Poll: Time for Poch or Time up for Poch? How Much More Time Should He Get?

[SpurSince57]

Went for Christmas next season, barring a relegation battle. Won't be expecting us to be challenging for the top four any time soon, but another year is more than enough time for his team to start showing real signs of improvement. If not, back to the drawing board.

And if we're in a relegation battle this Christmas?

 

[StartingPrice]

Voted end of next season but only because that was the longest option.

Poll: Time for Poch or Time up for Poch? How Much More Time Should He Get?

 

[Spurger King]

And if we're in a relegation battle this Christmas?

Good question. If he loses the dressing room (which given his comments about "making them suffer" seems probable) he'll go regardless.

Plenty of variables to consider. We could be in a relegation battle despite clear signs of improvement and some bad luck. We could also look like we're sinking like a rock (ala Ramos), in which case it would be a brave move to show faith in someone who has provided no evidence that he has the strength of character for such a challenge.

Personally I suspect he'll be sacked by February, but hope he proves me wrong and does enough to buy himself enough time to turn things around.

 

[SpurSince57]

Poll: Time for Poch or Time up for Poch? How Much More Time Should He Get?

Quite a few 'barring relegation battle' provisos there. I wonder if those who posted them now realise we could be sliding into one.

 

[Mr Pink]

Quite a few 'barring relegation battle' provisos there. I wonder if those who posted them now realise we could be sliding into one.

The festive period is looking quite tricky. Away to Swansea, double header with Chelsea...United at home as well.

I think we have Burnley, Palace and Leicester in there to.

Hull and Everton next, if we were to lose those two, the festive period would be looking very daunting I'd concede. Not just from the point of view of our position and the upcoming games, but our confidence would be on the floor.

As you know I'm all for giving him plenty of time but I do agree with you that it could be easier to slide into a relegation battle in the coming weeks than many think.

Obviously I hope this isn't the case and we show signs of improvement that buys him time.

 

[StartingPrice]

if it all goes tits up, I'm not confident in Levy's ability to pick a decent manager to replace him

That's the crux of the issue for me. Whatever good Levy does, it will just continue to be undone if he can't recruit successfully a management level. The signs aren't particularly encouraging ATM, if this one fails too, I would rather someone else was doing the choosing.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And if we're on 20 points on 2 January, would you consider that to be a relegation fight?

People are looking at our 14 points and seeing us level with Everton and Liverpool and saying, "Hey, what's the problem?", blithely ignoring the fact that six of those points result from our smash-and-grabs against West Ham and Villa, and were hardly deserved. If we were on eight points, would those people be quite so sanguine? Eight would, after all, be a much more accurate reflection of our performances. It's sobering to consider that, while a point against the Spammers would have flattered us (never mind the three we actually nicked) our show there was one of our better ones. It's also being forgotten that Liverpool's one decent performance this season saw them take us apart. Our being equal on points may be entirely meaningless.

Sorry, but on our current form it looks all too horribly likely that we could be involved in a relegation fight come Christmas. We're barely any better off points-wise than we were at this stage in 1976, and the football is actually worse than it was under Ramos six years ago. Pochettino needs to get a grip very soon.

This is what happens when you sack managers for not entertaining enough I guess. A year ago we may not have been entertaining those sat on the SkyTV couch, but we were were very secure despite all the upheaval and losing every quality player we'd had

Not sure your appraisal of the current situation is entirely fair. Did West Brom and Newcastle not smash and grab the points from us ? And although we were tactically a bit all over the place we didn't exactly do a smash and grab on Villa, we had the better chances and the majority of the ball.

 

[StartingPrice]

And would you describe the spanking they administered to us as a smash-and-grab too? Really, this drawing of crumbs of very cold comfort from the fact that other members of the Top Six Club have also started badly is pretty desperate. The fact that Bodgers is struggling in no way excuses or compensates for the garbage we've had foisted on us. (And what is this 'new squad'? It's little changed from last season's, and if Pochettino is bemoaning the lack of leaders and fighters, he's the one who sanctioned the jettisoning of Dawson and Sandro.)

