Match Ratings Ratings vs Liverpool

[EastLondonYid]

Love Poch but today he messed up

I feared the worse before the game.....

so many things he got wrong today, but he has so much credit in the bank... So lets move on and hopefully Poch will learn what he got wrong today

A few players need benching atm

 

[fortworthspur]

Id like to say Liverpool was great but they really weren't. And we had the right players out there, they just didnt perform well. 5s across the board.

 

[THX2208]

Michel Vorm

Stood up to make a save from Salah on 21 minutes after the Egyptian latched on to a poor Dier pass. However, he flapped at the corner with Van Dijk in front of him and couldn't stop Winjanldum's header going back over him and across the goal line. Just before the break he rushed out to stop Mane getting through. He made a good reflex save from the same player early in the second half. He couldn't get hold of the ball after it hit the post for Liverpool's second. Saved from Keita after the hour mark and made a full length save to deny Salah with ten minutes to go. The Dutchman made plenty of saves but only his errors will be remembered. 5

Kieran Trippier

He pinged a superb ball over the top into the path of Eriksen but the Dane fell in the box. Mane got in behind him far too easily for Liverpool's second goal. Didn't contribute enough at either end and played a horrible pass late on which put Sturridge through on goal. 5

Toby Alderweireld

Made a series of interceptions and he was probably Spurs' best defender on the day. 7

Jan Vertonghen

It was his attempted block that put the ball on to the post for Liverpool' second goal. Not his usual calm composed self. 6

Danny Rose

Showed plenty of energy in getting up and down the left but his use of the ball wasn't good enough particularly in the Liverpool half. Had a late effort deflected wide. 5

Eric Dier

Very sloppy back pass that put Salah through midway in the first half but played a fine ball down the line to Eriksen on the half hour mark for a move that culminated in his own shot being deflected wide. Took a couple of whacks to the face and was replaced by Wanyama with eight minutes to go. Not his best day at the office and just couldn't keep hold of the ball. 4

Mousa Dembele

The Belgian showed plenty of strength but even he was sloppy with his passing at times. Was replaced by Lamela on the hour. 5

Harry Winks

His first Premier League start since December last year. He worked hard in a tough match and but it doesn't seem to work for him when Dembele and Dier are both alongside him. Replaced by Son on 72 minutes. 5

Christian Eriksen

Claims for an early penalty after a good run but there was little contact. Forced Alisson into a 28th minute save with a free-kick he won. It was his sloppy header back that led to the corner Liverpool opened the scoring from. Just hasn't been able to hit the heights this season yet. 5

Lucas Moura

The Brazilian struggled to find space in the first half but early in the second period dispossessed Van Dijk but couldn't get away from the Liverpool defence. Soon after he cut in from the left wing and fired a low shot that hit the outside of the post. Tried to make things happen but couldn't get away from his marker most of the time. 7

Harry Kane

Barely touched the ball all game and just isn't taking shots at goal. Something needs to change for the striker because he's just not himself alongside Lucas. 3

Subs

Erik Lamela ?

Drove through on 84 minutes and rolled a shot just wide of the Liverpool goal. The one player who looked like he wanted to take the game by the scruff of the neck and make something happen and he deserved his goal in added time, volleying home from a tight angle. 8

Heung-Min Son

Had a shout for a late penalty but had few opportunities to change the game. 5

Victor Wanyama

Came on late on for Dier. N/A

 

[Phomesy]

Not sure why all the Vorm hate - first goal, Liverpool crowded the box, and made it difficult for Vorm to get to the ball - and he made a poor clearance as a result. There was not a whole lot more he could have done in that situation. Hell we were lucky Vertonghen was not called for a pen by being draped all over VVD..

Vorm also had a few key saves today - so, even if you find him at fault for both goals, he did well enough to keep us in the match, while Dier was busy trying to give it away.

He's a good shot-stopper but he was so hesitant and un-commanding of his area - and his nervousness affected the rest of his defence.

Having said that it wan't Vorm's fault our midfield kept fucking passing the ball to Liverpool players.

