Ratings vs Palace

[CowInAComa]

Who is complaining about Dier?

They're on windup.

 

[slartibartfast]

Just chipping in on breaking teams down bit.
Agree we don't make great decisions in final 3rd but for me, when they're sitting deep, we just don't shoot enough. We're trying to tippy toe through a goal area with 18 players in it and walk it in.
Watch Lampards goals and 95% (not literally) were blasted into a packed area, took 3 bloody deflections and the 5% that never went in fell at someones feet for a tap in.
As the old saying goes 'if you dont shoot you don't score.'
That said I think we're getting better on that front, see how many shots we had Sun?
It's just knowing when to do it and when not to.

 

[dudu]

Who is complaining about Dier?

They're on windup.

No one is complaining about him specifically to be fair - more that his inclusion in the side is hindering our shape and ability to adequately attack.

 

[Shadydan]

Think our lack of attack from our full backs is the next area that needs addressing.

Think that was to counter the pace of Bolasie and Zaha and the threat of a counter attack rather than our full backs choosing not to maurude up the pitch.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

No, but there has to be a transition between the two and right now - while a little bit cautious i also think we are making the best out of an awkward situation having not so many CM's available to play.

And to be fair to Dier - he is improving with each game (in my opinion)

He was lamented for for sticking to much to the right previously - he was his heat map from yesterday

View attachment 20255

And he was lamented for not being brave enough with his passing

well - he received the ball and passed it more times than any other player on our team yesterday and had the highest %age passing completion of any non defender that started yesterday

View attachment 20256

while he isnt the ultimate answer to our DM issue - he is improving and deserves a lot of credit for how hard he is working at making the best out of an awkward situation.

That passing stat really isn't impressive in a game like that. And his completion 85% isn't high for a guy who's passing is utterly safe and perfunctory.

If you compare how much he received the ball and passed against how much our CM's did in the two games against Palace last season. In the away game where we actually had marginally less possession than we did yesterday we had Dembele and Stambouli (hardly as dynamic and pass efficient as Mason Nand Bentaleb usually) making 83 (90%) and 69 (87%) passes respectively. The home game at WHL Bentaleb made 85 passes (91% completion), Mason 70 (*0%).

Alli's stats were even less impressive, 50 passes with 80% and this is why I made a point of saying I wasn't very impressed with that CM pairing, not just Dier and why I was saying we needed someone like Carroll in there to at least balance out the effect of Dier's very limited offensive game.

Personally, I don't think Palace were as good yesterday in either of the games we played them last year. They were less defensively well organised, as I said in my original ratings post, they seemed like a team who had started to believe their own hype a little bit and weren't doing some of the basics very well at all, and this was reflected partly by Pardew taking Zaha of at half time and publicly admonishing him for forgetting to do the work without the ball that he was required to do.

 

[CowInAComa]

No one is complaining about him specifically to be fair - more that his inclusion in the side is hindering our shape and ability to adequately attack.

A load of bollocks then

 

[Shadydan]

No one is complaining about him specifically to be fair - more that his inclusion in the side is hindering our shape and ability to adequately attack.

Last year people were complaining that we're letting in too many goals and that the defence needs protecting, now we have that people are complaining that a DMF is hindering our shape and we don't attack properly

SC Logic

 

[dudu]

That passing stat really isn't impressive in a game like that. And his completion 85% isn't high for a guy who's passing is utterly safe and perfunctory.

If you compare how much he received the ball and passed against how much our CM's did in the two games against Palace last season. In the away game where we actually had marginally less possession than we did yesterday we had Dembele and Stambouli (hardly as dynamic and pass efficient as Mason Nand Bentaleb usually) making 83 (90%) and 69 (87%) passes respectively. The home game at WHL Bentaleb made 85 passes (91% completion), Mason 70 (*0%).