Quite apart from that, I haven't passed any judgement on our new incumbent, at least not in the post to which you responded. I was replying to a post that hip-hip-hoorayed the fact that 67% of those who took part in the poll backed Pochettino provided we weren't in a relegation battle, and claimed that this was a highly unlikely scenario. I found this worryingly complacent. And is that 67% still going to be sticking with Pochettino if we do find ourselves down among the dead men?

If we maintain our current 1.27 PPG we'll end the year on 25-26 points. Frankly, nothing I've seen so far gives me any hope that we'll do better than this. If we don't achieve even that paltry target, and reach the New Year on 20-21 points—which is by no means out of the question, given the way we've been playing—then we'll be in very serious trouble. We were on 20 at mid-point in 1976-77, when we were relegated, and also in 2008-09, when things were still looking very sticky after Harry took over. Quite simply, having brought us to this pass, will Pochettino be able to turn things around? Will the 67% change their mind? Will Levy hit the panic button and call in another fireman?

Liverpool were better than us at the Lane, and deserved to win. It should be added, however, that their second goal was yet another ridiculous penalty against us at an incredibly vital time in the game, and virtually killed the game, while their third was a great individual goal due to feeble play and no attempt to win the ball back accompanied by and compliant defending. At the same time, we were denied a virtually nailed-on penalty. So, we would have been lucky to have got anything from it, but I wouldn't consider it a spanking like we got last season. Also, we biatch-slapped QPR; QPR totally outplayed Liverpool; there are no straight form lines in football - it's not horse racing.

I'm not drawing any crumbs of cold comfort. I'm analysing the situation. My analysis may well be correct, but that will offer me no comfort if we end up in a relegation battle, especially if the upshot if another managerial casualty - there may be some members of this forum for whom having an opinion vindicated is more important than how well the team is doing, I am not one of them. I am speculating, nothing more. If, however, I am correct in speculating that there are other factors involved than just Pochettino being crap, it does leave more scope for the possibility that things could turn around. I believe it is Punky who has quite rightly observed that a few games ago Newcastle fans were frantic at the coming apocalypse, now they are the form team.

I have something specific in mind when I say a new squad. It is this: aside from a few players (Walker, out injured all of Pochettino's reign, Lennon, clearly surplus to requirements, Naughton likely to be sold, Rose, converted winger under thread, Kaboul, who seems to have turned to pish, Adebayor who currently epitomises everything the fans are complaining about, who else) we have few genuinely senior players, players who have been with the club for 5 or more years and are in their mature years as players; our closest thing to the real deal are Lloris and Vertonghen, both of whom, along with Dembélé, are only into their third season, hardly candidates for a testimonial; seven players who signed last summer and never really settled in; and another six (seven when Yedlin arrives) who joined this summer, along with young players from the youth set-up who, by definition, are hardly veterans. Compare that with the squad Ferguson had when he won the title for the last time, or the one he had in 2000. it is a new squad. I made the definition, based on my reading.

Everyone but you wanted Dawson gone (much as I personally always appreciated his contribution and effort). Sandro was a cult hero with injury problems who didn't fit Pochettino's tactics and seemed more of an entertainer/distraction at the end. Besides, everyone on here is blaming Levyinho/Baldinho for transfer dealings - how strange that you should buck the trend and blame Poch

I never said you had judged him - and I was never one of his fan-boys. I didn't have a preferred candidate really, this time around, but I did consider him to be one of several viable but not standout candidates. Thirty percent of the electorate (correct at going to print) think he should be given until the end of next season to shape his own team even with a relegation fight (or so the wording would imply - which cretin constructed the poll?).

I agree with you that it is worryingly complacent to not envisage that we could get dragged into a relegation fight. Right now I believe it could go either way. I do think that things will improve - at what rate I cannot say. For that reason, PPG of 25/26 (wouldn't that give 50/52?) at Christmas wouldn't be the rate I would imagine we wold end at - but I could be wrong, and as I said, it is worrying.
TBH, I specifically didn't frame the poll in terms of what Baldy would do, but in terms of what folk personally believe should be the case (as you will see if you check the OP). But I can understand you bringing it up, as there is form there, isn't there.