 

[fridgemagnet]

Some of the performances this season have looked like a manager trying to issue a massive message to the chairman or players but I can't believe Poch would willingly throw the team under the bus like that, yet Watford match it looked like he was trying to prove a point to the players (those vocal about us being title challengers post UTD game)

It looks like certain egos came back over inflated after the World Cup, Poch looks to be shoe horning players into un-natural positions to cover for;

• Injuries.
• Loss of form.
• Lack of pre-season with full squad.
• Having players he didn't want forced upon him. (maybe I'm incorrect on this)
• Lack of Summer recruitment (whether that's down to Levy not willing to pay current inflated rates/crazy agent fees) or Poch not prepared to budge if Levy is unable to secure our first choices.

I've always been of the opinion in recent years that our squad actually overachieves (despite not winning anything; as the few genuine World Class players we do actually have dragged the others kicking and screaming up to above their true levels, the problems come when those truly World Class players aren't firing you get a whole heap of average and I'll get disagrees but it is the brutal truth IMHO.

I know it's early yet but I think Poch* and Levy need to sit down and agree we should go shopping in January, even if that means we'll rarely see them for half a season whilst Poch gets them where he wants them (like Lucas) if we can't compete in the Summer windows then we need to change tactics and shop in January, maintaining the status-quo means we'll see the same outcomes if we wait until summer IMHO.

*doG help us if he leaves.

 

[dannythomas]

We played 3 -5-2 at Watford when we didn’t need to. We played 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 ( not sure which it was supposed to be ) today when 3 at the back made more sense with Liverpool playing 3 up front.

I really don’t want to sound like a broken record but if we are playing a flat back 4 then Trippier and Rose should not be our full backs. They are both much more effective as wing backs. In Trippier’s case it’s the lesser of 2 evils because I don’t think Aurier defends any better. Not sure about KWP. But why on earth play Davies as a wing back and Rose as a full back ?

What is worrying ( amongst other things ) is that we only played well in the 25 minutes during the first half when Dembele played well. When he faded so did we. Plus of course Eriksen and Kane have barely contributed anything at all this season.

Truthfully we could have lost 5-0 today and couldn’t have complained. Ironically Son could possibly have leveled with the last kick of the game which would have been a travesty.

I’m starting to go with those who like the idea of benching Kane and Eriksen. I think we could only do that when Dele comes back because the only player creative enough to do what Eriksen is supposed to be doing in midfield is Lamela. And in DM we have to trust in Wanyama and Winks to take over from Dembele and Dier.

The loss of Lloris is huge. We look like conceding goals at every set piece and I believe our central defenders have no faith in Vorm either.

Finally it’s all very well to say that we didn’t need to sign anyone because the main thing was to keep all our existing squad. But FFS this was a World Cup summer. Plus the not needed Nations League. Most of our players are shattered . Not smart Daniel.

Vorm- Double error for first goal, We were in trouble every set piece and he had no presence at all in those situations.Every team we play against will crowd him as Liverpool did. We need Lloris back soon.

Trippier- A couple of intelligent runs in the first half but got progressively worse.

Alderweireld- just ok . Doesn’t look as commanding with Vorm behind him.

Vertonghen- same as Toby.

Rose - His passing in the first half was awful. Even during the period we had control he was a weak link. Played ok in last 15 minutes after 75 minutes of dross.

Dier- As @Bus Conductor used to say, he has the turning circle of a large boat. I don’t care what anyone says he is a better defender than midfielder.

Dembele- Please revert back to his role being a sub for the last 20 -30 minutes.He can’t physically carry our midfield any longer.

Winks- Worked hard, but understandably not match sharp yet.

Eriksen- A few promising moves in the first half then started giving the ball away before going into hiding. Needs benching for Lamela.

Moura- Played brightly, worked hard and could , perhaps should , have scored.

Kane- Absolutely awful. Needs a 2 week break at least.

Lamela - Played with energy when he came on, very well taken goal.

Son - Not much time, could have scored at the death, took one touch too many. Hope he is not exhausted because we need him.

Wanyama - Needs game time, he is a much better option that Dier in midfield. He hasn’t suddenly become a bad player.

