Pochetino Transfers – Erratic guesswork or long-term stroke of genius?

[jolsnogross]

It's plain enough that Pochettino has general preferences, but is willing to make exceptions: young; strong; willing to train like a mad thing. But I think there is one area where he does not compromise, which is the personality and attitude of the player and his willingness to take instruction and fit into the greater team.

I've rarely seen a manager who has a clearer plan and strategy for building a squad.

Every manager wants strong personalities & team building attitudes in their squad, the question is whether he can pick 'em. I think Pochettino has a reasonably good record of signings since his time in England. The odd stinker like Osvaldo is offset by the truly important ones like Alderweireld. Nobody can expect every signing to work out, so the key is to maintain a majority that do.

Hopefully Sissoko will be more Dier-like than Njie like. You'd have thought if he really wanted that particular 30 million midfielder he'd have just gone for him at a time when he didn't seem like a fall back option?

 

[glospur]

I still caveat that statement by "but only if Poch plays a footballer next to him"

For me football is all about balance (of skills and attributes) and blend.

I never said Wanyama was shit, just one dimensional, my gripe was that we have in Dier and Dembele already CM's who are decent defensively, risk averse, careful, slow tempo players, what I think we needed is someone in midfield to play some football, set some tempo, be able to take the ball under pressure and zip the ball forwards into the AM's and FB's, from an attacking point of via and help us retain the ball when we are leading games, starving the opposition rather than shelling back into the back four, ceding all control of the game and allowing them to build momentum.

I feared we were going to get 2 from Wanyama/Dier/Dembele - and still do - which I think is creatively and defensively too risk averse and lacking in progressive tempo for many games, will make us easier to stifle and won't really advance us as a team.

But if you put a Winks (or a Tolisso for example) next to Wanyama you get a better balance/blend of skills I believe and all of a sudden Wanyama's super dynamic pure hunter gathering becomes viable as it balances off someone like Winks dynamic metronomicity (my word).


Bentaleb. But also Pritchard, Veljkovic, Azzaoui and Edwards has offers from everywhere and not just the uber clubs, but smaller PL clubs offering him more playing time, it's why we saw him in pre-season after hardly playing any U21 football last year, the club have had to give him some assurances he'll be in and around the first team some of the time otherwise he wouldn't have signed a contract, but if he gets disenchanted he'll be off soon because there are big offers on the table for him already in terms of wages from elsewhere.

I think you're too myopically focused on what the 'footballer' next to Dier/Wanyama will offer going forward and neglecting to consider the effect it will have on our defensive prowess and our solidity through the middle. If you put, say, Winks next to Dier/Wanyama then, sure, it may help us move the ball forward more effectively and certainly quicker, but you're then asking Dier/Wanyama to do the covering job for 3 men, which is a massive ask and runs counter to the part of the philosophy that makes us push opponents wide where their percentage of chances turned into scores are much lower. Dier/Wanyama would have to cover any understandable, inexperienced mistakes made by Winks in terms of passing or positional errors as well as cover both full backs as they push up the pitch. A problem that will be made even worse against bus parkers who have some speed on the counter when our FB's are effectively asked to play as wingers.

I get that you want more 'football dynamism' because there's no doubt that on occasion we can look slow and cumbersome, but that is the exception rather than the rule. When our front 4 are on song we play as fluidly and as fluently as any team. I think you need to take a more holistic look at what the two defensive, or solid, CM's offer as part of the overriding way in which we want to set up both offensively and defensively rather than just focusing on what they offer going forward.

As for @Everlasting Seconds OP, I disagree with most of it and I think it touches on two different, and completely separate issues that shouldn't be in the same discussion, those being transfer activity and development.

I think it's unfair to criticise Poch for the fact that some recent transfers are not in the first XI, and that they are only squad options or sporadic first team members when that is exactly the reason why they were bought. The likes of Davies, Trippier, Wimmer, N'Jie, Janssen, Vorm and a few others weren't bought to immediately improve the first team, but to act as quality depth options. That's good transfer policy in my opinion, because most of them are quality rotation options who didn't cost a lot and most of them are young, meaning that although they might be squad options now they have every chance of developing into first team members in the future.