Alli's stats were even less impressive, 50 passes with 80% and this is why I made a point of saying I wasn't very impressed with that CM pairing, not just Dier and why I was saying we needed someone like Carroll in there to at least balance out the effect of Dier's very limited offensive game.

Personally, I don't think Palace were as good yesterday in either of the games we played them last year. They were less defensively well organised, as I said in my original ratings post, they seemed like a team who had started to believe their own hype a little bit and weren't doing some of the basics very well at all, and this was reflected partly by Pardew taking Zaha of at half time and publicly admonishing him for forgetting to do the work without the ball that he was required to do.

My point was there is improvement there - was was less right centric and actually did move the ball forward to good effect at times - 5 out of 6 long balls hitting there mark - 4 of them played out to the left wing.

He Plays 65 odd % of his passes forward - a good 10% more on average more than Moussa and in line with others playing in his position.

He is improving in my opinion and i cant help but be impressed regardless of how team x or y seems to always be on an off day when he has had his good performances.

 

[nssmuckers]

Last year people were complaining that we're letting in too many goals and that the defence needs protecting, now we have that people are complaining that a DMF is hindering our shape and we don't attack properly

SC Logic

Listen.

All we want is to see our team playing swashbuckling attacking flair football preferably with a hint of naivete, while also remaining incredibly pragmatic and disciplined at the back with a central midfield pairing that only passes forward while shielding the back four and making runs into the box to add goals and covering two dozen kilometers of ground each match, all culminating in a top-four finish that's achieved with spending the 6th most on player wages lest we be perceived to have bought success, before moving into a state-of-the-art yet old-fashioned and intimate new stadium.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Last year people were complaining that we're letting in too many goals and that the defence needs protecting, now we have that people are complaining that a DMF is hindering our shape and we don't attack properly

SC Logic

It about finding a balance between the two. And as I have said all through the summer when we were linked with a plethora of CM's, we defend as a team and if we improve that collective aspect then the need for a more one dimensional DM would be negated IMO. I think we have two very talented, hard working footballing CM's who with not too much coaching could offer the best of all worlds.

 

[dudu]

It about finding a balance between the two. And as I have said all through the summer when we were linked with a plethora of CM's, we defend as a team and if we improve that collective aspect then the need for a more one dimensional DM would be negated IMO. I think we have two very talented, hard working footballing CM's who with not too much coaching could offer the best of all worlds.

I absolutely don't disagree - but...... they had a year last year and perhaps, didnt get the defensive side to their game down entirely.

Perhaps, give Dier just a quarter of that before writing off his ability to learn and progress. He might just surprise us all.

 

[raggy]

It about finding a balance between the two. And as I have said all through the summer when we were linked with a plethora of CM's, we defend as a team and if we improve that collective aspect then the need for a more one dimensional DM would be negated IMO. I think we have two very talented, hard working footballing CM's who with not too much coaching could offer the best of all worlds.

They are all too offensive. I don't see how this is even debatable, we gave Nabil and Mason an entire season together and we ended the season with a defensive record in line with the teams in the relegation zone. How about we give Dier a chance to prove he can grow into having a better balance himself as he gets more comfortable in the position?

Dier has shown nothing but improvement every single game. I think you are just so desperate for it to be an academy graduate that fixes the problem that you are often blinded from the actual solution.

 

[Mr Pink]

And we must remember that Kane's/Eriksen's form and tendency to get us last minute winners contributed massively to our final league position and points tally. Stating the obvious but relevant.

I wouldn't say the Bentaleb/Mason partnership was instrumental in getting us fifth. Yes they contributed of course, but other factors were more significant - as mentioned above.

Whilst our attacking play is very much a work in progress there's no doubt we've improved markedly defensively. The new CB partnership is working well, but the protection Dier is offering is just as critical IMO.

Whilst he's a bit limited on the ball I think the trade off is most definitely worth it at this stage. Defensive solidity is key to building a good side and we're looking good thus far in this respect. On the ball we'll get better, that was evident yesterday where there was more tempo and urgency with our passing and movement despite the final ball/decision being off on quite a few occasions.