 

[fuzzylogic]

Rome wasn't built in a day, he needs to be able to bring his players in to suit his system. But he also needs to be strong enough to get the deadwood out and the players that he does not rate. We can't go on sacking managers like we have been doing in recent years. We need stability at the club

 

[Baan]

If we don't pick up points and are close to the relegation zone come Christmas, then I see no other option. Tim came in and was getting points, if poch can't do the same with the same players and a few more, what does that tell you ?

Make sense.
But people who love tottenham doesn't really need the point we will have near future.
I would love to see better team performance than better points, if we're not struggle for relegation.
Tim did great job, but we must know the reason why we sacked Tim.
Tottenham future.

 

[Baan]

Rome wasn't built in a day, he needs to be able to bring his players in to suit his system. But he also needs to be strong enough to get the deadwood out and the players that he does not rate. We can't go on sacking managers like we have been doing in recent years. We need stability at the club

You're very right.
Also, Pochi need to do his job done well with the player

It was always gonna get worse before it got better and it probably still will.

I've gathered up my supplies and I'm sitting in for the long haul.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not enjoying our current situation but I have faith that Pochettino knows what he's doing and if we need to clear out the majority of our current squad to get ourselves back to where we need to be then so be it.

Yes, so be it.
Exactly what I want to say.
Thanks.

 

[Dan Yeats]

Barring relegation battles, at least 3 years. Preferably 5.

Time for some continuity Tottenham.

 

[Baan]

Here's Korean Tottenham fan vote.

End of next season 136 vote, 49.1%
End of next season barring relegation fight 46 vote, 16.4%
Christmas next season barring relegation fight 39 vote, 13.9%
End of season 36 vote, 12.9%
See how he does in January window - so about March 2015 10 vote, 3.5%
Christmas 3 vote, 2.1%
Get him out now 3 vote, 2.1%
After Chelsea game if things continue to decline 2 vote, 0.7%

It's from Korea tottenham fansite.

Below is the replies.

- 2 year at least.

- We should give more time than AVB

- We need the possibility to rise up again, result near at hand.

- Is there any 5 year vote?

- There's no one who can do better than Pochi in our situation

- Rebuilding is not easy to do, so at least 2 year, but if he does almost same as AVB then...

- There's no good manager in the market.

- 3 year at least, Team can not change just by the great manager in a couple of month.
There's Fabregas, Costa, so Chelsea could changed really quick.
If we have them, we can do the same.

- What are you expecting during changing the manager too often?

- 2 season at least. but I'm not happy to see the game at the moment.

- If we don't fight in relegation zone, we should give him 10 years.
Long term contract isn't really good but we know what Ferguson faced when he started to manage Manchester.

- I have no idea why we're voting this.
At least 2 year

- I'm seeing we're getting better, so 2~3 season at least.
Klobb and Simeone didn't really well at their first season.

- Why people saying sack him someday?
He need time definately, Let him make his own team next season and expect results

- We can't wait too long like AVB, We need the manager who has leadership.
I don't think Pochi has it.
But if he can have the player he want during January market, then I can wait.

- It's not the problem of manager, it's Levys

- Hope the situation that happened to Moyes can't happen to Pochi.
He had long contrat and got sacked during the season.
I thought WTF? This is not the happening that I expect to Pochi.

- I voted this season
IMO, there's no such a this kind of vote if we hav e positive points.
Rome wasn't build in a day.
We see Rogers, so we know it takes time to rebuild the empire.
No more sack, it doesn't looks good.

- We should shoot the board.
The player we bought last summer was bullshit.

- Who's saying sack him now?

- It's waste our time to do the same thing again and again with current players.
I don't care it's summer or winter transfer market but we need to let Pochi to buy a player he want.

- Next season, but this boxing days won't be easy.

- Let's see this season results...

 

[spurs-r-us]

If we're in a relegation battle with the players that we have, then while a change of manager may steer us to safety - it still won't stop it happening again.

We need to spend the season treading water, and then sell the bottle jobs (anyone not Lloris, Vertonghen, Walker, Chadli, Mason, Kane and Eriksen) for whatever we can get.

Honestly, what a nightmare this is.

 

[sweetness]

And if we're in a relegation battle this Christmas?

Style over substance! Need to go find those anti-anxiety pills.

