Player Watch: Pierre-Emile Højbjerg

[Rosco1984]

Some very good points.

I would add to this that Hojbjerg and Bissouma are different players, and while they could be employed in the same area of the pitch it should be for different reasons (with varying levels of success if not done in this manner).

To me, personally, this is the crux of the debate around PEH. He is clearly very good at a set of things (if people wish to ignore stats, that's up to them - there's a $750 million industry that would suggest they do mean something). It's a set of things that doesn't work in every team/system though. Might mean that he is a limited player, if he is unable to add to his game, and may not be suitable for the systems we want to play. In which case, he should be sold. (Or, as you say, be used as backup or rotation option. Possibly a horse for a very specific course.)

He's suitable for clogging up the midfield in a low block defensive side. He's immobile, hides from the ball and let's be honest he does pass forwards a lot but that's because there's not a lot further back the ball can get when he gets it in our system the past couple of seasons. Valuable signing for any relegation battler not a top half side time to go whether his fault or not he will always be the player that symbolises more than any the post Poch misery for me.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Progressive passes in these stats are defined as:


In terms of actual yardage, he still passes it forward more than any other midfielder in our team. Which isn't much of a surprise either - he's top 10 in the Premier League for accurate long balls per 90 (across all outfield players).

Also, it does not say he is better at progressive passes than KDB. It says he does it at a higher success rate, which is true - and expected. KDB plays higher risk passes, so naturally less of them will be accurate.

So, sure, context is always important. But to completely dismiss these stats out of hand and say that he is not a progressive MF overall is not accurate.

Fair enough, however the KDB part of the argument still stands. Using your long ball example, all those long balls over the top would count towards this statistic and therefore skew it in PEH's favor vs KDB's numbers which as you said are more risk but probably more progressive than a long ball over the top.

Just so you know I am not attacking the argument here, just adding context where the stats can be a bit misleading.

They are not misleading at all for debunking the ridiculous "he only passes backwards or sideways" argument.

Defining what counts as a progressive midfielder and what the passes up the pitch leads to are different discussions. I don't think anyone has ever argued that PEH is a more productive, chance-creating midfielder than KDB. And that chart isn't arguing it either.

Once again, fair enough. However we all know from what we've SEEN with our eyes as spurs fans that PEH is guilty of passing backwards or sideways way more often than he passes forwards or even looks to pass forwards. See my above reply to Jaco regarding long balls for an example.

The chart is definitely laid out to make PEH look a lot more effective for us than what've he has been in reality. It also literally puts KDB below him due to how the chart is setup.

Unfortunately, as with any statistics or charts, they can be used to fit whichever narrative you want to follow.

All I am saying is he isn't as good as that chart has made him out to be.

 

[Whazam]

Once again, fair enough. However we all know from what we've SEEN with our eyes as spurs fans that PEH is guilty of passing backwards or sideways way more often than he passes forwards or even looks to pass forwards. See my above reply to Jaco regarding long balls for an example.

The chart is definitely laid out to make PEH look a lot more effective for us than what've he has been in reality. It also literally puts KDB below him due to how the chart is setup.

Unfortunately, as with any statistics or charts, they can be used to fit whichever narrative you want to follow.

All I am saying is he isn't as good as that chart has made him out to be.

Well, my argument in this thread over the last couple of months has been that people's negative opinion of PEH make them accuse him of things that don't quite correlate with reality. I believe that their dislike for him make them SEE and focus only on the negatives and mistakes. Him not passing the ball up the pitch is one of those things. The eye test doesn't count for much without anything backing it up, especially not when it comes to a player a lot of people obviously can't stand, and especially not when there are so many different metrics that tell the opposite.

Maybe he passes the ball backwards or sideways more than he passes it up the pitch, I don't know, the fact is that he still passes it in that direction more than most players. His pass progression value is another discussion (one where criticism aimed at PEH would be more than fair btw. Although I don't understand how accurate long balls from PEH support your claim here; isn't that a good thing from him whichever way you look at it?).

As for the chart, for this particular metric, he is more effective than KDB (at least at the time of the creation of the chart). That doesn't mean it argues he is a better player than KDB or anyone else, just that he does more of one particular thing. If anyone reads more into that, I think that's on them.

Fortunately, this piece of statistic is very specific, so there is no need to read into it too much. But for the sake of this just as specific discussion, it does, together with a lot of similar statistics, clearly debunks the idea that him only playing the ball backwards is a standout characteristic in his game.