From 17 transfers. there are only 3 that are unambiguous failures: Fazio, Stambouli and Yedlin (although there are different reasons why this transfer may have happened and it may not have been Poch's choice). The jury is still out on N'Jie given that he was injured for almost all of last season and, if ITK are to be believed, Poch was actually hesitant to let him go but had to if he wanted to get GKN into the squad. Most of the rest are successes because they fulfill the exact role that they were bought to fulfill. There are as many resounding successes as there are failures with Dier, Alderweireld, Alli and Wimmer all looking like inspired purchases.

As for the development argument I completely disagree with the premise upon which your argument is based. Pochettino wasn't hired with the expectation that he would just develop academy players, but with the expectation that he would be able to get the best out of a very talented, albeit erratic squad. Quite frankly, I think it is an absolute nonsense to criticise his development ability and his ability to get the absolute best out of players. Rose, Alderweireld, Walker, Dier, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen, Alli and Kane have all played the best football of their careers under Pochettino and all of them are some of the best players of their position in the league. When you state that he only has the ability to 'develop certain types of players' if you mean players that have an excellent attitude and a willingness to listen to the manager and work hard on their game then sure, but there is a variety in the character, style, position and starting point in all of those players, so if you meant it any other way then you're categorically wrong.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the way that Pochettino has introduced Onomah to the team and I expect it will be similar with Winks this season and Edwards next season. You can't just expect them to come in at 18, 19 or 20 years of age and immediately improve the first team and become world beaters. Sure, Alli did, but that was because he took his opportunities when they were presented, something which Onomah has not yet been able to do. There's also the training aspect and, as none of us here are privy to training sessions, it's hard to judge who is impressing on the track and who isn't. Part of the development of young players is to balance the immediate needs to win while safeguarding the long term future of talented players and the squad. I think we've got an excellent balance in this respect. These players - Onomah, Winks, CCV and now Edwards - have been given first team squad places and the opportunity to impress in training to win their places in the team. It would be counter-productive to just hand them places if they are yet to deserve it. They know that there is an incentive for hard work and that will pay off significantly in their future career.

 

[davidmatzdorf]

Hopefully Sissoko will be more Dier-like than Njie like. You'd have thought if he really wanted that particular 30 million midfielder he'd have just gone for him at a time when he didn't seem like a fall back option?

I pointedly avoided mentioning specific names in my post, with the aim of focusing on approach and strategy, but OK.

Pochettino didn't want that particular £30m midfielder. He wanted that particular £16m midfielder. But when it became clear that what he wanted wasn't going to happen, he advised that it was better to get that particular £30m midfielder than to get an inferior/less-desired option, or to get no one at all. And this time Levy did what he was advised. I doubt either was that fussed about how it "seemed".

 

[rocklink]

There is no magic wand to improve a player... A teacher no matter how good he is , if the student doesn't want to grasp the material wholeheartedly , if the given student doesn't practice much and in the exam not willing to give his 100% , then that student is failing .. That doesn't mean the teacher is bad..

Same goes for pochetinno.. No coach in the world can actually improve Townsend ... No coach in the world can actually change or instill hard work mentality/passion , week in week out consistency into Adebayor... So I think the players Pochetinno has left behind are more or less to be blamed for themselves. We saw how good walker or rose become defensively... How good dele ali becomes... These are the fundamental proofs that if a player is willing to listen to the coach and work hard enough , he will certainly improve ...

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I feel like our squad has everything it needs both to have consistency in style, but also variation in style, depending on what the situation commands.

GK: three fast, agile goalkeepers who are good off their line.

Lloris, Vorm, Lopez

FB: both sides have a more explosive option and a more 'footballing' option.

Walker, Rose, Trippier, Davies

CB: three international centre backs and one exceptional young prospect.

Vertonghen, Wimmer, Alderweireld, Carter-Vickers

CM: two destroyers, two ball players and an all rounder for two positions.

Wanyama, Dier, Winks, Carroll, Dembele

AM: two playmakers, two goalscorers and two speedy dribblers for three positions.

