Ratings vs Monaco

[Grapo2001]

That's the least of our defensive worry... A greater concern is Vertonghen, how do you feel about him?

A liability, slow, poor decision making. I could go on...

 

[Bus-Conductor]

One of my issues with Vertonghen is what he does with the ball. I started pointing this out about a year ago, and it's only got worse in this time. No longer do we have the confident player who is willing to stride out of defence with the ball and take the game forward, like was seen at Ajax and when he first came to us. Now I recognise that he might have tactical instruction to just keep it simple when playing out of the back and how/when he pushes forward (that doesn't stop Alderweireld though...), but what we see now is someone who is indecisive, unable to pick a pass a lot of the time, and will just play it ultra safe. And these 'safe' passes aren't even that sometimes... he's very prone to hitting some dribbly under hit pass, rather than a crisp weighted one, that puts his man (usually the left back) in trouble.

For someone who came in to such fanfare about his ball playing skills, and started with such promise, he's almost becoming a weak link when we have possession.

I think this is a rare issue where we disagree, I still think Vertonghen's comfort on the ball is crucial to Pochettino's style and I don't think his passing is bad at all. I think Wimmer's was noticeably worse, frequently whacking the ball at players already under pressure.

I think Alderweireld's defensive errors get ignored and Vertonghen's don't. And Vertonghen's decent defending seems to rarely get mentioned. I think most games last season these two's contribution was pretty even and very harmonious.

I still think on balance, especially when I look around the PL Vertonghen's all round skill set, in tandem with Alderweireld's are a big asset.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are better pure defenders, but when you look around the PL last year, there weren't that many, and there certainly weren't many with the all round skill set.

I think his forward surges have been severely curtailed by the fact that Rose is invariably 30 metres ahead of the cb's.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Absolutely astounding he is undroppable for Spurs and England, must be a ripping bloke.

He plays very well for England to be fair.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I think this is a rare issue where we disagree, I still think Vertonghen's comfort on the ball is crucial to Pochettino's style and I don't think his passing is bad at all. I think Wimmer's was noticeably worse, frequently whacking the ball at players already under pressure.

I think Alderweireld's defensive errors get ignored and Vertonghen's don't. And Vertonghen's decent defending seems to rarely get mentioned. I think most games last season these two's contribution was pretty even and very harmonious.

I still think on balance, especially when I look around the PL Vertonghen's all round skill set, in tandem with Alderweireld's are a big asset.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are better pure defenders, but when you look around the PL last year, there weren't that many, and there certainly weren't many with the all round skill set.

I think his forward surges have been severely curtailed by the fact that Rose is invariably 30 metres ahead of the cb's.

Toby's a man's man. Vertonghen is prone to being a wuss.

 

[slartibartfast]

I think this is a rare issue where we disagree, I still think Vertonghen's comfort on the ball is crucial to Pochettino's style and I don't think his passing is bad at all. I think Wimmer's was noticeably worse, frequently whacking the ball at players already under pressure.

I think Alderweireld's defensive errors get ignored and Vertonghen's don't. And Vertonghen's decent defending seems to rarely get mentioned. I think most games last season these two's contribution was pretty even and very harmonious.

I still think on balance, especially when I look around the PL Vertonghen's all round skill set, in tandem with Alderweireld's are a big asset.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are better pure defenders, but when you look around the PL last year, there weren't that many, and there certainly weren't many with the all round skill set.

I think his forward surges have been severely curtailed by the fact that Rose is invariably 30 metres ahead of the cb's.

He completed 116 passes last night. All to Toby lol.
I miss Verts bombing forward. Does it now and then but not as often as Id like.
Still we have got 2 fantastic cbs. Could do a lot worse than Wimmer as well.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think this is a rare issue where we disagree, I still think Vertonghen's comfort on the ball is crucial to Pochettino's style and I don't think his passing is bad at all. I think Wimmer's was noticeably worse, frequently whacking the ball at players already under pressure.

I think Alderweireld's defensive errors get ignored and Vertonghen's don't. And Vertonghen's decent defending seems to rarely get mentioned. I think most games last season these two's contribution was pretty even and very harmonious.

I still think on balance, especially when I look around the PL Vertonghen's all round skill set, in tandem with Alderweireld's are a big asset.

Don't get me wrong, I think there are better pure defenders, but when you look around the PL last year, there weren't that many, and there certainly weren't many with the all round skill set.