Why are you saying he is not as good as the chart says, when it literally says he is that good on the thing it is measuring?

My goal here is in no way to paint the picture of PEH as the best midfielder in the world (I think we should sell him if we get a decent payment for him). It's just to add some perspective in order to stop people from turning him into a scapegoat and pile onto a guy who tries his best for the team we all love, simply based on emotions and preferences.

 

[-Afri-Coy-]

Well, my argument in this thread over the last couple of months has been that people's negative opinion of PEH make them accuse him of things that don't quite correlate with reality. I believe that their dislike for him make them SEE and focus only on the negatives and mistakes. Him not passing the ball up the pitch is one of those things. The eye test doesn't count for much without anything backing it up, especially not when it comes to a player a lot of people obviously can't stand, and especially not when there are so many different metrics that tell the opposite.

Maybe he passes the ball backwards or sideways more than he passes it up the pitch, I don't know, the fact is that he still passes it in that direction more than most players. His pass progression value is another discussion (one where criticism aimed at PEH would be more than fair btw. Although I don't understand how accurate long balls from PEH support your claim here; isn't that a good thing from him whichever way you look at it?).

As for the chart, for this particular metric, he is more effective than KDB (at least at the time of the creation of the chart). That doesn't mean it argues he is a better player than KDB or anyone else, just that he does more of one particular thing. If anyone reads more into that, I think that's on them.

Fortunately, this piece of statistic is very specific, so there is no need to read into it too much. But for the sake of this just as specific discussion, it does, together with a lot of similar statistics, clearly debunks the idea that him only playing the ball backwards is a standout characteristic in his game.

Why are you saying he is not as good as the chart says, when it literally says he is that good on the thing it is measuring?

My goal here is in no way to paint the picture of PEH as the best midfielder in the world (I think we should sell him if we get a decent payment for him). It's just to add some perspective in order to stop people from turning him into a scapegoat and pile onto a guy who tries his best for the team we all love, simply based on emotions and preferences.

The point I’m trying to make is statistics in general tell half of the story at best. The reason why I used the long balls as an example is that to qualify for the metric the chart is using (forward passes more than 10 yards) it doesn’t necessarily need to be an effective forward pass that actually achieves something on the pitch to make it into this statistic. That’s why it’s misleading.

Another thing that can be overlooked is that PEH has spent more time on the pitch than any other player for spurs this season. That means he’s had more time on the pitch to make ineffective passes that would still count towards the statistics. Now I’m not saying this is all he does, and ofcourse he’s had effective progressive passes too, but the chart doesn’t make that distinction.

You may call this reading into it too much but in general we have to do this with football statistics or we have a blinded view of what actually happens on the pitch. Statistically We were the third highest goal scorers for a large portion of the past season but for the majority of it fans were complaining about the football that we were served up. If we only looked at it from a basic statistical standpoint we wouldn’t have any legs to stand on in terms of complaint. So you almost have to read into statistics more than what meets the eye to get a true comprehensive view on a specific statistic.

I do understand your point of view completely, and I respect it so I hope mine comes across a bit better now.

 

[EastUpperDK82]

Great game from Højbjerg so far against Slovenia... came to the rescue for Denmark twice after two defensive errors... running and fighting all over the pitch... and then a perfect assist from the left wing... skipped past a defender and whipped in a flat cross with his left foot for Højlund's goal.. ... action man !

 

[dtxspurs]

Great game from Højbjerg so far against Slovenia... came to the rescue for Denmark twice after two defensive errors... running and fighting all over the pitch... and then a perfect assist from the left wing... skipped past a defender and whipped in a flat cross with his left foot for Højlund's goal.. ... action man !

Link to the goal

Streamja

 

[WiganSpur]

Fair enough, however the KDB part of the argument still stands. Using your long ball example, all those long balls over the top would count towards this statistic and therefore skew it in PEH's favor vs KDB's numbers which as you said are more risk but probably more progressive than a long ball over the top.

Just so you know I am not attacking the argument here, just adding context where the stats can be a bit misleading.


Once again, fair enough. However we all know from what we've SEEN with our eyes as spurs fans that PEH is guilty of passing backwards or sideways way more often than he passes forwards or even looks to pass forwards. See my above reply to Jaco regarding long balls for an example.

The chart is definitely laid out to make PEH look a lot more effective for us than what've he has been in reality. It also literally puts KDB below him due to how the chart is setup.

Unfortunately, as with any statistics or charts, they can be used to fit whichever narrative you want to follow.

All I am saying is he isn't as good as that chart has made him out to be.

