Ratings vs Southampton

[THX2208]

For me it was between Kyle & Hugo, Kyle just shades it for me

 

[sloth]

I think the result proves just one thing. The so called experts on here and in the stands really have no clue whatsoever. And I'll continue to hammer that point.

Hudd in Parker out, Ade in Defoe out, Bale left, right, middle centre, Naughton in Walker out, BAE in Naughton out, Daws in Caulker out, Caulker in Daws out, 4-3-3 in, 4-2-3-1 out, 4-4-2 out 4-5-1 in, Verts left, verts centre, Carroll in Hudd out, Dombaxe in, Holtby in, Perrett in, Holtby out, Pritchard in, Dempsey in Sig out, Sig in Dempsey out.

I've probably forgotten quite a few but you get my drift I hope (actually I doubt that very much).

Ok the point I am trying to prove is that circumstances change, form changes and matches change. To believe there is one perfect scenario is both short sighted and naive and only reaffirms the place on their sofa. Yes AVB probably got it wrong but it's only in hindsight that we appreciate this. AVB could probably pick exactly the same set up and win convincingly, just as he could have lost with the same choices. I don't necessarily believe slight changes would have given us an auto win.

There is a total lack of understanding sometimes and an element of people that think just because they kicked a ball once in a park that they are better qualified.

All in all we're having a good season and particularly when we are competing with teams that are either established top four teams (I'm talking several years) or those that can spend four times the amount we can. If anything I think both Harry and AVB have overachieved.

I said right at the start of the season that AVB replaced our flair open play with a more rigid (not in the formation sense) resilient ethos. That (and having a world class player in Bale) has really helped us get results when we either play poorley or leave it late. I also wouldn't underestimate fitness in our late turn around either.

Our tippy tappy football which so many groan at could also help tire out the opposition (perhaps through boredom) which we exploit later in the match. I remember reading a report that said AVB switched the training round so that we did the complex tasks at the end to help improve our concentration.

Ultimately I wouldn't say it is only just down to luck and Mr Bale as to why we are in this position. Obviously it plays a massive part but I don't think we would be relegated without Bale which seems to be the impression I get on here sometimes.

Wow, you've massacred a whole army of straw men there mate. Well done you!!

It worked when we did it a few years ago with Modric and him. Also it's like complaining if he hadn't done that we weren't attacking enough. We need to win the rest of the games and he's trying to make that happen.

Hmmm indeed

Yes AVB's trying to win the remaining games...

442 can work well, it could even occasionally work well with that line-up, but you're reliant on the opponents not putting up a fight and/or being rubbish on the ball when they've got it and/or having a bad day. Put simply, you're asking to be pressed and harried, and if you can't keep the ball, then you're really going to struggle to win it back. Prior to the game the argument was all about whether we could afford to play Hudd in part of a three, most of us thought it would be a risk, many thought it was untenable, but to put him in a two, and to have Bale, Dempsey and Defoe in your attacking five, well, you;re asking for trouble and in all likelihood you'll end up with the kind of game we ended up with.

To put it in context we had only six shots, with a single one on target, miles below our average home and away, this against a bottom half team at our place. If they'd had a player who could finish like Bale they'd have been out of sight. If we want to finish in the top four we'll have to do something different in the remaining matches.

 

[Nocando]

Wow, you've massacred a whole army of straw men there mate. Well done you!!



Hmmm indeed

Yes AVB's trying to win the remaining games...

442 can work well, it could even occasionally work well with that line-up, but you're reliant on the opponents not putting up a fight and/or being rubbish on the ball when they've got it and/or having a bad day. Put simply, you're asking to be pressed and harried, and if you can't keep the ball, then you're really going to struggle to win it back. Prior to the game the argument was all about whether we could afford to play Hudd in part of a three, most of us thought it would be a risk, many thought it was untenable, but to put him in a two, and to have Bale, Dempsey and Defoe in your attacking five, well, you;re asking for trouble and in all likelihood you'll end up with the kind of game we ended up with.

To put it in context we had only six shots, with a single one on target, miles below our average home and away, this against a bottom half team at our place. If they'd had a player who could finish like Bale they'd have been out of sight. If we want to finish in the top four we'll have to do something different in the remaining matches.