I think his forward surges have been severely curtailed by the fact that Rose is invariably 30 metres ahead of the cb's.

I take your point about Rose pushing right on, but then these days we have Dier sitting between the centre backs and Dembele (and this year, so far, Wanyama) never too far away which does sometimes free up the centre backs to find space and take the ball forward.

I do think he's regressed in this aspect and we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know if its confidence or not, but the default for him these days seems to often be just the ultimate safety pass back to Lloris.

 

[slartibartfast]

Toby mom for me.
Him and Walker only 2 who played ok. Son wasn't too bad either. Didnt get thatsub because out of Lamela, Erikson and him he was playing better than those2. Eriksen and Lamela were really poor. Verts passing back to Toby did my head in. Davies turned backwards 8/10 times but didnt have much in front of him to be fair. Lloris kicking was woeful. Kane ran all over the place but should have scored. Taking too many touches when he was previously pulling the trigger first time.
Don't get Alli vote. Didn't have very good game imo. Not by his standards anyway. Was better once he went lw.
Think heat plus poor team selection played a big part last night.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

One of my issues with Vertonghen is what he does with the ball. I started pointing this out about a year ago, and it's only got worse in this time. No longer do we have the confident player who is willing to stride out of defence with the ball and take the game forward, like was seen at Ajax and when he first came to us. Now I recognise that he might have tactical instruction to just keep it simple when playing out of the back and how/when he pushes forward (that doesn't stop Alderweireld though...), but what we see now is someone who is indecisive, unable to pick a pass a lot of the time, and will just play it ultra safe. And these 'safe' passes aren't even that sometimes... he's very prone to hitting some dribbly under hit pass, rather than a crisp weighted one, that puts his man (usually the left back) in trouble.

For someone who came in to such fanfare about his ball playing skills, and started with such promise, he's almost becoming a weak link when we have possession.

I do agree on large parts of your post, but I don't see him as a weak link and I think his passing has improved. As you, I'm wondering whether Pochettino is imposing on him too limited instructions. I'm nonplussed about why he doesn't come out of the defensive 1/3 more often and join the attack. In fact, just yesterday we saw a brief glimpse of his aptness for trying to score. I think it is sad that either himself or Pochettino is limiting him too much, you are right that he shows more flair when he can wander a bit with the ball. However, his actual defensive stats are showing an increase this season so far, he is executing more successful interventions of various types.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I take your point about Rose pushing right on, but then these days we have Dier sitting between the centre backs and Dembele (and this year, so far, Wanyama) never too far away which does sometimes free up the centre backs to find space and take the ball forward.

I do think he's regressed in this aspect and we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't know if its confidence or not, but the default for him these days seems to often be just the ultimate safety pass back to Lloris.

I agree that he doesn't do it as much and I would like to see him do it more, I just wonder if it's his conscious decision or whether Pochettino's tactics have reigned him in a bit, even with Dier dropping in centrally, it still means Vertonghen has to cover the left back area quite a lot, if Rose is up the pitch and Vertonghen charges up and loses the ball, it's going to leave us a bit exposed and Dier's not exactly quick on the spin.

For the record I did a quick check and compared Vertonghen's stats last season with 13/14, Last season he made more passes, 10% more forward passes and still completed 5% more. But his key passes had halved. Another stat - and I'm not sure quite how this metric is worked out but it's squawka's overall attack and defence "score" (I guess based on an aggregate of attacking and defensive facets). His defensive score has improved by 70% according to them, his attacking score has decreased by 85%. I find it hard to believe this is pure coincidence, I think this is by design, the same way we saw Walker see 30% less ball last season, but his defensive performances much more consistent.

I could be wrong.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Interesting stuff, @Bus-Conductor and @mpickard2087 . I preferred it when Lloris used to dash out beyond his box to avert the danger and when Vertonghen used to go on those surging runs through the middle.

 

[mpickard2087]

I agree that he doesn't do it as much and I would like to see him do it more, I just wonder if it's his conscious decision or whether Pochettino's tactics have reigned him in a bit, even with Dier dropping in centrally, it still means Vertonghen has to cover the left back area quite a lot, if Rose is up the pitch and Vertonghen charges up and loses the ball, it's going to leave us a bit exposed and Dier's not exactly quick on the spin.