If we stay strong defensively whilst improving on the ball we're definitely going to be on the right track which obviously bodes well for the future.

I really don't see how anyone can argue that the current balance is worse than last season when you consider the goals we conceded and how many get out of free jail cards we used to bail us out late on in games - simply unsustainable.

 

[ebzrascal]

Great: Hugo, Son, Vertonghen, Eriksen
Good: Lamela, Alli, Dier, Alderweireld, Poch
Meh: Davies, Walker, Kane, Chadli

No one deserved a Meh mate they played well so give them credit

 

[heelspurs]

It's not at all. Playing two young, inexperienced footballing CMs, neither of which are defensively minded, not only makes your team vulnerable through the middle, it curbs the attacking intent of those CMs, rendering them inadequate in defense and below their current ability in attack, as we saw when Mason and Bentaleb played together last season.

Playing a defensively sound "DM" next one of these CMs, allows the CM get forward and play to their attacking potential, whilst they are learning the defensive side during the game (in addition to, not an alternative to coaching/training) via instruction from their colleagues, without having to constantly cover their CM partner, without knowing how and when to.

I think Dier playing along side them is not only good for Mason, Bentaleb, Alli's and Carrol's ingame development but good for Dier's development too, as if he goes back to CB, he will be more aware of late runners into the box and better to instruct his CMs ahead of him.

I'm not sure that Dier is the ideal solution or candidate for the above, but with the transfer window closed, I think he is the best man for it in our current squad without weakening our CB partnership.

I also think, that even when/if our 2 "footballing" CMs are good enough defensively that we don't need a DM, there will be games against certain opposition when we do require a DM that can drop into defence and we can't just drop them into these games, they need a run of games against various opposition to learn the role first. I'm all for Dier playing this role right now and I think/hope it is with much more the future in mind (for the above reasons) than the temporary fix many fans think.

Ridiculous! Take your reasoned and balanced perspective and shove it. This is where the wildly emotional and firmly entrenched knee-jerk reaction comes to prosper. Don't you realize that you were to have an opinion of Dier early and dismiss any intervening/prospective evidence that may run counter to that opinion.

A counter attack opportunity where they were wide open is not exactly the norm though.

yeah but now that we actually have counter-attacking pace it is easily conceivable that it will occur with more frequency right?

 

[glospur]

They are all too offensive. I don't see how this is even debatable, we gave Nabil and Mason an entire season together and we ended the season with a defensive record in line with the teams in the relegation zone. How about we give Dier a chance to prove he can grow into having a better balance himself as he gets more comfortable in the position?

Dier has shown nothing but improvement every single game. I think you are just so desperate for it to be an academy graduate that fixes the problem that you are often blinded from the actual solution.

Absolutely. The fact he still advocates for Carroll and Veljkovic over Dier and Alli considering the way those players have performed this season and the fact the Carroll (who I actual really like) looked average against Qarabag and Veljkovic is only on the bench for the U/21's is indicative of this and quite frankly, absolutely ludicrous

I usually enjoy B-C's match write-ups but his analysis of Dier and Alli in this thread has been entirely glib, at times specious and absolutely dripping with bias against those two players.

 

[sloth]

There were plenty of positives for sure, but they were more about endeavour than outright quality really. Lets be clear about this, for 80 minutes of that game Palace were fucking woeful. They played like a team who weren't sure exactly what they should be doing, a team who have skanked a couple of results and had forgotten the basics that earned them those skankings and even then, they ended up a post and a world class save away from doing what all our huffing and puffing never look close to doing for a long time. We dominated that game, but that was as much part of Palace's game plan as it was ours and I'd be very careful about drawing too many conclusions from a game like that.