Dont be so hard on yourself dude.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think the result proves just one thing. The so called experts on here and in the stands really have no clue whatsoever. And I'll continue to hammer that point.

Hudd in Parker out, Ade in Defoe out, Bale left, right, middle centre, Naughton in Walker out, BAE in Naughton out, Daws in Caulker out, Caulker in Daws out, 4-3-3 in, 4-2-3-1 out, 4-4-2 out 4-5-1 in, Verts left, verts centre, Carroll in Hudd out, Dombaxe in, Holtby in, Perrett in, Holtby out, Pritchard in, Dempsey in Sig out, Sig in Dempsey out.

I've probably forgotten quite a few but you get my drift I hope (actually I doubt that very much).

Ok the point I am trying to prove is that circumstances change, form changes and matches change. To believe there is one perfect scenario is both short sighted and naive and only reaffirms the place on their sofa. Yes AVB probably got it wrong but it's only in hindsight that we appreciate this. AVB could probably pick exactly the same set up and win convincingly, just as he could have lost with the same choices. I don't necessarily believe slight changes would have given us an auto win.

There is a total lack of understanding sometimes and an element of people that think just because they kicked a ball once in a park that they are better qualified.

All in all we're having a good season and particularly when we are competing with teams that are either established top four teams (I'm talking several years) or those that can spend four times the amount we can. If anything I think both Harry and AVB have overachieved.

I said right at the start of the season that AVB replaced our flair open play with a more rigid (not in the formation sense) resilient ethos. That (and having a world class player in Bale) has really helped us get results when we either play poorley or leave it late. I also wouldn't underestimate fitness in our late turn around either.

Our tippy tappy football which so many groan at could also help tire out the opposition (perhaps through boredom) which we exploit later in the match. I remember reading a report that said AVB switched the training round so that we did the complex tasks at the end to help improve our concentration.

Ultimately I wouldn't say it is only just down to luck and Mr Bale as to why we are in this position. Obviously it plays a massive part but I don't think we would be relegated without Bale which seems to be the impression I get on here sometimes.

What if you say it before the game ?

And there is a quantum difference between being relegated and being 4th/5th. And I think any of us with a brain (even those of us that have kicked a ball before and therefore think we are qualified) would accept that without Gareth Bale we'd be nowhere near 4th/5th place. As of Feb 19th Bale's goals alone had made a 13 point difference. I've not counted since but you can do the maths.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/one-man-team-s-we-are-not-alone.95025/

 

[Legend10]

Bale plays for spurs if he wins points for us that is what he's paid to do in the same way RVP s for UTD or Messi is for Barca! Great players win games never be embarrassed about having one!

Bale has won us as many points since Christmas as the officials ave won arsenal. Bale has been our best player and the officials have been arsenals best player.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Stat Boys

Huddlestone made a pretty measly 39 (83% completion) passes yesterday. 53% (21) of his passes went backwards. 30% of all his passes went to the CB's.

Parker (60 mins) v ManC 41 (89%). 31% backwards. 21% to the CB's.

I think comparing ManC v Southampton is more than fair to Hudd.

Stat Phobes

If you watch Sky FF. After we score there is a passage of play where we work the ball out right with Adebayor. It's 56 min on the Sky recording counter (I assume it;s the same for any of us who have Sky+'d it). Watch what Hudd does. Adebayor, Holtby and Walker are trying to retain the ball, Hudd, having been originally over on the left just stops, stands still and watches as his team mates are getting hemmed in. He eventually decides perhaps they need their metronome and shuffle tentatively towrds them, all to late.

This is the last example (and freshest in my memory) of many similar in the game, where Hudd could continually be found standing still, walking or hiding.

Personally, if it's a straight choice, I'll take a pirouetting Parker all day, every day.

 

[Legend10]

What if you say it before the game ?

And there is a quantum difference between being relegated and being 4th/5th. And I think any of us with a brain (even those of us that have kicked a ball before and therefore think we are qualified) would accept that without Gareth Bale we'd be nowhere near 4th/5th place. As of Feb 19th Bale's goals alone had made a 13 point difference. I've not counted since but you can do the maths.


http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/one-man-team-s-we-are-not-alone.95025/

And the officials ave won arsenal how any points and cost us how many?