For the record I did a quick check and compared Vertonghen's stats last season with 13/14, Last season he made more passes, 10% more forward passes and still completed 5% more. But his key passes had halved. Another stat - and I'm not sure quite how this metric is worked out but it's squawka's overall attack and defence "score" (I guess based on an aggregate of attacking and defensive facets). His defensive score has improved by 70% according to them, his attacking score has decreased by 85%. I find it hard to believe this is pure coincidence, I think this is by design, the same way we saw Walker see 30% less ball last season, but his defensive performances much more consistent.

I could be wrong.

I'm not really a stats man, maybe his attacking score has dropped with his goalscoring drying up?

Whatever the stats say, Half the time I watch Vertonghen (he's not the only one, but a major culprit) now and his immediate reaction when the ball is running through to him is not to put his foot on the ball, be having a look and seeing what's on in front of him to play positively... It's to immediately turn round and shepherd it back to Lloris, who is hardly the reliable pass master in our team, loses us 20/30/40 yards of territory, and just allows the opposition vital seconds to reset... I think he's lacking belief, or physically he's lost something. I don't know.

For me, the way I'd envisage Dier (or whoever) dropping inbetween the centre backs to facilitate movement out from the back is that they should be acting in tandem as a pendulum. If Vertonghen is the spare man and gets the ball and can take it forward to build an attack, then Dier sweeps across left to cover as does Alderweireld so you still have two centre backs in position. And mirrored if the outball is on the right. I don't think it's a massive risk, nor are you leaving gaping holes. Alderweireld tries to but doesn't always find the pass. It's just another level of fluidity, seamlessness, and understanding to get to.

Getting off topic but in general I think we, and most other teams could be bolder in playing out from the back. One of my other pet hates is the centre midfielder picking it up off the centre backs toes. I think you should get away from them and allow the CB to pick the pass, I class it as 'inefficient' that when the opposition has dropped off 20 or 30 yards that you have a central midfielder coming and taking the ball and having another player goal side of a whole defensive structure. The centre back should go forward, commit the opposition and then play the pass. It might, just might, aid breaking down stubborn deep defences with a bit more initial bravery and defenders who are prepared to take the initial phases of possession and do something positive.

I know it's easy to say all this and I'm sat under no pressure in a stand or an armchair, but I do think there's scope to be braver. Too many players, including Vertonghen, who's default is the comfy option.

 

[mpickard2087]

Interesting stuff, @Bus-Conductor and @mpickard2087 . I preferred it when Lloris used to dash out beyond his box to avert the danger and when Vertonghen used to go on those surging runs through the middle.

Yes I've said before I miss Hugo's extreme interpretation of the sweeper keeper. Heart attack inducing for some, but a magnificent sight and something that really set him apart. We're not carved open quite so often these days though to call upon it (I think he's changed his style a bit in any case).

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm not really a stats man, maybe his attacking score has dropped with his goalscoring drying up?

Whatever the stats say, Half the time I watch Vertonghen (he's not the only one, but a major culprit) now and his immediate reaction when the ball is running through to him is not to put his foot on the ball, be having a look and seeing what's on in front of him to play positively... It's to immediately turn round and shepherd it back to Lloris, who is hardly the reliable pass master in our team, loses us 20/30/40 yards of territory, and just allows the opposition vital seconds to reset... I think he's lacking belief, or physically he's lost something. I don't know.

For me, the way I'd envisage Dier (or whoever) dropping inbetween the centre backs to facilitate movement out from the back is that they should be acting in tandem as a pendulum. If Vertonghen is the spare man and gets the ball and can take it forward to build an attack, then Dier sweeps across left to cover as does Alderweireld so you still have two centre backs in position. And mirrored if the outball is on the right. I don't think it's a massive risk and you are leaving gaping holes. Alderweireld tries to but doesn't always find the pass. It's just another level of fluidity, seamlessness, and understanding to get to.

Getting off topic but in general I think we, and most other teams could be bolder in playing out from the back. One of my other pet hates is the centre midfielder picking it up off the centre backs toes. I think you should get away from them and allow the CB to pick the pass, I class it as 'inefficient' that when the opposition has dropped off 20 or 30 yards that you have a central midfielder coming and taking the ball and having another player goal side of a whole defensive structure. The centre back should go forward, commit the opposition and then play the pass. It might, just might, aid breaking down stubborn deep defences with a bit more initial bravery and defenders who are prepared to take the initial phases of possession and do something positive.

