Ratings vs Everton

[ShelfSide18]

Before i answer some of these points i have a question:

Why do you think that you know what goes on at every training ground and how every team is coached, trained, prepared or whatever you want to call it?

Allow me to jump in here, I have a reasonable idea of what tends to go on (to a certain extent) at top football clubs in terms of coaching methods, training methodologies, attention to details etc and yes I have had experience of going into a professional setting and seeing top level coaches work - and BCs far nearer the money than most on here would like to believe.

At some levels the attention to detail, the minutae in which players are coached and the expectations of what they are meant to do on the field is astounding sometimes.

Of course some coaches are more detailed than others, some prefer to rely on the individual moments of players more than others and there is always a trade off that needs to be made, but fuck me I have been amazed at the level of detail some coaches will go into as part of their methodology.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You're being disingenuous here. You know perfectly well that 'over-coached' is not cured by 'less coaching'. The concept of a team that has been 'over-coached' is about a coach/manager who has set up a system that is too rigid and denies the players the flexibility to respond to match situations in a spontaneous manner, because the coach is more concerned with players following instructions than he is with players addressing what is actually happening in the split-second context of a football match.

The solution for that is (as you know, but were more than willing to ignore in order to make a spurious, argumentative point) not 'less coaching', it is 'better coaching'.

I don't really have a problem with the Redknapp style of 'under-coaching', because the man has about 40 years of experience and has developed a good sense for when to step back and when to step in. He usually knows what requires specific instructions and what requires him to get the fuck out of his players' hair and let them do what they're paid to do.

AVB and Sherwood do not have those decades of understanding to fall back upon. AVB, the evidence suggests, responds by being over-prescriptive and the visible result was a number of very good footballers looking constipated and hesitant. Bale didn't look constipated and hesitant last season, but Bale is Bale. We removed Bale and the evident result was a stymied and stifled team of very good footballers.

Sherwood is trying a tack closer to Redknapp's approach, but he lacks the seasoned wisdom to apply it reliably. He's got to learn that on the job. He has a great advantage, which is that he doesn't have any bad footballers in his squad (not a single one - and don't start, FFS). He is trying to loosen the tactical strait-jacket of prescriptive roles and behaviours on the pitch, without creating a chaotic, disorganised style. So far, sometimes it has worked and sometimes it has failed.

The degree to which his loosening of the tactical approach succeeds will dictate whether he keeps his job this Summer. In the meantime, I suggest that you observe the overall flow of play, instead of doing what you do, which is to obsess about individual players you detest and scrape around, in a grossly biased manner, for scraps of evidence that AVB's system was going to produce the kind of entertaining, free-flowing football that we have seen, but only in brief flashes and scarcely at all on Sunday, since he was sacked.

It isn't about one way being good and the other way being bad. It's about understanding clearly what you are seeing. You don't. Because your bigotry about individuals has the effect of blinding you. Almost all the time.

I think the sad thing is, you are guilty of tarring me with the same thing you accuse me of tarring my "scapegoats" with. I'm not even sure why you felt the need to add the whole "obsessing about individuals" bollocks, when the main thrust of my posts and this conversation were complaining about the lack of coached application, a lack of players being taught what to do and when to do it (to bring it to its basic form) and was nothing specifically to do with individuals. But I'm sure that little diatribe got you a couple of extra "winners".

What we as fans enjoy to watch is very subjective. I personally enjoy a team that shows evidence of work spent on the training ground - what you call over prescriptive - incorrectly - in my opinion, I call an absolute fundamental basic necessity. And as I said, and evidenced in subsequent posts, this whole AVB was over complicating in a Lobanovsky type bamboozling game play way is nonsense.

What he was trying to do was no more complex than most decent teams do. Control the football, condense the pitch out of possession, work coherently. You can validly call it risk averse. I have no problem with that as a start point as an argument, or his efficacy at delivering his philosophy, but over prescriptive, no, not in my opinion.

But we would then have to talk about individuals as well, and that is verboten of course.

I wasn't being entirely disingenuous, just flippant. I don't buy the Redknapp methodology one bit. I don't believe any decent club - (SAF's) ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, ManC to name the four most successful UK clubs (but add to that the clubs leading the Spanish, german, Italian leagues over the years) buy into that - non philosophy - either.

I don't even think Redknapp totally bought into it, he just didn't have the ability to coach anything else on a regular basis. Which is why we are the only decent club he's managed and why he's now managing in the Championship, despite his 40 years experience.

 

[Legend10]

Allow me to jump in here, I have a reasonable idea of what tends to go on (to a certain extent) at top football clubs in terms of coaching methods, training methodologies, attention to details etc and yes I have had experience of going into a professional setting and seeing top level coaches work - and BCs far nearer the money than most on here would like to believe.