Eriksen, Lamela, Alli, Son, Sissoko, Nkoudou

CF: two powerful, technically gifted forwards who are proven goalscorers for one position.

Kane, Janssen

Importantly, there's very few players in there who could not be expected to start in certain circumstances. Outfield, only CCV, Winks and Carroll are unlikely to ever start if a fully fit squad is available. Every other player there is likely to see regular game time depending on form, fitness and opposition. The long and short of that being that our squad is fucking strong as a result of a clearly identified transfer policy, and for the first time ever we are in a position to deal with pretty much all scenarios we encounter.

I do worry, as others have indicated, about impeding the progression of young players like Edwards and Onomah, but time is on their side and the senior players who fall by the wayside (for arguments sake, Carroll and Son) may well end up being replaced by these prospects IF they show in training that they deserve it. Onomah clearly already has Pochettino's trust so I feel we might see him ahead of Carroll before too long. The last match day squad suggests it may already have happened.

 

[Ionman34]

I think you're too myopically focused on what the 'footballer' next to Dier/Wanyama will offer going forward and neglecting to consider the effect it will have on our defensive prowess and our solidity through the middle. If you put, say, Winks next to Dier/Wanyama then, sure, it may help us move the ball forward more effectively and certainly quicker, but you're then asking Dier/Wanyama to do the covering job for 3 men, which is a massive ask and runs counter to the part of the philosophy that makes us push opponents wide where their percentage of chances turned into scores are much lower. Dier/Wanyama would have to cover any understandable, inexperienced mistakes made by Winks in terms of passing or positional errors as well as cover both full backs as they push up the pitch. A problem that will be made even worse against bus parkers who have some speed on the counter when our FB's are effectively asked to play as wingers.

I get that you want more 'football dynamism' because there's no doubt that on occasion we can look slow and cumbersome, but that is the exception rather than the rule. When our front 4 are on song we play as fluidly and as fluently as any team. I think you need to take a more holistic look at what the two defensive, or solid, CM's offer as part of the overriding way in which we want to set up both offensively and defensively rather than just focusing on what they offer going forward.

As for @Everlasting Seconds OP, I disagree with most of it and I think it touches on two different, and completely separate issues that shouldn't be in the same discussion, those being transfer activity and development.

I think it's unfair to criticise Poch for the fact that some recent transfers are not in the first XI, and that they are only squad options or sporadic first team members when that is exactly the reason why they were bought. The likes of Davies, Trippier, Wimmer, N'Jie, Janssen, Vorm and a few others weren't bought to immediately improve the first team, but to act as quality depth options. That's good transfer policy in my opinion, because most of them are quality rotation options who didn't cost a lot and most of them are young, meaning that although they might be squad options now they have every chance of developing into first team members in the future.

From 17 transfers. there are only 3 that are unambiguous failures: Fazio, Stambouli and Yedlin (although there are different reasons why this transfer may have happened and it may not have been Poch's choice). The jury is still out on N'Jie given that he was injured for almost all of last season and, if ITK are to be believed, Poch was actually hesitant to let him go but had to if he wanted to get GKN into the squad. Most of the rest are successes because they fulfill the exact role that they were bought to fulfill. There are as many resounding successes as there are failures with Dier, Alderweireld, Alli and Wimmer all looking like inspired purchases.

As for the development argument I completely disagree with the premise upon which your argument is based. Pochettino wasn't hired with the expectation that he would just develop academy players, but with the expectation that he would be able to get the best out of a very talented, albeit erratic squad. Quite frankly, I think it is an absolute nonsense to criticise his development ability and his ability to get the absolute best out of players. Rose, Alderweireld, Walker, Dier, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen, Alli and Kane have all played the best football of their careers under Pochettino and all of them are some of the best players of their position in the league. When you state that he only has the ability to 'develop certain types of players' if you mean players that have an excellent attitude and a willingness to listen to the manager and work hard on their game then sure, but there is a variety in the character, style, position and starting point in all of those players, so if you meant it any other way then you're categorically wrong.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the way that Pochettino has introduced Onomah to the team and I expect it will be similar with Winks this season and Edwards next season. You can't just expect them to come in at 18, 19 or 20 years of age and immediately improve the first team and become world beaters. Sure, Alli did, but that was because he took his opportunities when they were presented, something which Onomah has not yet been able to do. There's also the training aspect and, as none of us here are privy to training sessions, it's hard to judge who is impressing on the track and who isn't. Part of the development of young players is to balance the immediate needs to win while safeguarding the long term future of talented players and the squad. I think we've got an excellent balance in this respect. These players - Onomah, Winks, CCV and now Edwards - have been given first team squad places and the opportunity to impress in training to win their places in the team. It would be counter-productive to just hand them places if they are yet to deserve it. They know that there is an incentive for hard work and that will pay off significantly in their future career.