I know it's easy to say all this and I'm sat under no pressure in a stand or an armchair, but I do think there's scope to be braver. Too many players, including Vertonghen, who's default is the comfy option.

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not making a case against it, just wondering whether it's Vertonghen or Pochettino. As you say, Dier's application should facilitate Vertonghen or Alderweireld moving forward with the ball and (as we see already with Stones being encouraged to do at Barca) and is a another way to pull obdurate bus parkers around - so I'm with you completely in theory, I just wonder if this is something Vertonghen is deciding off his own back or if Poch has reigned him in. I don't remember his CB's being encouraged to surge forward at Southapmton either.

You do see Alderweireld occasionally (and Vertonghen very occasionally) do it, but it's pretty rare these days.


As for Lloris, I was a very minority voice on here a couple of weeks backs making case for Vorm keeping his place for at least a couple more games - I thought he was excellent the the games he played and swept out brilliantly against Palace )or was it Liverpool ? or both ?)

 

[jonathanhotspur]

I'm not really a stats man, maybe his attacking score has dropped with his goalscoring drying up?

Whatever the stats say, Half the time I watch Vertonghen (he's not the only one, but a major culprit) now and his immediate reaction when the ball is running through to him is not to put his foot on the ball, be having a look and seeing what's on in front of him to play positively... It's to immediately turn round and shepherd it back to Lloris, who is hardly the reliable pass master in our team, loses us 20/30/40 yards of territory, and just allows the opposition vital seconds to reset... I think he's lacking belief, or physically he's lost something. I don't know.

For me, the way I'd envisage Dier (or whoever) dropping inbetween the centre backs to facilitate movement out from the back is that they should be acting in tandem as a pendulum. If Vertonghen is the spare man and gets the ball and can take it forward to build an attack, then Dier sweeps across left to cover as does Alderweireld so you still have two centre backs in position. And mirrored if the outball is on the right. I don't think it's a massive risk and you are leaving gaping holes. Alderweireld tries to but doesn't always find the pass. It's just another level of fluidity, seamlessness, and understanding to get to.

Getting off topic but in general I think we, and most other teams could be bolder in playing out from the back. One of my other pet hates is the centre midfielder picking it up off the centre backs toes. I think you should get away from them and allow the CB to pick the pass, I class it as 'inefficient' that when the opposition has dropped off 20 or 30 yards that you have a central midfielder coming and taking the ball and having another player goal side of a whole defensive structure. The centre back should go forward, commit the opposition and then play the pass. It might, just might, aid breaking down stubborn deep defences with a bit more initial bravery and defenders who are prepared to take the initial phases of possession and do something positive.

I know it's easy to say all this and I'm sat under no pressure in a stand or an armchair, but I do think there's scope to be braver. Too many players, including Vertonghen, who's default is the comfy option.

I thought about sending you a PM to tell you how much this post impressed me but I might as well do it publicly. Outstanding stuff.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

but I do think there's scope to be braver. Too many players, including Vertonghen, who's default is the comfy option.

. I'm not making a case against it, just wondering whether it's Vertonghen or Pochettino.

Here we have arrived at the very core of what is starting to become the issue for me with this season's team. I think we are too cautious, too careful, taking on too little risk. Yes, bravery! That's what I feel is lacking in everything we have done this season. I do think we can probably pin that on Pochettino. He has developed a too cautious system for this season. And I really don't like it.

 

[mpickard2087]

I wholeheartedly agree. I'm not making a case against it, just wondering whether it's Vertonghen or Pochettino. As you say, Dier's application should facilitate Vertonghen or Alderweireld moving forward with the ball and (as we see already with Stones being encouraged to do at Barca) and is a another way to pull obdurate bus parkers around - so I'm with you completely in theory, I just wonder if this is something Vertonghen is deciding off his own back or if Poch has reigned him in. I don't remember his CB's being encouraged to surge forward at Southapmton either.

You do see Alderweireld occasionally (and Vertonghen very occasionally) do it, but it's pretty rare these days.


As for Lloris, I was a very minority voice on here a couple of weeks backs making case for Vorm keeping his place for at least a couple more games - I thought he was excellent the the games he played and swept out brilliantly against Palace )or was it Liverpool ? or both ?)

Firstly before I jump off the deep end, I see Alderwiereld prepared to take the initiative, so he's prepared to play what he sees in front of him without fear of rebuke. I'd like to see Vertonghen doing the same, whilst Toby has his long raking pass and is no way an absolute dunce technically, I think Jan at his best is the silkier, and maybe better option, to travel out of defence with the ball.