 

[Legend10]

Football isn't a game of stats is a game of fluid motion that is immeasurable unlike a baseball pitcher!

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And the officials ave won arsenal how any points and cost us how many?

I think that's a pretty lame argument frankly. I think over the season we've had breaks and knocks from refs, as have Arsenal.

If you want to analyse every game for both clubs and weigh it up properly, figure out what the actual cost/gain has been, be my guest. But my guess is, you haven't got the first idea as to the reality of that outcome.

But I can guarantee you that without Bale we would be worse off.

 

[Legend10]

I think that's a pretty lame argument frankly. I think over the season we've had breaks and knocks from refs, as have Arsenal.

If you want to analyse every game for both clubs and weigh it up properly, figure out what the actual cost/gain has been, be my guest. But my guess is, you haven't got the first idea as to the reality of that outcome.

But I can guarantee you that without Bale we would be worse off.

I think you haven't got the first idea about anything to do with football but so what?

Officials decide many points over a season and I'm pretty sure we haven't had many breaks, arsenal on the other hand to me seem to ave benefitted from an awful lot f decsions!

Maybe you would like to list where we have benefited because I sure as hell can't remember much?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Football isn't a game of stats is a game of fluid motion that is immeasurable unlike a baseball pitcher!

Ignore the stats then, and just read the paragraph headed "Stat Phobes". I thought I'd made it easy for the people who are scared of facts.

 

[Legend10]

Ignore the stats then, and just read the paragraph headed "Stat Phobes". I thought I'd made it easy for the people who are scared of facts.

You read them! I'll watch the game!

 

[Gilzeanking]

Oh please . It isn't hard . If you don't believe in stats , just ignore the stats quoted in some posts .

Noone is saying stats are anything other than an aid to analysis . Yes we all have eyes .

Noone is now allowed to mention stats on here without being buried under a ton of sheer venom . This pointless aggressive censorship has resulted in a general fear of ever bringing them up .

Poor old BC is so aware of this malicious censorship...he even put a two tier response above 'Stats phobes and stats fans'...and whaddyaknow ....he still gets attacked for even mentioning stats .

I think its time we all stood up to this bullying bullshit myself .

 

[sloth]

Football isn't a game of stats is a game of fluid motion that is immeasurable unlike a baseball pitcher!

You're dead wrong their mate, and I should know!!! Agree that it's different to Baseball though, and made the same point when criticising the Moneyball approach to Football.

[Edit] Actually scratch that, I hate it when people try and claim some superior or secret knowledge because it's open to abuse (it doesn't let the other person argue back, so I could just make stuff up, for instance...). What I would say is that there is a quantitative approach you can take to modelling a football match as a whole in-running, which will allow you to fairly accurately calculate the number of goals to be scored and which side is going to score them from which the outcome probabilities can be derived. That's of course not the same as saying this player or that player has been (in)effective.

I guess what I'm saying is don't just dismiss the use of stats, even by amateurs like us. They can reveal stuff hidden to human eyes, influenced as we are by a plethora of biases (I'd hazard that your referee assertion is one of them!!). They can also be misused and misappropriated by exactly the same biases, for example if you find a stat which says what you already think you're far less likely to scrutinise/question it than if it seems to say the opposite of what you believe. Basically there's no superior method, they all have benefits and flaws, and probably the best we can do it argue it all out on here, and the ideas that in the end survive are probably closest to the 'truth', whatever that means!

 

[double0]

We should not be ashamed or made to feel shamed by having a player like G Bale at Spurs, we've developed Bale as a player so we can enjoy his new level.

What we need is for more players to step up their level also add much needed quality to go with Bale.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

We should not be ashamed or made to feel shamed by having a player like G Bale at Spurs, we've developed Bale as a player so we can enjoy his new level.

What we need is for more players to step up their level also add much needed quality to go with Bale.

I'm not ashamed of having Bale, I'm ashamed (on their behalf) of what some of the other cretins get up to.

 

[sbrustad]

What if you say it before the game ?