At some levels the attention to detail, the minutae in which players are coached and the expectations of what they are meant to do on the field is astounding sometimes.

Of course some coaches are more detailed than others, some prefer to rely on the individual moments of players more than others and there is always a trade off that needs to be made, but fuck me I have been amazed at the level of detail some coaches will go into as part of their methodology.

I have that experience as well, quite a bit of it, but that isn't what i was asking. I was asking BC why he thinks he knows what goes on at every training ground and how every club is coached, trained, prepared or whatever he wants to call it.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Fantastic post David. This perfectly encapsulates what has and is happening currently with the coaching and especially Tim.

You are not exactly impartial when it comes to AVB (the fraud) and Tim Sherwood are you JJ ?

Are we being coached to stand off the opposition ?

 

[Legend10]

I think the sad thing is, you are guilty of tarring me with the same thing you accuse me of tarring my "scapegoats" with. I'm not even sure why you felt the need to add the whole "obsessing about individuals" bollocks, when the main thrust of my posts and this conversation were complaining about the lack of coached application, a lack of players being taught what to do and when to do it (to bring it to its basic form) and was nothing specifically to do with individuals. But I'm sure that little diatribe got you a couple of extra "winners".

What we as fans enjoy to watch is very subjective. I personally enjoy a team that shows evidence of work spent on the training ground - what you call over prescriptive - incorrectly - in my opinion, I call an absolute fundamental basic necessity. And as I said, and evidenced in subsequent posts, this whole AVB was over complicating in a Lobanovsky type bamboozling game play way is nonsense.

What he was trying to do was no more complex than most decent teams do. Control the football, condense the pitch out of possession, work coherently. You can validly call it risk averse. I have no problem with that as an start pint as an argument, or his efficacy at delivering his philosophy, but over prescriptive, no, not in my opinion.

But we would then have to talk about individuals as well, and that is verboten of course.

I wasn't being entirely disingenuous, just flippant. I don't buy the Redknapp methodology one bit. I don't believe any decent club - (SAF's) ManU, Chelsea, Arsenal, ManC to name the four most successful UK clubs (but add to that the clubs leading the Spanish, german, Italian leagues over the years) buy into that - non philosophy - either.

I don't even think Redknapp totally bought into either, he just didn't have the ability to coach anything else on a regular basis. Which is why we are the only decent club he's managed and why he's now managing in the Championship, despite his 40 years experience.

Sorry where did you evidence this?

 

[Mr Pink]

Allow me to jump in here, I have a reasonable idea of what tends to go on (to a certain extent) at top football clubs in terms of coaching methods, training methodologies, attention to details etc and yes I have had experience of going into a professional setting and seeing top level coaches work - and BCs far nearer the money than most on here would like to believe.

At some levels the attention to detail, the minutae in which players are coached and the expectations of what they are meant to do on the field is astounding sometimes.

Of course some coaches are more detailed than others, some prefer to rely on the individual moments of players more than others and there is always a trade off that needs to be made, but fuck me I have been amazed at the level of detail some coaches will go into as part of their methodology.

With respect to what's going on at Tottenham though, I'll certainly put more stock in JJ's confirmation of such.

 

[ShelfSide18]

With respect to what's going on at Tottenham though, I'll certainly put more stock in JJ's confirmation of such.

I don't really follow much of the ITK stuff to be honest, so have no idea as to JJs influence and understanding of what goes on at Spurs myself.

 

[Legend10]

You are not exactly impartial when it comes to AVB (the fraud) and Tim Sherwood are you JJ ?

Are we being coached to stand off the opposition ?

Is there a 'b' side to this record, or seriously is 'pressing' the only thing you can talk about, over and over again!

And why ask that question, when actually Sherwood addressed it at the weekend? Our out of possession work was a mess under AVB as well, he hardly left Sherwood a defensive blueprint to just carry on with did he.

And i think JJ could throw the impartiality straight back couldn't he, not exactly neutral yourself BC are you?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Sorry where did you evidence this?

Have a good read. Bale, Townsend, Paulinho, etc. No-one was victim of AVB's thought control. Players were just being coached to be mindful of other aspects too.

I personally think the intelligence of certain individuals is a major factor, for both AVb and Sherwood. Which is why we are still struggling to convert "situations" into quality chances - see West ham, West Brom, Arsenal, Palace, ManC, Hull, Everton.

I preferred AVB's "controlled approach" to poor creativity, to Sherwood's stretched pitch, stand off and watch the opposition play approach to poor creativity.

Other opinions are available.

 

[Original # 10]

Have a good read. Bale, Townsend, Paulinho, etc. No-one was victim of AVB's thought control. Players were just being coached to be mindful of other aspects too.