 

[sweetness]

Rome wasn't built in a day, he needs to be able to bring his players in to suit his system. But he also needs to be strong enough to get the deadwood out and the players that he does not rate. We can't go on sacking managers like we have been doing in recent years. We need stability at the club

Agree on stability 100 percent. We'll probably take a hit results-wise this season, but I'm happy with that as long as things get better next year. Have a sneaky (wishful?) suspicion that Spurs will do well in the 2nd half of the season. Unlike most around here, I see signs of improving team shape, passing tempo, and off-the-ball movement. IMO these will become more tangible in a few months.

 

[Barry Mead]

The difference is quite obvious. If he sticks with Pochettino he's accepting that other things are also responsible for our current demise. In other words if we make some changes to the playing staff and keep Pochettino, crucially, his judgement should have more sway, or what's the point?

Getting rid of Pochettino and bringing in someone else, as of now, is putting it all on the manager's door step - which isn't right after just three months no matter how you spin it. Especially when you consider Liverpool, Everton and Arsenal are struggling to - all managers who arn't in their first season either.

To dismiss him this early would be a joke and another damning indictment that we're demanding instant success and ignoring the problem areas that undermine the very managers we employ.

There will always be other things responsible for our current demise, but it's the manager who has most control over many of those things

Tactics
Selection
Motivation
Fitness
Transfer decisions in/out
Decisions on Captaincy

Now you can argue transfer decisions in and out Levy has a strong involvement in, you can argue that none of the players in or out were at Poch's behest. Personally I would be amazed if a new manager had so little say in transfer dealings and frankly if they did I would argue that you would have to question their strength and suitability as a manager to agree to that. I tend to think Poch was happy with the departures, pretty happy with the players coming in and only disappointed he couldn't get Schneiderlin and Musacchio ahead of Fazio

As for all the other above areas Levy has no involvement or again if he does it suggests a weakness in someone prepared to accept that

After a troubled season we finished sixth-a disappointing position last season and one practically everyone felt given the depth of squad represented an under performance. Now we are saying that the squad is the problem rather than the manager and yet we are going backward on last season and you have to ask what has changed.

Simply Pochettino has changed, but his decisions, tactics, selection, motivation and player fitness have not worked. He arrived at the end of May, so has been here nearly 6 months and we have played competitive games for four months and if anything we appear to be going backwards rather than forward

So do we actually change a whole team around because a new manager can't get them performing better when all the evidence would suggest they are capable of better?

That's a big risk imo especially when you are backing a manager who supposedly made decisions to sell the likes of Dawson, Sandro and Siggy then complained about lack of character in the squad, one who has added new players without giving them much of an opportunity whilst complaining that the team are not giving him enough, who complains about a weak defence whilst leaving his best defender on the bench, who complains about the narrowness of the pitch whilst playing inverted wingers ahead of natural wingers, whilst making a decision on captaincy on a player who has hardly shown he deserves a place in the starting 11 in the last couple of years

I don't really care much about what other teams managers are doing, whatever way you spin it the first six months under Pochettino have been very poor and so much of what he has done has been a negative rather than a positive. You can blame the players but a manager should inspire and motivate, but far too many decisions have done the opposite. There's no doubt we can improve in a few areas, although that's arguably the same in every team, but for me making wholesale changes in a squad because the manager is incapable of getting better from them rather than replacing with one who can do it with minimal changes would be the more damning indictment

 

[StartingPrice]

Why is he, as you say charged with changing a mentality, what mentality?

We have a reputation of being weak mentally, of being bottle-jobs, of throwing away leads and commanding positions when the odds should be against it, of being complacent, of being big-time-Charlies - to use Ol' Jonesy's catchphrase from Dad's Army: The cold steel, Captain Edwards...we just do not like it up us!

I thought this was one thing all SCers actually agreed on It is what I believe boyhood Spurs fan Roy Keane means when he says Spurs always let you down. Ditto with Gary Neville when he says Spurs are mentally weak. Pochettino has specifically referred to it a few times, now. It is why relegation battlers always fancy getting something off us, because they know they can get in and about us.