I really didn't enjoy that CM2 pairing at all. Both players were guilty of avoiding taking the ball from defenders desperately looking for an out ball, which resulted in aimless long humps out of defence. Dier was harassed into giving the ball away or making hospital passes on several occasions and just doesn't have that 360 degree picture that a CM must have, instead seeing the game in tunnels that he faces. Alli is just a kid, and for a 19yo having his first games in the EPL is doing OK, but his game lacked zip and vim and with these two there was no tempo or feeling of business or urgency. It's very telling that in a game where we only had 50% of the ball (Everton) we actually completed more successful passes (372/440), and created more clear cut chances, than in the game today where we had 57% (and until the last 10 minutes it was up in the 60's) but still only completed 357/436 attempted. The wastage was very firmly in midfield where Alli gave the ball away 28% of the time, Dier a less troubling 15% but his passing is even more perfunctory.

I really don't understand why someone like Tom Carroll wouldn't be considered for a game like this, he's a dynamo who's energy is better that Alli's in CM and his passing and vision and ability to set a tempo is much better. It's such a shame Pochettino won't adjust to a 433, because you could have played Alli and Carroll either side of Dier, taking the onus of Dier to be more pro-active, letting him concentrate on that one dimensional thing he does with Carroll dictating the play and Alli bombing up and down as and when required supporting a slightly more varied attacking three of Lamela, Son & Kane.

That was a real Lamela of an analysis BC; I can see the vision, there's definitely something which makes you sit up and take notice too, but a tendency to dwell too long in the wrong places, and an inability to adapt the way you want to play to the way it actually is. Anyway, having stretched that analogy to breaking point, here's what I think.

Crystal Palace play a certain way, they like to absorb pressure, and then counter-attack, particularly down the flanks. We had a tactic to contain that, and in fact we did. We pressed and tackled well, but we didn't over-commit. We always had a spare CM to help out our full back:

Sako, in fact, praised our tactical set-up:

"It was hard to get them on one-v-one situations, because their midfielders always came across to help the full-back and that made it tough to take the full-back on," Sako added, when discussing the reasons why Spurs were such tough opposition."

Read more at http://www.cpfc.co.uk/news/article/...-to-deny-him-2701587.aspx#B6kXBhXu2iv2W0UU.99

You can disagree with the tactic sure, but it seems that was what the tactic was. And it worked as we pretty much dominated from start to finish, kept another clean sheet, scored up the other end and should have scored more.

In terms of whether Palace were woeful, check out the matches against City (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/95...ague-2015-2016-Crystal-Palace-Manchester-City) and Chelsea (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/959762/MatchReport), and spot the difference to how we played against them (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/95...ier-League-2015-2016-Tottenham-Crystal-Palace).

The most noticeable difference to me is the amount of tackles we made 32, compared to Chelsea's 16, and City's 17, yet our possession stats and pass completion were pretty identical to City's, but slightly worse than Chelsea's who were presumably up against the shelling of Palace as they chased the game?

It looks to me they tried to play the way they always do against stronger teams and simply came unstuck. Perhaps this is because we had a tactic for counter-acting them?

Where I kind of agree with you is that I would have preferred to see Carrol in CM, but then he would have started at the expense of Lamela, not Alli, something I know you'd have been even more unhappy about. In the end I'm glad that didn't happen as Lamela is getting some momentum now, he seemed to play well against Palace, and if anyone is going to be dropped to accommodate Eriksen's return it will probably be Chadli.

I thought Dier played very well, and I have to say, unfortunately I have no faith in your analysis when it comes to players you particularly like or don't like. On the other hand if it's someone you've yet to make your mind up about then I think you're excellent. In my opinion you'd make a great post-match analyst for any team except ours.

 

[Mr Pink]

That was a real Lamela of an analysis BC; I can see the vision, there's definitely something which makes you sit up and take notice too, but a tendency to dwell too long in the wrong places, and an inability to adapt the way you want to play to the way it actually is. Anyway, having stretched that analogy to breaking point, here's what I think.

