into detail several times, it’s not about intent or accusing anyone of being racist. It’s about considering our language and being thoughtful in how we view people and speak about them.



There are plenty of posts in this thread simply dismissing the idea out of hand, and ignoring the reasoning behind it. I’d include some of your posts in that. You’ve said several times that the intent behind “beast” isn’t derogatory, but this isn’t about intent, and the people in here who’ve raised the issue have made that clear a number of times, yet still we are hearing people say things like “I mean it in a nice way” “it’s a compliment” “people are desperate to see offence in everything these days.” That’s what I mean by people burying their heads in the sand.

This is very contradictory if you're saying that it isn't racist (which it isn't.) and it is about 'considering our language and being thoughtful in how we view people and speak about them', then surely those who have explained their positive connotations as to calling someone a 'beast of a player' have therefore been thoughtful and considerate about the language they're using because they're fully aware of their intended meaning behind it.

I get your sentiment I really do and society has come a long way in recent times in many issues to do with race, sex, gender, religion you name it but there is a fine line these days between the word police and cancel culture coming out any every and any opportunity and frankly making issues and problems where there need not be one.

That is the last I will say on this because I think its an interesting conversation topic but most in this thread would appreciate getting it back on topic to discussing the football player Destiny Udogie not the nouns or adjectives used to describe his playing style.

 

[fishhhandaricecake]

Yeah I agree especially with Udogie who is physical but also clever and technical. I think its just lazy from pundits who see a physical looking person and assume that's what their game is about because they don't have the knowledge.

Anyone who goes by what Souness says probably also resides on Twitter or X or whatever the heck it’s called now.

Back to topic, I thought our boy Destiny had a solid game tonight especially after an early yellow which he was stitched up on and had to make that foul.

The guy plays well beyond his years, absolute gem from Paratici.

 

[SpursSince1980]

He played well tonight. Mostly up against Foden. As we have seen, not remotely phased by the occasion. I hope he continues to develop and go from strength to strength. We are blessed to have him.

 

[TOLBINY]

I thought he got caught with poor positioning / body shape a couple of times against Foden but I have faith that those types of things will gradually get ironed out of his game with more top level experience.

 

[spursfan77]

He played well tonight. Mostly up against Foden. As we have seen, not remotely phased by the occasion. I hope he continues to develop and go from strength to strength. We are blessed to have him.

You can see he’s got that top level mentality. He’s already good but he is going to turn into some player in the future.

 

[worcestersauce]

The position he played was different to his normal one, he played on the left but Italy seemed to drop to a back five to defend and he tucked in like the left CB rather than the wing back roll or straight left back he's used to.
I did notice just after he went off Foden absolutely skinned the guy that replaced him to get to line and put a cross in, he'd not managed that all game.

 

[mil1lion]

He must be loving the challenge, so far come up against Saka, Salah and Foden. He seems a bit slow to start and needs to try avoid those first half yellow cards. However for someone so young he's growing into every game. He looks best when he's carrying the ball forward. He did well for their goal and was unlucky with his weaker foot which was saved. There were times he would pass and move forward only for the player to pass back. You can already see the influence of what Ange is doing.

 

[bubble07]

Ball carrying skills are excellent and always looks for return passes in final 3rd which is great

 

[cjsimba]

He must be loving the challenge, so far come up against Saka, Salah and Foden. He seems a bit slow to start and needs to try avoid those first half yellow cards. However for someone so young he's growing into every game. He looks best when he's carrying the ball forward. He did well for their goal and was unlucky with his weaker foot which was saved. There were times he would pass and move forward only for the player to pass back. You can already see the influence of what Ange is doing.

The yellow card was definitely not his fault. His teammate sold him short and he had to take one for the team to stop a very dangerous attack for England.

 

[thecook]

Didn't watch the game but just saw Kane's 2nd. I did wonder if he'd have scored that had Udogie still been on the pitch.

 

[Tucker]

This is very contradictory if you're saying that it isn't racist (which it isn't.) and it is about 'considering our language and being thoughtful in how we view people and speak about them', then surely those who have explained their positive connotations as to calling someone a 'beast of a player' have therefore been thoughtful and considerate about the language they're using because they're fully aware of their intended meaning behind it.

Sorry, but you simply aren’t understanding the issue here. You need to re-read my first paragraph. This isn’t about individuals using words with a certain intent. Several users have asked that people think about the language they use to describe black players. Nobody is saying any one individual is intentionally setting out to say something racist. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t doing it unconsciously. Nobody is saying that any one individual is deliberately reducing black players down to only their physical, and animalistic attributes. No one, I hope, is setting out to be a racist by calling Sarr, Udogie, or Bissouma as a beast. But people should probably have a think about why it’s almost always black players that are described in this way.

If people can’t see the problem with black players consistently being compared to brutish animals with only their physical prowess praised, while white players are consistently praised for their intelligence, guile and technique, then I’m not sure there’s anything more I can say about it.