The story I tell, and think I have recently elsewhere on the forum (maybe even this thread) is in 1993/94 (I think) - when Swindon had just been promoted. They failed to win in something like their first 18 games. They arrived at the Lane with everyone expecting them to lose - everyone in the football World. I told this kid we would lose - and when it happened I had to try and explain to him how I knew that. Timers older than me (if there be such a thing) will tell of it happening at the start of the seventies and even in the sixties. We are watching it happen now. How can we explain that? I used to scoff at those who said it was something that had got into the club's DNA. Now when folk say it is like a cancerous growth within the club, I am starting to take notice.With that Brighton game, it was like it wouldn't have mattered what team we had, what individual players, what manager/head coach, what chairman, nor would it have mattered if we were on a good run or a bad run. There was just something very THFC about it.

I can't explain it any more than you can (and you don't seem to believe it). Maybe as new players arrive they mix with players who have mixed with ones long gone, in a line stretching right back to the early sixties - and they pass some kind of attitude about having made it, rather than having to fight like Jeebus to make it at a club aiming to make it at the top. I don't know.

I do know that Pochettino has alluded to it several times, and if Levy hasn't spotted how many times we bottle it or throw away stupid games, he bloody well should have. So, on that basis, I believe Pochettino knows he has to fix the mentality, and most likely knew that was part of the remit when he took the job. I could, of course, be wrong

 

[Barry Mead]

We have a reputation of being weak mentally, of being bottle-jobs, of throwing away leads and commanding positions when the odds should be against it, of being complacent, of being big-time-Charlies - to use Ol' Jonesy's catchphrase from Dad's Army: The cold steel, Captain Edwards...we just do not like it up us!

I thought this was one thing all SCers actually agreed on It is what I believe boyhood Spurs fan Roy Keane means when he says Spurs always let you down. Ditto with Gary Neville when he says Spurs are mentally weak. Pochettino has specifically referred to it a few times, now. It is why relegation battlers always fancy getting something off us, because they know they can get in and about us.

The story I tell, and think I have recently elsewhere on the forum (maybe even this thread) is in 1993/94 (I think) - when Swindon had just been promoted. They failed to win in something like their first 18 games. They arrived at the Lane with everyone expecting them to lose - everyone in the football World. I told this kid we would lose - and when it happened I had to try and explain to him how I knew that. Timers older than me (if there be such a thing) will tell of it happening at the start of the seventies and even in the sixties. We are watching it happen now. How can we explain that? I used to scoff at those who said it was something that had got into the club's DNA. Now when folk say it is like a cancerous growth within the club, I am starting to take notice.With that Brighton game, it was like it wouldn't have mattered what team we had, what individual players, what manager/head coach, what chairman, nor would it have mattered if we were on a good run or a bad run. There was just something very THFC about it.

I can't explain it any more than you can (and you don't seem to believe it). Maybe as new players arrive they mix with players who have mixed with ones long gone, in a line stretching right back to the early sixties - and they pass some kind of attitude about having made it, rather than having to fight like Jeebus to make it at a club aiming to make it at the top. I don't know.

I do know that Pochettino has alluded to it several times, and if Levy hasn't spotted how many times we bottle it or throw away stupid games, he bloody well should have. So, on that basis, I believe Pochettino knows he has to fix the mentality, and most likely knew that was part of the remit when he took the job. I could, of course, be wrong

Over the last 9 years we have pretty much finished fourth or fifth. everyone generally accepts that allowing the financial strength of City and Chavs and the comparative financial strengths and historical strength of United and to a lesser degree scum we have done well to achieve that and yet if we are to believe the myth we have done all this despite being mentally weak. Quite amazing really and it makes you wonder how much extra quality we have had than City, United, Chavs and Scum that our lack of mental strength has meant they have finished above us, also makes you wonder about all those teams below us and if we are lacking mental strength how they stack up

 

[prawnsandwich]

The manager has most control over many of these things
Tactics Selection Motivation Fitness Transfer decisions in/out Decisions on Captaincy
Whatever way you spin it the first six months under Pochettino have been very poor. You can blame the players but a manager should inspire and motivate, but far too many decisions have done the opposite. There's no doubt we can improve in a few areas, although that's arguably the same in every team, but for me making wholesale changes in a squad because the manager is incapable of getting better from them rather than replacing with one who can do it with minimal changes would be the more damning indictment

Great post.