I personally think the intelligence of certain individuals is a major factor, for both AVb and Sherwood. Which is why we are still struggling to convert "situations" into quality chances - see West ham, West Brom, Arsenal, Palace, ManC, Hull, Everton.

I preferred AVB's "controlled approach" to poor creativity, to Sherwood's stretched pitch, stand off and watch the opposition play approach to poor creativity.

Other opinions are available.

You forgot to mention Stoke, Swansea and Soton. 9 goals, 9 points

 

[FinnYid]

This sounds ridiculous.

What exactly sounds ridiculous?

 

[Mr Pink]

I don't really follow much of the ITK stuff to be honest, so have no idea as to JJs influence and understanding of what goes on at Spurs myself.

To be honest mate, reading David's post makes a lot of sense - JJ confirming that's been what's going on doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Don't often see him respond to stuff in this section but pretty telling he did here. That post absolutely nailed it IMO.

We were too rigid under AVB, the whole style of play, Bale aside, was risk averse and the players were playing with very little freedom in terms of expression. That's what shone through to me, and many others I suspect, so strongly.

Playing in such a restricted and prescriptive manner can't be conducive to the 'collective learning curve' for want of a better expression, particularly with so many new faces, like the passing instincts of one another and anticipating movement.

I strongly disagree with this notion that we were just missing a little attacking verve, we were starved of it because we showed such little ambition in our passing and movement.

We were good defensively under him for the most part but this wasn't just down to pressing high up sporadically, it was largely down to the aforementioned lack of ambition and our absolute obsession with taking long range pot shots on - another example of being risk averse as you're not ceding possession by doing such.

Remains to be seen how Sherwood will do of course, but he has recognised the biggest problem we had under AVB this season and is trying to rectify that particular issue even if he hasn't been entirely successful in doing so thus far.

Still plenty of concerns to mull over, obviously the gaps and space in front of the back four which is dropping deeper is a big one but this line from David sums it up for me:

'The degree to which his loosening of the tactical approach succeeds will dictate whether he keeps his job this Summer'

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Is there a 'b' side to this record, or seriously is 'pressing' the only thing you can talk about, over and over again!

And why ask that question, when actually Sherwood addressed it at the weekend? Our out of possession work was a mess under AVB as well, he hardly left Sherwood a defensive blueprint to just carry on with did he.

And i think JJ could throw the impartiality straight back couldn't he, not exactly neutral yourself BC are you?

No there isn't a b side. Why don't you accept that pressing, closing down, working off the ball coherently is just a pretty basic function that most decent teams (and a shitload of non decent teams) do ? It's getting really tedious listening to you whine about it. Even Sherwood acknowledged it, so surely we can talk about it ?

I absolutely didn't want AVB to be sacked, it's not like I'm surreptitiously hiding that view. But I actually wanted Sherwood to be given the job - he was my first call I think. I'm not criticising Sherwood because he's not AVB, I am criticising Sherwood because I do not like much of what I am seeing. And this is pretty consistent. You know what I value, so it's hardly surprising I'm going to critical of much of what I am seeing right now is it.

You cannot ignore comparisons IMO, this only bothers people when the comparison is unfavourable. Mr P was happily telling me how we are creating much more under Sherwood after a couple of "3 goals" games, but he soon starting resenting comparisons when our performances became turgid. It's just hypocrisy. It's perfectly natural and rational to compare the regimes. One is there because the other isn't. To ignore this is futile.

To say our out of possession work was a mess is just rubbish that is not supported by the vast majority of evidence. Record points last year, very good defensive record this year bar City and Liverpool, best ever away wins rate (both seasons). We had become a team that did not usually get bullied anywhere, this was largely due to the work we did off the ball. You just clearly didn't notice or understand this.

 

[ravo]

You're being disingenuous here. You know perfectly well that 'over-coached' is not cured by 'less coaching'. The concept of a team that has been 'over-coached' is about a coach/manager who has set up a system that is too rigid and denies the players the flexibility to respond to match situations in a spontaneous manner, because the coach is more concerned with players following instructions than he is with players addressing what is actually happening in the split-second context of a football match.

The solution for that is (as you know, but were more than willing to ignore in order to make a spurious, argumentative point) not 'less coaching', it is 'better coaching'.

I don't really have a problem with the Redknapp style of 'under-coaching', because the man has about 40 years of experience and has developed a good sense for when to step back and when to step in. He usually knows what requires specific instructions and what requires him to get the fuck out of his players' hair and let them do what they're paid to do.

AVB and Sherwood do not have those decades of understanding to fall back upon. AVB, the evidence suggests, responds by being over-prescriptive and the visible result was a number of very good footballers looking constipated and hesitant. Bale didn't look constipated and hesitant last season, but Bale is Bale. We removed Bale and the evident result was a stymied and stifled team of very good footballers.