Excellent post.

The OP makes some good points, but I completely disagree with the assessment that he has failed with academy development. It seems that the "expectation" is that academy youth should be stepping up almost immediately and, if not, then they have somehow been failed. Why? We have a number who are on the cusp and seem to be in Poch's plans, but may just need some additional work.
We don't know yet whether the likes of Winks, Onomah, CCV et al will get more game time this season so it is premature to judge.
As said previously, I believe we will see a lot more of Winks this season as, after seeing previous displays, the boy has displayed a gravitas that bodes extremely well for his future prospects. He's made the bench, which shows he's certainly in the first team/squad plans, as has Onomah. Successful development isn't all about starts, it's about integration. The fact that it is gradual I think speaks more about Poch's player care than throwing them into the deep end to see if they sink or swim. Additionally, you have to feel that a spell on the bench, with occasional tasters of first team action, can be an incitement for these players, taking off pressure whilst building a confidence and desire to participate and impress. At least that was how I felt as a nipper when included in the first team squad of my first "big" club. I had 5-6 weeks on the bench, was itching to get on and, when given my first real decent number of minutes, absolutely tore it up.

My personal belief is Poch's is managing these prospects perfectly, from a psychological point of view, and is instilling the mindset to excel.

 

[homer hotspur]

I posted this on another thread, this one may be more appropriate.

Did anyone understand our interest in Morgan Schneidelin? Apparently, it was confirmed by Man Utd as being real. I know it’s all irrelevant now but signing him would have been even more mystifying than the Sissoko deal. At least with him, you can sort of see where he may play an AM role, but Schneidelin doesn't have any real pace and would have just been another Dier/ Wanyama option. Just seemed very odd. They also have the same initials, putting me to the trouble of spelling their names in full!

If this deal had gone ahead, would that have been our 'big signing' ? How would that have fitted in with our pursuit of Zaha and, ultimately, Sissoko? How did it fit in with Poch's wish for someone' like' Mane? Is that who Sissoko is, or is he instead of Schneidelin? Something doesn't quite add up to me.

 

[Ossie85]

I guess people will always find a way to look at it just for the sake of complaining about something.

 

[Tucker]

Poco seems to be doing good on the whole with most of his transfers. His real talent Has been in man management and training, and getting us to work together as a unit.

The transfers, well, as others have said, he seems to have got his own way with them most of the time, when this has happened they have done ok. The likes of Fazio, and Stambouli were probably 3rd choice players signed because we couldn't get our prime targets. Mussachio and Schneiderlin if I remember correctly? They flopped badly, and the next year we didn't sign anyone that Poch didn't want....shows the club learnt something doesn't it?

N'Jie was unfortunate with his Injury last season, if I'm honest though, he has to go down as a flop because he's been shipped out without a chance to prove himself. If we really thought he was good enough we'd have kept him.

Son has also been unfortunate with injuries, but I'm also worried about rumours that he could have been let go this summer as well. All seems a little bit wheeler dealerish. (Cue Harry Redknapp Sky swearfest)

At the end of the day it's not about "trusting" Poch with the transfers, we can all have a good moan on here and say what we like when Spurs sign a player, it will make fuck all difference to the team, or what Poch is going to do with it.

Do I trust him to coach the players he signs?

That's a definite yes. That's the important question, and if we were all moaning about not feeling he was the right guy to take us forward, then we'd need to worry. I don't think we do need to worry at all right now.