And there is a quantum difference between being relegated and being 4th/5th. And I think any of us with a brain (even those of us that have kicked a ball before and therefore think we are qualified) would accept that without Gareth Bale we'd be nowhere near 4th/5th place. As of Feb 19th Bale's goals alone had made a 13 point difference. I've not counted since but you can do the maths.

http://www.spurscommunity.co.uk/index.php?threads/one-man-team-s-we-are-not-alone.95025/

Here are some stats from our friends over at Opta Sports. I don't really like the "take away the goals"- method of quantifying a players worth to his team.

OptaJoe ‏@OptaJoe

4 May​

22 - Gareth Bale's goals have won 22 points this season in the Premier League, only Robin van Persie's have won more (26). Influence.

...also ..

OptaJoe ‏@OptaJoe

4 May​

8 - Gareth Bale has scored more winning goals than any other player in the Premier League this season. Star.

 

[Spurz]

Theres solid analysis here re each player's performance . Indescribably bad I'd say overall . Southampton were robbed..2 one on ones and hit the post , they can't believe it poor sods .

Moving the discussion along , noone is saying we looked anything other that 'tired' or 'lethargic' ..noone here or the commentators .

So 2 options . If its tiredness ,why is this affecting us so much and rarely our opposition ? Since Walker's pass to Lloris vs Liverpool we've made every opposition look great (eg Basle looked like Barca vs us...vs Chelski they looked like Basle) . Is there something particularly bad about our physical match preparation...diets ?, overtraining ?

No , very unlikely . This brings us on to the lethargy . Why would our players , hanging on to a CL dream by our fingernails, decide to put their feet up for this match ?

For me , this is a motivation issue . AVB (4) simply didn't get the team up for the game . He's good at many bits of management..is player psychology his weak point . He lost the Chelsea dressing room (yes I know it is full of ****s) and I wonder if we aren't seeing a milder version of this area of management weakness. It may be that the Chelsea shock has meant that he is frightened of telling a lazy player exactly what he is and that lazy player goes on to think laziness is ok . Bale gets a winner so performance repeats in next game . If he doesn't get a rocket there is no downside for a lazy player taking it easy.

I'd half argue the opposite to AVB who says these late goals are good because the team learns to keeps trying . Me , I'd say that our shiftless team(most of them) are now not trying until the last 15 mins , gambling that a little bit of effort then will get a result . Where is AVB's imprint in all this ? We are a minimum effort outfit these days and it wasn't always so this season. We are going backwards not forwards , AVB doesn't seem to be able to arrest this .

As the Bale goal gif poster said , look at the 3 static witless idiots standing in a bunch as Bale moved in to score . Also for the split second of the gif all three seemed not to be celebrating the goal at all . Team spirit ?

I reckon AVB may be good with a carrott but poor with the stick . The commentator said at half time something along the lines of
'well AVB has half time to give the team a rocket' Ha ha AVB doesn't have that in his locker his very calmness and measured style is not the stuff to inspire/ frighten players out of lethargy . Maybe Freund is too much the player's buddy to tell them the truth , dunno , I'm speculating , but somethings not right re team motivation .Anyway the dreadful performance continued into the 2nd half unabated til the players decided to try in the last 10 mins .

We are just left with the desperate hope the players can self motivate for the Chelski game... great being a Spurs fan eh

We just might have to depend on that. I remember avb saying somewhere it should be motivation enough to the players to win the last few matches to reach the champions league or something along those lines. Obviously he doesn't feel the need for more motivation.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Theres solid analysis here re each player's performance . Indescribably bad I'd say overall . Southampton were robbed..2 one on ones and hit the post , they can't believe it poor sods .

Moving the discussion along , noone is saying we looked anything other that 'tired' or 'lethargic' ..noone here or the commentators .

So 2 options . If its tiredness ,why is this affecting us so much and rarely our opposition ? Since Walker's pass to Lloris vs Liverpool we've made every opposition look great (eg Basle looked like Barca vs us...vs Chelski they looked like Basle) . Is there something particularly bad about our physical match preparation...diets ?, overtraining ?

No , very unlikely . This brings us on to the lethargy . Why would our players , hanging on to a CL dream by our fingernails, decide to put their feet up for this match ?