I see him as someone who sometimes passes sloppily and is slow at navigating pressure rather than someone who passes backwards and sideways.

 

[Styopa]

He's been one of our better buys since the Champions League Final, but that's part of the problem. He's wholly synonymous with a period of decline.

He would have been more popular had we bought him at our peak and used him as a rotation option when we still had Dembele and Wanyama and were also using Dier as a CM. He certainly would have been a better option than the Sissoko-Winks combination we increasingly relied on during Poch's last full season.

 

[SUIYHA]

He's been one of our better buys since the Champions League Final, but that's part of the problem. He's wholly synonymous with a period of decline.

He would have been more popular had we bought him at our peak and used him as a rotation option when we still had Dembele and Wanyama and were also using Dier as a CM. He certainly would have been a better option than the Sissoko-Winks combination we increasingly relied on during Poch's last full season.

Sums up pretty much how I feel. Not a "bad" player - but he's been our looked to as our star/senior midfielder for the past 3 seasons, other than the 30 odd games in which Bentancur has played.

Looking at rivals with the likes of Gundogan, Rodri, De Bruyne, Odegaard, Casimero, Guimaraes, Thiago etc - is it any wonder we've played the kind of football we have in comparison?

Put it this way - if we'd had Scott Parker who was great alongside Modric and Van Der Vaart, or Wanyama who was great alongside Dembele and Eriksen - starting every game for us in the last few years as our main creative midfielder, what result would you expect?

Could make a good squad player, but the worry is he may well become our captain next season if Kane and Lloris leave.

 

[mil1lion]

He's been one of our better buys since the Champions League Final, but that's part of the problem. He's wholly synonymous with a period of decline.

He would have been more popular had we bought him at our peak and used him as a rotation option when we still had Dembele and Wanyama and were also using Dier as a CM. He certainly would have been a better option than the Sissoko-Winks combination we increasingly relied on during Poch's last full season.

Sissoko was player of the season which shows the level we fell too. Hojbjerg kind of fits into that category, one of our better players but also an example of how poor we've been. As soon as Bentancur came in he was way ahead in quality. I fancy Bissouma will be ahead next season too. He does some things better than Skipp who also does some better than Hojbjerg. I think they're both likely to be squad players and then you have Sarr coming through who looks to have a high ceiling. It's a good set of midfielders but if there's opportunity for a quality midfielder we need to make way with one of those 3. Bissouma and Bentancur for me our best 2 but it would be wise to get another while Bentancur recovers just to cover us if he has trouble. In other words the drop off without Bentancur is too big and we should look to upgrade in that position.

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

And was later corroborated by Matteo Moretto

 

[freeeki]

Also corroborates ITK from earlier I think.

This move seems to make sense for all parties. Let's hope it gets done quickly.

 

[felmani26]

And was later corroborated by Matteo Moretto

Good move for all parties concerned.

Fingers crossed this leads to us firming up our interest in Lavia.

 

[Now it's Spursonal]

Also corroborates ITK from earlier I think.

This move seems to make sense for all parties. Let's hope it gets done quickly.

Yeah Geoffrey Kondogbia just about to leave for Marseille aswell, and you have to imagine Simeone would love Hojberg.

Makes a lot of sense.

 

[robotsonic]

Would be a great move for him, so I do hope that Atleti actually have some cash. You'd think we'd be looking for at least £30m for him.

 

[jpascavitz]

Yeah Geoffrey Kondogbia just about to leave for Marseille aswell, and you have to imagine Simeone would love Hojberg.

Makes a lot of sense.

Does Athletico have the funds is my only question? No clue how Spanish clubs are doing post pandemic since all you hear about is Barca trying to get free signings and out of their mess hahah

Generally think he could generate a big fee. For some reason he's hated by our supporters, yet we're rooting to give Ndombele another chance

 

[DJS]

Think it would be a good idea to sell, however we would need to replace to ensure we have proper depth in central midfield having finally achieved this with current squad (including PEH).

Might not be so important if Bentancur wasn’t out, but as he is it will leave us a little short in numbers.

 

[austinfh]

Will be sad to see him go, I really love PEH. But it's the sort of sale we should be making more regularly, especially if we can make a decent profit.

 

[Ghost Hardware]

And was later corroborated by Matteo Moretto

If this can get wrapped up swiftly i would be very impressed.

 

[ukdy]

...it will leave us a little short in numbers.

Unless, that's the plan and we already have a replacement or cover lined up. Someone more mobile perhaps.