There's definite room for improvement though, and I will be watching eagerly this season to see if we fade away again like we have done in previous seasons under Poch, that's literally my only concern about his coaching. Can we last the season. Everything else is fucking great.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think you're too myopically focused on what the 'footballer' next to Dier/Wanyama will offer going forward and neglecting to consider the effect it will have on our defensive prowess and our solidity through the middle. If you put, say, Winks next to Dier/Wanyama then, sure, it may help us move the ball forward more effectively and certainly quicker, but you're then asking Dier/Wanyama to do the covering job for 3 men, which is a massive ask and runs counter to the part of the philosophy that makes us push opponents wide where their percentage of chances turned into scores are much lower. Dier/Wanyama would have to cover any understandable, inexperienced mistakes made by Winks in terms of passing or positional errors as well as cover both full backs as they push up the pitch. A problem that will be made even worse against bus parkers who have some speed on the counter when our FB's are effectively asked to play as wingers.

I get that you want more 'football dynamism' because there's no doubt that on occasion we can look slow and cumbersome, but that is the exception rather than the rule. When our front 4 are on song we play as fluidly and as fluently as any team. I think you need to take a more holistic look at what the two defensive, or solid, CM's offer as part of the overriding way in which we want to set up both offensively and defensively rather than just focusing on what they offer going forward.

No, I think the need for the utter defensive risk aversion and lack of fluidity that we've seen in the last three games is the exception rather than the rule. You talk about our front four being as fluid and fluent as any team, but they haven't looked like that in the first three games and that's because there is no quick progressive supply to them, by the time they are getting the ball they are knee deep in defensive treacle.

You talk about our front four, when on form as being as fluid as any team, they certainly haven't looked that this season, and it's no coincidence.

And I think you are exaggerating the effect of putting a "footballing CM next to Wanyama would have on the dynamics of our defending. Firstly I'm not suggesting it for every game. But for many games, as we have seen in the first three, playing Dier and Wanyama has stifled our forward play and not prevented the opposition from getting into threatening positions (Liverpool e.g.) Liverpool and Everton (for 45 minutes) caused us defensive problems because we didn't have midfielders comfortable taking the ball under the opposition press. Having two DM's isn't always/often the best defensive solution.

Havng a CM who shows for the ball under pressure and moves it quickly and more incisively is a great defensive attribute, not just an attacking one. We lost more points from winning positions than any other team and IMO part of the reason is that Dier stopped wanting the ball and shrank back into the back four too often, as a result we ceded possession and allowed the opponent momentum, instead of starving them of the ball, which is another viable way to protect a lead, and maybe even add to it with a clever break ball.

In Wanyama, what we have bought is a (slightly more limited) Kante type, who's dynamism actually will do the hunting job of one and half normal DM's, and IMO this would allow us to play a more progressive footballer next to him, in fact I think we will throttle ourselves if we don't.

The other point to make is that the more "footballing" partners I'm suggesting aren't chocolate teapots either, they are all capable of working off the ball too and providing some defensive qualities, they have all been coached by Pochettino and should be aware of their responsibilities etc, it's not like I'm suggesting pairing Wanyama with Nacer fucking Chadli in a CM2.

And we also had (when I did the piece midway through last season) the best defensive front four by far, so if Poch can them working properly again, this should also mitigate any defensive compromise in most games.

As for @Everlasting Seconds OP, I disagree with most of it and I think it touches on two different, and completely separate issues that shouldn't be in the same discussion, those being transfer activity and development.

I think it's unfair to criticise Poch for the fact that some recent transfers are not in the first XI, and that they are only squad options or sporadic first team members when that is exactly the reason why they were bought. The likes of Davies, Trippier, Wimmer, N'Jie, Janssen, Vorm and a few others weren't bought to immediately improve the first team, but to act as quality depth options. That's good transfer policy in my opinion, because most of them are quality rotation options who didn't cost a lot and most of them are young, meaning that although they might be squad options now they have every chance of developing into first team members in the future.