For me , this is a motivation issue . AVB (4) simply didn't get the team up for the game . He's good at many bits of management..is player psychology his weak point . He lost the Chelsea dressing room (yes I know it is full of ****s) and I wonder if we aren't seeing a milder version of this area of management weakness. It may be that the Chelsea shock has meant that he is frightened of telling a lazy player exactly what he is and that lazy player goes on to think laziness is ok . Bale gets a winner so performance repeats in next game . If he doesn't get a rocket there is no downside for a lazy player taking it easy.

I'd half argue the opposite to AVB who says these late goals are good because the team learns to keeps trying . Me , I'd say that our shiftless team(most of them) are now not trying until the last 15 mins , gambling that a little bit of effort then will get a result . Where is AVB's imprint in all this ? We are a minimum effort outfit these days and it wasn't always so this season. We are going backwards not forwards , AVB doesn't seem to be able to arrest this .

As the Bale goal gif poster said , look at the 3 static witless idiots standing in a bunch as Bale moved in to score . Also for the split second of the gif all three seemed not to be celebrating the goal at all . Team spirit ?

I reckon AVB may be good with a carrott but poor with the stick . The commentator said at half time something along the lines of
'well AVB has half time to give the team a rocket' Ha ha AVB doesn't have that in his locker his very calmness and measured style is not the stuff to inspire/ frighten players out of lethargy . Maybe Freund is too much the player's buddy to tell them the truth , dunno , I'm speculating , but somethings not right re team motivation .Anyway the dreadful performance continued into the 2nd half unabated til the players decided to try in the last 10 mins .

We are just left with the desperate hope the players can self motivate for the Chelski game... great being a Spurs fan eh

I'm reading the book about AVB now GK. I think the point about Carrot and stick is perhaps more relevant this season due to what happened last year. But, in general, the impression I get is that AVB does favour the carrot to the stick - a lot like Wenger for example - but that's not to say he isn't a strict disciplinarian (see Kaboul's quotes today in this forum), because he is.

He is rigorous in his preparation and his training methods have been praised at his clubs in Portugal and now at Spurs by various players.

I genuinely think the biggest problem we have is not work rate or laziness. I think the fact that we keep going and scoring late goals is evidence of this. For his system to be effective you need intelligent (even vaguely intelligent would do) movement. People like Defoe, Dempsey and Lennon are terrible at this. And now Hudd is in midfield we have no movement there either. At the back we have players like Walker and Dawson who have great attitudes but are poor readers of the game and are too easily flustered when on the ball.

I think the problem he has is the group of players he has here right now, IMO, is the stupidest (for want of a better term) bunch of players we've had collectively for a few years. There are no Modric's, VDV's, Berbatov's, Kanoute's, Carrick's, even Sheringham's, Klinsmann's etc.

I also think he has made some poor decisions in his team selection that are countering any coached improvement. I think his reliance on senior players he knows not to be good enough or to fit with his ethos (maybe influenced by what happened at Chelsea) has been his single biggest failing.

For me, the single most disappointing aspect of AVB's first season in charge is that he didn't do what he tried to do at Chelsea and phase out some senior players who are clearly not conducive to his methodology and bring in younger development squad players who have been well schooled already in the principals AVB himself believes in - high tempo, press, pass, move - who would have brought this vim and vigour to the team with very little sacrifice to ability (Dempsey, Hudd, Lennon e.g.)

Some of those players may not be world beaters either, but they would have been a better match for his system.

Some of this may be due to Levy (expectations) & Abramovich (treatment).

 

[Main Man]

We all know how poor we were on Saturday. The only 'real' positive was the fact we won, and a with a clean sheet also (somehow!?!?!).

Rather than list all the negatives (Dempsey and Defoe etc) we should all focus on the brief moments of positivity.

Bale was terrible but came up with a moment befitting the current 'best player in the world' so for me he deserves man of the match.

Lloris made some key saves and handled set pieces well (which bodes well for Stoke) so he deserves recognition, whilst Adebayor made a telling contribution when he came on. Brilliant flick for Demspey. We are a much better team with him upfront, and deep down every Spurs fan knows it.

Walker and Lennon linked up in a good 5 minute spell in the first half, which should have resulted in a booking for Shaw.

I thought Hudd started well but had no attacking options whatsoever which is why he reverted to being "a crab" - he is criticised far too easily.

Other than that... No. That is it. The fans were good when we scored.