Sherwood is trying a tack closer to Redknapp's approach, but he lacks the seasoned wisdom to apply it reliably. He's got to learn that on the job. He has a great advantage, which is that he doesn't have any bad footballers in his squad (not a single one - and don't start, FFS). He is trying to loosen the tactical strait-jacket of prescriptive roles and behaviours on the pitch, without creating a chaotic, disorganised style. So far, sometimes it has worked and sometimes it has failed.

The degree to which his loosening of the tactical approach succeeds will dictate whether he keeps his job this Summer. In the meantime, I suggest that you observe the overall flow of play, instead of doing what you do, which is to obsess about individual players you detest and scrape around, in a grossly biased manner, for scraps of evidence that AVB's system was going to produce the kind of entertaining, free-flowing football that we have seen, but only in brief flashes and scarcely at all on Sunday, since he was sacked.

It isn't about one way being good and the other way being bad. It's about understanding clearly what you are seeing. You don't. Because your bigotry about individuals has the effect of blinding you. Almost all the time.

Great post. Agree with all and would add by saying I think Sherwood may well have the ability, but IMO he really should learning on the job elsewhere (e.g. a lower league team or shadowing another manager). I am worried that some of our players may be looking to leave if he keeps the job past the end of this season.

 

[ravo]

I've seen this loads. What is it?

 

[THFCSPURS19]

I've seen this loads. What is it?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

To be honest mate, reading David's post makes a lot of sense - JJ confirming that's been what's going on doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Don't often see him respond to stuff in this section but pretty telling he did here. That post absolutely nailed it IMO.

You forgot to mention Stoke, Swansea and Soton. 9 goals, 9 points

Would you like me to quote you all the games where we didn't score just 1 goal and got 3 points under AVB just to balance this out ?

 

[Legend10]

Have a good read. Bale, Townsend, Paulinho, etc. No-one was victim of AVB's thought control. Players were just being coached to be mindful of other aspects too.

I personally think the intelligence of certain individuals is a major factor, for both AVb and Sherwood. Which is why we are still struggling to convert "situations" into quality chances - see West ham, West Brom, Arsenal, Palace, ManC, Hull, Everton.

I preferred AVB's "controlled approach" to poor creativity, to Sherwood's stretched pitch, stand off and watch the opposition play approach to poor creativity.

Other opinions are available.

Ok so it was just an opinion.

Here we go again, how do you know what the payers were being coached by AVB?

I for one don't know what he was coaching them but whatever it was it was making us on the pitch where it counts look slow, laborious, mechanical, bereft of any idea of how to create chances, unlikely to score unless it was from 25 yards plus or a pen and downright boring to watch, painfully boring to watch. And what i don't get is this insulation that under Sherwood we've suddenly become bad when not in possession, when we've been bad out of possession all season long. At least Sherwood has publicly stated a number of times that it's not good enough and on Sunday was even exasperated by it, not something i heard or saw from AVB about it.

The liverpool home defeat was the worst i have ever seen a Premiership side play without the ball, the worst ever, it was diabolical, scandalous, is that really what AVB's coaching took us to and we are holding that up as some sort of methodology! And Liverpool where the ones who eventually exposed it in its full glory, but lets not forget West Ham, Newcastle and City also ripped through it and in terms of West Ham, City & Liverpool barely a shot in anger at the other end either. Is that where AVB's supposedly superior coaching took us. We've been exposed for 30 minutes at home by City, 30 by Palace and 20 by Everton, it's not good enough, but we've hung in and eventually turned it around to win 2 of those games, but that's the sort of slow starts we've had for so long it seems difficult to shake it off, it's become a habit and a habit developed long before Sherwood took over.

Sherwood has a lot of problems to resolve and i think has a very difficult job, he took over a team in a mess, he's not going to transform that overnight but even through difficult times and a lot of injuries he's scrambled together 20 points from a possible 27, only that has kept us in the running!

What i will say about Sherwood is following a string of dodgy first 45's he's got the team coming out 2nd half performing far better, so he is getting a response even if it's not from the off, if he can get that then we are still in a race that we probably have no right to be in.

 

[Mr Pink]

Would you like me to quote you all the games where we didn't score just 1 goal and got 3 points under AVB just to balance this out ?

three goals or more, this season under AVB in the league, go for it!

 

[FinnYid]

Would you like me to quote you all the games where we didn't score just 1 goal and got 3 points under AVB just to balance this out ?

I'll help you out, this season at PL it's four out of 16 games. Games where we failed to score at PL 6 out 16. Corresponding stats are 5 out of 9 and 0 out of 9.