I think some may be tactical, and that he's told to play it safe. Some of it I think could probably be a lack of understanding... This is going to sound breathtakingly cheeky as a humble fan passing judgement on football managers, but I think a vast number of coaches just lazily copy what's in vogue, which has been possession/pressing/Barca/Guardiola and just try and apply it in basic theory, without the appreciation and understanding of some of the principles behind it such as positional play and the concepts as to how you move the ball about the pitch. So you get pale, average imitations across all leagues, and, though it is a hard task I admit to breakdown organised defences, why you see so many teams struggle when teams sit deep because they're too predictable and 'by the book'.

Now Poch for example I think obviously knows his shit when it comes to drilling players with the pressing side of things (current troubles aside...), he has some good ideas about how you attack as a team and I like we try to play positively always, but when it comes to moving the ball about and drilling the little details into players and the possibilities of how each position can use the ball and where they can move to on the pitch, well there's improvement to be had, in my opinion. People may think I'm setting impossibly high standards and disagree, fair enough feel free to. Aim high and all that.


Can anyone tell I'm a bit bored this Friday afternoon/evening?.....

 

[mpickard2087]

Here we have arrived at the very core of what is starting to become the issue for me with this season's team. I think we are too cautious, too careful, taking on too little risk. Yes, bravery! That's what I feel is lacking in everything we have done this season. I do think we can probably pin that on Pochettino. He has developed a too cautious system for this season. And I really don't like it.

Agreed, see above. In general I want to see better coaching/tactical instruction across football (obviously we're taking an English/British-centric focus here) encouraging braver, more nuanced play.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Agreed, see above. In general I want to see better coaching/tactical instruction across football (obviously we're taking an English/British-centric focus here) encouraging braver, more nuanced play.

Especially for Vertonghen, I think it's all very sad, actually. We KNOW he is a goal threat. Just last season he scored a goal going form his own half (incorrectly judged "offside"). I was onboard with pairing Dier and Wanyama from the start exactly because, as you have written about too, it could mean that Vertonghen could have more creative freedom. When that is not happening, I get a bit grumpy .

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Here we have arrived at the very core of what is starting to become the issue for me with this season's team. I think we are too cautious, too careful, taking on too little risk. Yes, bravery! That's what I feel is lacking in everything we have done this season. I do think we can probably pin that on Pochettino. He has developed a too cautious system for this season. And I really don't like it.

I think this is something both @mpickard2087 and I were a minority voice in last season. I think Pochettino made risk averse personnel choices to compensate for not teaching more ambitious players to be more defensively diligent.

I think rather than work hard improving and developing the defensive aspect with Bentaleb, who imo is a better footballer in terms of tempo and ambition than Dembele, or playing Winks next to Wanyama this season, he has preferred the belt and braces.

Now many will point to our results last season and say these choices were valid, and they will have a strong case, some games it definitely paid a dividend, and compensated for a careless front 4 and attacking fb's, but I think sometimes I think it was a bit lazy tactically and there was room for a more ambitious approach, I think it would have been a defensive strength as well as an offensive one at times because there were so many lost points through our cm's stopping showing and getting on the ball or being able to capitalise on sections of games when we were in counter attack mode, we'd also have the option in games we need to protect of bringing Dembele or Dier in or even moving Dembele up into the AM zone.

 

[alfie103]

I find the Vertonghen is shit and Alderweireld is perfect tendency that so many posters allude to after this match really strange.
Alderweirelds goals was executed perfectly, and Vertonghen could have handled the first Monaco goal better. However, he wasn't solely at fault for the first goal, at least 3 other players must split the blame. It was an objective defensive error from Vertonghen.
Those two moments aside, both CB performed more or less to the same degree, both nailing some decisions. I see a few posters saying that Vertonghen can't defend, which is the purest shit from the bull that I've ever seen. But both can do far better than yesterday, too. I'd give them both a 6.5 for their actual defensive contribution.

He certainly wasn't the only one at fault for the first goal but his 'attempt' at a header for the second goal was pure cowardice and frankly he doesn't seem like he wants to head the ball, a basic thing for a centre back. He isn't quick, His reading of the game is average, he isn't brave nor good in the air. I don't see what qualities he has to be so highly rated here.