 

[mpickard2087]

Going into this game, based on what we've done so far this season, I was apprehensive. I haven't liked a lot of what we have done, particularly off the ball, and I felt if we continued in that vein then Liverpool are a team who would really exploit that. During the week in the build up to the game I said this in the match thread:

I think it mostly depends on what we do without the ball.

Whether we are looking to push higher up the pitch and press, or sitting deep behind the ball and playing on the counter (as we did last season), it's got to be done as a collective and everyone pulling their weight (plus a sensible shape/formation to reflect the tactics).

If we get what we've largely got so far this season... Too open between the lines, poor pressing as both a team and individuals, allowing the opposition far too much easy space to exploit and then eventually give up numerous chances... Then it wont be a pleasant watch at all I suspect. This game we need to have a really strong team performance and arrive into the new season.

We didn't fix it, we got as big a thrashing as a 2-1 defeat can be, I shouldn't be surprised having predicted it..... And yet just how abject it was did shock me a bit in that it got even worse. Bar a ten minute spell in the first half when we at least had a bit of respite possession we were all over the place and this pattern didn't alter, we couldn't stem the flow. I'm not even sure there was concerted effort to try and stem it, we just seemed to go through the motions and carry on regardless.


I want to get into more general issues beyond this match, but first I have to start by saying that we desperately need to address some of the issues that have been occurring in all the matches so far this season - whether we win or lose.

Quality wise with the ball at our feet it's not clicking right now, but more worryingly, and imperative to fix, is that as a collective right now we just aren't working hard enough. Newcastle, Fulham, United, Watford, Today.... All the games I am seeing the same things. We just aren't working hard enough, putting enough into our pressing game, we aren't compact and leave wide open spaces, people are losing their individual duels, its just far too easy for the opposition to advance and create chances. That just happened at will today, and their were two embarrassing moments where Liverpool played a couple of rudimentary passes out of defence and all of a sudden were baring down on our goal three/four vs. our two. Completely unacceptable to be happening for a top team.

I know we have numerous players that have had long summers, and it was going to be a difficult start, but it's up to Poch to earn that huge paypacket and find the solutions in tricky scenarios. Right now we're carrying a couple of passengers in particular (you can argue for more) in Kane and Eriksen, and you wont get away with it. Kane seemingly cant or wont press, and Eriksen at the start of this campaign is looking as flimsy and lacking appetite for the battle as I can recall - which, when we has been tasked to play in centre mid often, is a recipe for disaster.

Tactics are also not helping. Yet again today Poch persists with two out and out strikers and a narrow midfield behind - I don't see how you can press well with these shapes and such poor pitch coverage - this week in the shape of a 4-4-2 with a narrow diamond. Bonkers against this Liverpool team, as it means you rely on your fullbacks to push forward for any width and leaves you prime to get ruined sans lube on the counter attack by their front three when the ball gets turned over. Which happened time, and time, and time again. Other features were a badly balanced trio of Winks, Dembele, and Dier, who all want to do the same job, none get ahead of the ball, and ended up holding hands in the centre of the pitch, and two central isolated strikers again holding hands and not working in tandem across the front and complimenting what the other was doing. It was a disjointed mess.

To be fair to Poch I will acknowledge that he did try to change this in the second half. He pulled Moura to the left and went with a more conventional 4-3-3 shape and then to a 4-2-3-1 after the substitutions and we still looked awful and got cut through with ease, showing that it isn't all down to formation, but that just proves that right now across the pitch the collective just isn't working well enough and the buck stops with him. He's got to rediscover that energy, that hunger, that workrate, our press, get in the faces of the opposition and be more difficult to play against. I haven't even mentioned what we do with the ball, and our technical quality, because the foundations need to bolstered first before we get too far ahead of ourselves.


In general, I have since during the course of last season started to ponder Poch's reign, how long he's got left and how he adapts and what changes the longer his tenure. Last season I felt we were inconsistent compared to the previous two in some aspects, particularly our pressing, and it declined a bit. The start of this season has only been worse in this aspect (maybe admittedly with mitigating circumstances), what are the answers and how do we refresh?