From 17 transfers. there are only 3 that are unambiguous failures: Fazio, Stambouli and Yedlin (although there are different reasons why this transfer may have happened and it may not have been Poch's choice). The jury is still out on N'Jie given that he was injured for almost all of last season and, if ITK are to be believed, Poch was actually hesitant to let him go but had to if he wanted to get GKN into the squad. Most of the rest are successes because they fulfill the exact role that they were bought to fulfill. There are as many resounding successes as there are failures with Dier, Alderweireld, Alli and Wimmer all looking like inspired purchases.

As for the development argument I completely disagree with the premise upon which your argument is based. Pochettino wasn't hired with the expectation that he would just develop academy players, but with the expectation that he would be able to get the best out of a very talented, albeit erratic squad. Quite frankly, I think it is an absolute nonsense to criticise his development ability and his ability to get the absolute best out of players. Rose, Alderweireld, Walker, Dier, Dembele, Lamela, Eriksen, Alli and Kane have all played the best football of their careers under Pochettino and all of them are some of the best players of their position in the league. When you state that he only has the ability to 'develop certain types of players' if you mean players that have an excellent attitude and a willingness to listen to the manager and work hard on their game then sure, but there is a variety in the character, style, position and starting point in all of those players, so if you meant it any other way then you're categorically wrong.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the way that Pochettino has introduced Onomah to the team and I expect it will be similar with Winks this season and Edwards next season. You can't just expect them to come in at 18, 19 or 20 years of age and immediately improve the first team and become world beaters. Sure, Alli did, but that was because he took his opportunities when they were presented, something which Onomah has not yet been able to do. There's also the training aspect and, as none of us here are privy to training sessions, it's hard to judge who is impressing on the track and who isn't. Part of the development of young players is to balance the immediate needs to win while safeguarding the long term future of talented players and the squad. I think we've got an excellent balance in this respect. These players - Onomah, Winks, CCV and now Edwards - have been given first team squad places and the opportunity to impress in training to win their places in the team. It would be counter-productive to just hand them places if they are yet to deserve it. They know that there is an incentive for hard work and that will pay off significantly in their future career.

The development/purchase debate isn't black and white, it's not just about abject failure or resounding success. Few purchases or development players will be either. And Levy clearly did reference Pochettino's reputation for integrating (or "getting the best from") academy players when appointed.

Alli doing OK wasn't just because "he took his opportunities" with us, it's because he'd already had 180 "opportunities" elsewhere.

We've spent close to 70m on those "squad" options (inc Fazio, Stambouli, Yedlin) and now add 10m for Nkoudou. Not a single one of those is even close to being a first choice option.

There is a very valid argument to say that some of those remits could easily and have been just as competently filled by players fro our own academy, it's riducluous to suggest that Njie with 1500 raw and erratic minutes in Ligue1, at 12m, offered a surer gamble than someone like Oduwa or Pritchard could have shared for no fee and about half the wages at most. There is absolutely no way Veljkovic could have possibly been any worse that Fazio (or Chriches before him) - there's another 20m plus wages there we could have saved with very little risk of calamity, but the possibility of actually producing a decent squad pro, who like Townsend, Mason, Pricthard etc could have still made the club good money (instead of losing it) if he didn't turn out to be a world beater, like many of our purchases don't.

The point is academy players don't have to be wonderful to be as viable than the likes of Yedlin, Njie, Fazio, Tripper, Wimmer, they just have to do "OK" like most of them do.

Now not all of the situations are applicable to this argument, I accept that (Janssen being clearly more than simple "squadie" for example and he was a good, value, logical signing), but the handling of Veljkovic, Bentaleb, Pricthard, KWP and to a degree Onomah (not in terms of minutes but positionally) hasn't always been ideal.

And part of the problem is Pochettino's absolute refusal to countenance any deviation in tactical structure, which could address some of the afore mentioned issues with the CM, but also help wit the integration/purchase conflict.

 

[TottenhamMattSpur]

I think we need a sub forum for members to bitch and whine about Sissoko.

I think I might pledge undying allegiance to Sissoko in the same way a large chunk is SC did to Soldado.


Let's do it - #cultofsissoko