That’s on you guys. Several people have explained this calmy and politely now. I’m going to take @MichaelPawson ’s attitude on this one now, you’ve all had this laid out for you now, if you want to carry on doing this then it’s on you, and I’ll consider that you’re now making a conscious choice to use this kind of language.

That’s the last I’ll say on it in this thread.

 

[mil1lion]

The yellow card was definitely not his fault. His teammate sold him short and he had to take one for the team to stop a very dangerous attack for England.

It's not easy though, Foden was on halfway and Italy had a few players back so he could have avoided it. That's not so much the one in isolation though, I could understand it last night. It's just he also got booked first half against arsenal and Liverpool. It just makes life more difficult against these top players when you're carrying a yellow for a long time.

 

[mil1lion]

Sorry, but you simply aren’t understanding the issue here. You need to re-read my first paragraph. This isn’t about individuals using words with a certain intent. Several users have asked that people think about the language they use to describe black players. Nobody is saying any one individual is intentionally setting out to say something racist. It doesn’t mean that they aren’t doing it unconsciously. Nobody is saying that any one individual is deliberately reducing black players down to only their physical, and animalistic attributes. No one, I hope, is setting out to be a racist by calling Sarr, Udogie, or Bissouma as a beast. But people should probably have a think about why it’s almost always black players that are described in this way.

If people can’t see the problem with black players consistently being compared to brutish animals with only their physical prowess praised, while white players are consistently praised for their intelligence, guile and technique, then I’m not sure there’s anything more I can say about it.

That’s on you guys. Several people have explained this calmy and politely now. I’m going to take @MichaelPawson ’s attitude on this one now, you’ve all had this laid out for you now, if you want to carry on doing this then it’s on you, and I’ll consider that you’re now making a conscious choice to use this kind of language.

That’s the last I’ll say on it in this thread.

Not wanting to drag this on but I will just say searching the forum that the word beast has been used for Maddison, Kulusevski, VdV, Sarr, Bentancur, Bissouma, Udogie, Sandro, Porro and Johnson. That's the first 3 pages that I scrolled through so the suggestion that it's mostly black players isn't correct. Certainly on this forum at least. I just wanted to mention that because I thought it would be interesting to see the use of the word on these forums. I've not really paid so much attention to it before. It just seems to be very much a slang term used in the modern language now. I just wanted to set your mind at ease a little that it isn't being used for a particular race on the site.

 

[easley91]

It's not easy though, Foden was on halfway and Italy had a few players back so he could have avoided it. That's not so much the one in isolation though, I could understand it last night. It's just he also got booked first half against arsenal and Liverpool. It just makes life more difficult against these top players when you're carrying a yellow for a long time.

He's 20, new club, new league, new system and last night was his first Italy start for a new Italy manager who has his own style. I'd imagine being inexperienced, still learning and nerves may have contributed to early yellows. The positive sign is how he reacts after these early bookings. You also have to consider the players he has been up against in these games. Not exactly amateurs Saka, Salah and Foden,

 

[boy-C]

When thinking of a beast this guy is my first thought

and then I think of the bird my mate got off with once in my younger clubbing days and she reminded me of the honey monster

But to describe a footballer as a beast makes me think more of Blanka someone who is strong, powerful and dominates their opponents. Personally I think the people trying to make these racist connections are the ones who do most harm when it's only a very small minority that actually think like that, all they're doing is making the word more offensive.
Just my opinion...

 

[Freddie]

Once again, I'd like to respectfully ask you to consider who you are choosing to have empathy for in this conversation: a group of people for whom coded language represents a wider pattern of discrimination and prejudice they experience in society, or someone who got mildly scolded on a message board. Because that's really all that happened in the latter case. No one got "cancelled", no one got fired from their job or shunned by the wider community. They were just told to be mindful of what words they were using- to treat this like it's some sort of punishment is baffling to me.

It's about the pious tone people take when trying to 'teach' other people about something that a group of people have decided has become offensive in the last five minutes, and occasionally it's tantamount to bullying in itself, especially when it comes to older people. That's not to say that what is deemed to be acceptable language shouldn't evolve, and has done for the better, but in this case it's a word for which there is no consensus amongst black people or anyone else. If you consider the context and intent in this instance it's used to praise and show affection. I don't see why it should be eliminated from the footballing lexicon. Like with most other words, it's about how you use it.

 

[Mr Pink]

Jesus Christ, what a boring debate to send this thread off topic.

 

[Tucker]

It's quite ironic that you've spoken out against the pretty fair use of beast and used the trope of praising black people for using calm language. See how we can tie ourselves up in knots?

Sorry, but what?

 

[Freddie]

Sorry, but what?

You're talking about the connotations of the word beast when used to describe black players, and despite it being meant in a positive way it can be interpreted as racist. Commentators are frequently criticised for saying Saka/Rashford are such polite, calm, thoughtful young men when you talk to them. Also something they intend to be a positive thing but you wouldn't say that about white players (inference being you wouldn't expect black players to be polite). It's similar to what you've done.

 

[ajspurs]