I've read before that a lot of managers with a similar approach, I remember Guardiola when he left Barca as one good example, saying that they think that after about four years something has to change. Players have given everything they can to what the manager wants and need to ease off, whilst the coach is spent for ideas and struggles for that same voice to keep motivating the players. Evolution is needed, either on or off the field.....

As I say I have started to think about this more and more, and do think there is merit to this argument. Poch's philosophy and approach to the game is an extremely demanding one, I think it's inevitable that at some point change will have to be made - some of these players, especially as they get older, aren't going to be able to keep going again and again season after season, that youthful exuberance and energy and willingness to put in the hard work will decline, even if only relatively slightly. and these might well be cornerstone players at the heart of the team. The challenge will be successfully transitioning and making the decisions as to when and how its done. Now I don't mean this to sound all doom and gloom, and that everything needs ripping up and replacing, but with the dip towards the end of the season extending on into the new one, and some parts of the team looking in all honesty a bit stale, I do start to wonder more about the challenges ahead.....

Anyway, back to the short term. We simply badly need to regain some momentum, and firstly some energy and intensity to our play and rediscover that work ethic. Time for Poch to earn his corn.


As for individuals......

Vorm - Flapped badly for the first goal, the second didn't look very clever on the ultra slow-mo reply but I haven't seen it again in real time so maybe he just couldn't react in time...... However end result is he didn't look too clever on either goal, so some decent saves as the match wore on are ultimately a moot point.

Trippier - Fullbacks were constantly exposed/stranded up pitch, some of it their fault but some you'd have to blame on tactical failings. However he did get badly done for the second goal and lost Mane far too easily. Apart from a couple of bright-ish moments not a lot else you can say.

Alderweireld - Some good last ditch defending, some that wasn't, some of his use of the ball was a bit ropey today I thought..... But ultimately playing centreback for us today was a pretty thankless task.

Vertonghen - The other who drew the short straw today and had to endure being a Tottenham centreback.

Rose - I think his flank was the more secure for the most part, but he too was stranded too often. A bit concerned that he looked a different player, who had several more gears he could go through, for England than he does for us currently..... That needs working out and to get the best out of him.

Dier - Classic game where he shits himself when he gets put under pressure. No idea what his role was on the right of midfield.

Dembele - Didn't look as sure footed. Had a competent 10-15 min spell and then disappeared out of the game.

Winks - Sure he loved that for a comeback. Not a side midfield player in a diamond and just wanted to do what Dembele and Dier did - stay behind the ball and work in the same areas.

Eriksen - A total passenger right now. Offering Mesut Ozil levels of effort when we don't have the ball, and continues to be way below his best when we do have it, and shows how reliant we are on him.

Kane - Passenger #2. May as well not be on the pitch currently.

Moura - Tries, had a couple of good bursts and unlucky to hit the post, but little idea of many of the facets of playing up top really, and what is the point of just lumping long balls at him constantly? (probably the best example of us struggling to play any football).

Subs:
Lamela - At least offered a smidgen of energy, and took his goal well.

Son - Didn't do a lot.

Wanyama - Neither did he.

 

[DannyNZ]

Just a terrible team set up and then followed by a woeful performance. The midfield three was a disaster it stifled any forward movement and we resorted to long balls. Eriksen our most creative player resorted to dropping deep to get the ball leaving just Moura ahead of him, forgetting Kane as he wasn’t at the races.

Trippier is not a good full back in a back four and particularly against Liverpool he was always a good bet for gifting them chances. Vorm might have crewed up but Dier should have saved his butt on the first goal but his header was weaker than Vorm punch and Vorm totally exposed on the second by some nonexistent defending by Trippier.

MOTM has to be Moura but Poch needs to really sort out his tactics and set the team up better. It is tragic seeing Son and Lamela on the bench while Dier, winks and Dembele look like three blind mice in the midfield. Kane is either knackered or we are not set up properly to get anything out of him.

 

[yusrisafri]

Toby to Dier
Dier back to Toby
Toby to Jan
Jan to Rose
Rose back to Jan
Jan to Toby
Toby to Trippier
Trippier to Dier
Dier to Toby
Long hopeful ball up from Toby

Possession lost

Stats will tell you we had 60% possession.