Crystal Palace play a certain way, they like to absorb pressure, and then counter-attack, particularly down the flanks. We had a tactic to contain that, and in fact we did. We pressed and tackled well, but we didn't over-commit. We always had a spare CM to help out our full back:

Sako, in fact, praised our tactical set-up:

"It was hard to get them on one-v-one situations, because their midfielders always came across to help the full-back and that made it tough to take the full-back on," Sako added, when discussing the reasons why Spurs were such tough opposition."

Read more at http://www.cpfc.co.uk/news/article/...-to-deny-him-2701587.aspx#B6kXBhXu2iv2W0UU.99

You can disagree with the tactic sure, but it seems that was what the tactic was. And it worked as we pretty much dominated from start to finish, kept another clean sheet, scored up the other end and should have scored more.

In terms of whether Palace were woeful, check out the matches against City (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/95...ague-2015-2016-Crystal-Palace-Manchester-City) and Chelsea (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/959762/MatchReport), and spot the difference to how we played against them (http://www.whoscored.com/Matches/95...ier-League-2015-2016-Tottenham-Crystal-Palace).

The most noticeable difference to me is the amount of tackles we made 32, compared to Chelsea's 16, and City's 17, yet our possession stats and pass completion were pretty identical to City's, but slightly worse than Chelsea's who were presumably up against the shelling of Palace as they chased the game?

It looks to me they tried to play the way they always do against stronger teams and simply came unstuck. Perhaps this is because we had a tactic for counter-acting them?

Where I kind of agree with you is that I would have preferred to see Carrol in CM, but then he would have started at the expense of Lamela, not Alli, something I know you'd have been even more unhappy about. In the end I'm glad that didn't happen as Lamela is getting some momentum now, he seemed to play well against Palace, and if anyone is going to be dropped to accommodate Eriksen's return it will probably be Chadli.

I thought Dier played very well, and have I havve to say, unfortunately I have no faith in your analysis when it comes to players you particularly like or don't like. OOn the other hand if it's someone you've yet to make your mind up about then I think you're excellent. In my opinion you'd make a great post-match analyst for any team except ours.

Some nice finds there mate, think you've nailed that analysis.

 

[Mr Pink]

This is a list from 365 on the top teens in the League thus far....Martial topping the list, Alli coming in second.

But this neutral analysis of Alli's contribution from 365 makes nice reading:

I’ve just looked down this list and realised that seven of them qualify to play for England, which means that we are definitely going to win World Cup 2022, just so long as Qatar suffers an extraordinary cold snap.

The highest-placed Englishman is Alli, who has taken to Premier League life with astonishing ease following his move from MK Dons this summer. After beginning the first three league games on the Tottenham bench, Pochettino started the 19-year-old against Sunderland, Qarabag and Crystal Palace. Cue their first three wins of the season.

Against Palace on Sunday, Alli was exceptional. Playing in a reserved role behind Nacer Chadli, Heung-Min Son and Erik Lamela, he still managed to have four shots and create two chances, also making more passes in the opposition half than any other Spurs player. More interceptions than any of his team-mates and 13 more touches of the ball than any other player on the pitch indicates the his confidence; this is no shrinking violet.

‘I think Alli in pre-season started to show that he can play like an experienced player,’ said Pochettino after the Europa League victory over Qarabag, and he reinforced that praise on Sunday. “He showed personality and quality. He is a player who can play in the first team.”

http://www.football365.com/news/football365s-top-ten-premier-league-teenagers

 

[dudu]

They are all too offensive. I don't see how this is even debatable, we gave Nabil and Mason an entire season together and we ended the season with a defensive record in line with the teams in the relegation zone. How about we give Dier a chance to prove he can grow into having a better balance himself as he gets more comfortable in the position?

Dier has shown nothing but improvement every single game. I think you are just so desperate for it to be an academy graduate that fixes the problem that you are often blinded from the actual solution.

its like my thoughts are are your thoughts. Heart xxx