 

[DCSPUR]

Poor from nearly all of them today, but my biggest gripe is it was yet another formation change. Is that 5 games and 4 different systems now? We need to get some sort of consistency going, and the constant changes are causing nothing but problems IMO.

Good sides let the opposition worry about them not the other way round.

Got to be honest...this is a frustrating comment because of the source.
1. You know better than the rest of us that the transfer window wasn't terrific in terms of getting in some needed cover
2. Poch has said several times since pre-season that he'd have to manage certain players and have lots of rotation the first period of the season because of the WC SF issue and all the call ups for the bloomin Nations Cup
3. Add to that the fact that several of the players who should have been available and fit/ fresh (eg Wanyama, Lamela) got injuries during pre/early season.
4. Silly suspensions
5. Incorporating the one player who seems fit and in form (LM)
6. Son going to Asia
7. Finally add in injuries to key players (eg Alli) and you have a situation where Poch has to manage the group and make shifts in formation.

If the group was somewhere close to fit (mentally and physically), I suspect our team would have been:
Hugo, Trippier, Sanchez, Toby, Verts, Davies, Wanyama, Eriksen, Alli, Son, Kane in a 3 (Sanchez, Toby, Verts), 3 (Trippier, Wanyama, Davies), 3 (Eriksen, Alli, Son), 1 (Kane).....or as some people like to reference it 5-1-3-1

Promise you, it would have been a different game. The difference between us and Pool now is that their top players look a LOT fresher because they weren't at the WC or left early.....its pretty relevant that Hendo is being used so sparingly.

In a funny way, the Alli injury, if it is 3-4 weeks may end up giving us a fresher player for the rest of the season.

 

[PLTuck]

I can't rate really as I've only seen the motd "highlights".

Vorm looked like I used to when I played rush goalie. Shite.
Kanes name I don't remember hearing once.
Mistakes all over the pitch.
Trying to find positives, Moura, Lamela and Son looked lively, and it was a stonewall pen on Son, so slightly robbed of a point..

 

[sausage]

Not sure why all the Vorm hate - first goal, Liverpool crowded the box, and made it difficult for Vorm to get to the ball - and he made a poor clearance as a result. There was not a whole lot more he could have done in that situation. Hell we were lucky Vertonghen was not called for a pen by being draped all over VVD..

Vorm also had a few key saves today - so, even if you find him at fault for both goals, he did well enough to keep us in the match, while Dier was busy trying to give it away.

Personally, I feel he has declined quite rapidly. It's to the point where I'd rather we play Gazzaniga, so that even if he had a poor game we could peg it down to development. Vorm isn't going to improve from here tbh, and isn't playing enough games to sustain a high level of form (unlike Friedel).

Tbh, I used to prefer Vorm for some games as I felt he was a good, solid shot stopper without the squeaky-bum moments of Lloris sprinting into a loose ball and (often) taking out a player. I used to feel confident seeing him on the team sheet. I haven't had that feeling for a long time now.

 

[Flashspur]

There are a number of players just making up the numbers. Kane is playing like a fucking zombie. Drop him FFS. Llorente could not be any worse. I prefer Aurier and Davies to Rose and Trippier. More fucking energy. CM is a dead zone. Two crocks in Wanyama and Moussa and Dier is playing like he is running through concrete. Winks is 50% of the Winks of old. Toby and Jan and Moura are the only regulars who look like they have any desire. Lamela should have played. Eriksen is back to hiding when the going gets tough. It’s a mess.

The manager needs to look in the mirror and give himself an uppercut. Poor tactics, idiotic formations, players in positions they don’t play in. Levy needs to be smacked around the head with a cheque book. WTF? Inter is going to be embarrassing.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I think the lack of any change in style, personnel or formation at half time was extremely disappointing and while I was initially pleased with the team selection, I was confused by the use of the players picked. Up against the fastest wings in the world pretty much, we had Eriksen and Moura almost playing as two centre forwards which a) left Trippier and Rose totally exposed and b) pushed Kane in every direction but towards the opposition goal. I was perplexed by how Kane and Eriksen both saw out the 90, they were truly appalling, and both Dier and Dembele continuously made sloppy unforced errors. Winks was weak and unambitious. Lamela and Son both improved us by giving us energy up front and out wide but we’d lost already by the time they were introduced. Alderweireld was unusually sloppy and Vorm continues to be mentally weak. I don’t understand how Gazzaniga doesn’t get a chance, if he’s not better than this guy then why is he taking up a non-hg slot instead of Foyth for instance. The worst part is, I don’t even think Liverpool did anything special, this was just a combination of key players playing very below par and the manager making inexplicable decisions. The second we switched to 4231 and had Lamela and Son on the pitch we played far closer to the Liverpool goal. This is the formation that works for us, even when playing poorly it works because everyone has clear roles.
I spare Vertonghen, Lucas and the subs from criticism.

Vorm made a few good saves but both goals conceded were inexcusable.

Trippier was sloppy and often lead footed, but wasn’t helped by the 0 protection in front of him.

Alderweireld was sloppy and got pulled in all directions.

Vertonghen was ok.

Rose, like Trippier, was sloppy and seemed to struggle with the simple.

Dier was atrocious. Just poor on and off the ball.

Winks was weak, unimaginative and uninspired.

Dembele just watched the game fly by him and was tripping over himself half the time.

Lucas tried, gave us our only potential threat for most of the game and was the only player up front who seemed to have an energy.

Eriksen was pathetic, he has been all season and was as culpable as Vorm for the first goal conceded.

Kane was slow, clumsy, and often uninterested. Anonymous mostly too.

Son, Lamela both improved us. Lamela took his goal well. Both, alongside a hopefully fit Dele, should replace Winks, Eriksen and Kane for a few matches. Wanyama had no effect.

Pochettino gets my lowest score because he lived up against Europe’s most dangerous wing attack with absolutely no width, seemingly having Lucas and Eriksen tucked in and Kane dropping into a number 10 role. He then didn’t rectify things until it was too late, despite an hour of constant joy for Liverpool down out flanks. This was a throw back to AVB ball.

 

[The Apprentice]

How lamela is top at the moment is a mystery. Lucas was our best player over the 90 by a mile

His work rate and directness are excellent but his use of the ball is wasteful and his touch isn’t great.

Needs to playing off of Kane rather than up top.

 

[SlotBadger]

How lamela is top at the moment is a mystery. Lucas was our best player over the 90 by a mile

Whilst I agree that Lucas was our best player over the 90, multiple users voting for Dier would be what you call a mystery.

Lamela was on the pitch for 30 minutes, lifted the tempo, created 2 chances, had 2 shots and scored our only goal - hardly takes an IQ of 160 to work out why someone would give their vote to him.

 

[ralphs bald spot]

A lot of yesterdays problems were caused by Dembele being to deep it gave them the onus to press further on and he was having no effect on the the game offensively and they were to quick for him defensively. The first goal was always going to be crucial. Once they nicked it they started (particuarly Mane) to exploit the space behind our full backs which led to the second goal and we were then further restricted attacking wise.

Finally to many negative passes at times, especially when good sides press us we need to vary it a bit - Liverpool wanted to press high so put the ball in the space behind their full backs a bit. Basically make sides think it was to easy for them to condense play and I don't thing one of our switch balls made it near a Spurs player

 

[Tonio]

Whilst I agree that Lucas was our best player over the 90, multiple users voting for Dier would be what you call a mystery.

Lamela was on the pitch for 30 minutes, lifted the tempo, created 2 chances, had 2 shots and scored our only goal - hardly takes an IQ of 160 to work out why someone would give their vote to him.

The question to the poll was who was the man of the match. As the match is stretched over 90 minutes and not half an hour, as you have pointed out it was Lucas who was the best player over 90 mins. What was that about IQ again?

 

[jezz]

The question to the poll was who was the man of the match. As the match is stretched over 90 minutes and not half an hour, as you have pointed out it was Lucas who was the best player over 90 mins. What was that about IQ again?

If player came on with 5 mins to go scores a hatrick and wins the game does that mean he can't win MOTM?

 

[Tonio]

If player came on with 5 mins to go scores a hatrick and wins the game does that mean he can't win MOTM?

It would depend if he was the clear outstanding player. Semantics