Reasons for our defensive Improvement

[Bus-Conductor]

I dont get why every goal we concede has to be someones fault. It was a quality ball in from a world class player (when he's on his game) and it was one of those point blank saves that can be hard to read for a keeper. Let's just accept that we got done by a bit of quality and leave it at that.

Not every goal is massively someone's fault, but as you point out he is a world class player (Ozil) the last thing you do is allow him time and space to put a ball into your box. This was someone's fault, massively IMO.

Bournemouth (or was it Villa I can't remember) allowed Eriksen to do the same the week before and Kane scored.

 

[mpickard2087]

I dont get why every goal we concede has to be someones fault. It was a quality ball in from a world class player (when he's on his game) and it was one of those point blank shots that can be hard to read for a keeper. Let's just accept that we got done by a bit of quality and leave it at that.

Sometimes yes, and I think this was a goal where it was less obvious to apportion blame for letting the cross come in, but I think its probably fair to comment on it as it seems to be a bit of a running theme this season. As a team (and its not just the fullbacks) we are defending quite poorly the wide areas and have conceded a few goals from crosses. It's not just goals, there have been a couple of games (Stoke, Arsenal, Anderlecht off the top of my head) where the game has changed round when teams have gone wider and more direct and we've not adapted to it. The next thing for us to look to fix in my opinion.

Edit: Monaco as well as an example.

 

[steve]

Not for me Steve. I think it was pretty simple and logical for Rose to just stay with his man, because Son never wavered. There was never a moment where there was doubt for Rose what Son was doing. Rose on the other hand doesn't do either. Doesn't stick with his man or go to mark Son's, he just makes an assumption and it's illogical.

Second year on the trot that IMO (and I know you disagreed with me then as well - as did most people) Rose's poor decision making has cost us the points at the Emirates.

Rose for me, @steve. Wasn't the only time in the game he played the part of a spectator as a cross was swung in from his side. That being said, I think Lloris dropped a clanger. If Gomes had done that, people would be going crazy; the main difference being that Lloris is much more reliable.

Maybe. I guess the full back should take responsibility ultimately. It'd be interesting to see how it worked with Lamela before then I.e. how many times did they swap over the man, but I can see why it happens, especially when players get tired mentally.

The Giroud header was more alarming as he didn't have anyone near him, nor did he need to jump, but it gets less scrutiny as it didn't go in...

 

[dannythomas]

Personally, I think Chadli is productive enough (goals/assists) to justify being part of our squad and for me, particularly, I think he is the perfect back up as a lone striker in our system to Kane in terms of what he can offer. Although not the best in terms of tackles/interceptions and general pressing, he does show up for the ball, is a strong lad who can hold it and bring others in, he can also move with it and take players on (better than Kane IMO at this) and he does score and assist at a reasonable level.

Townsend I would definitely sell. I genuinely feel for the lad, especially when I listen to his dad speak about him, I know they both love the club, but he has had a better chance than most in house academy players get and just doesn't seem to learn. His application without the ball is really poor, even when he appears to run and close down he does it badly or in that way that doesn't actually engage the opponent or cause them problems, and he just does not produce creatively anywhere near enough, even when in some fabulous situations. It's a combination that no team can carry IMO, especially one that has the collective ethic at it's heart.

I know he's only playing against shitty defenders in Scotland but I would love to get Nathan Oduwa back from Rangers and get rid of Townsend. He has pace , unbelievable close control , runs at defences in the final 3rd and his final ball looks pretty incisive too. Could start off as a real impact sub , potentially a game changer.

 

[yankspurs]

We have a competent CB partnership with 2 really good center halves and we have Dier whose been a fantastic DM. Rose is still a very good LB. Walker's fuck ups have cut down from about 5 a game to 1 or 2 a game and toby has mostly been to bail him out.

 

[Shadydan]

I know he's only playing against shitty defenders in Scotland but I would love to get Nathan Oduwa back from Rangers and get rid of Townsend. He has pace , unbelievable close control , runs at defences in the final 3rd and his final ball looks pretty incisive too. Could start off as a real impact sub , potentially a game changer.

I'd rather Pritchard and Onomah get more game time should Townsend leave...Oduwa needs to stay up in Scotland with Warburton then he needs another loan (pref in the Prem) next season.

 

[jonathanhotspur]

The Giroud header was more alarming as he didn't have anyone near him, nor did he need to jump, but it gets less scrutiny as it didn't go in...

What I remember about one of those close shaves, @steve, is that Dier actually ducked as the cross came in!

 

[jonathanhotspur]

Looking at their goal again, it's a real scuffer that seems to have bounced off Hugo's knee and looped up over him.

It's just not possible to press with that ferocity for more than an hour. You need ball players and we didn't have enough of them on the field in that last half hour. I thought that was the most intense pressing I'd ever seen from us under Poch. It made my skin tingle.

 

[Hoddle&Waddle]

Not every goal is massively someone's fault, but as you point out he is a world class player (Ozil) the last thing you do is allow him time and space to put a ball into your box. This was someone's fault, massively IMO.

Bournemouth (or was it Villa I can't remember) allowed Eriksen to do the same the week before and Kane scored.

What was it, around 80 minutes they scored that goal? I'd put it down to tired legs rather than a mistake or poor play. I'm sure Danny's brain was telling him to get tighter but sometimes your body just wont let you. He was superb that day and ran his arse off, we just got caught out by a brilliant ball into the box late in the game against tired legs. Something you just have to accept sometimes when playing against world class players (which as much as it pains me to say, they have a couple).

 

[Bus-Conductor]

What was it, around 80 minutes they scored that goal? I'd put it down to tired legs rather than a mistake or poor play. I'm sure Danny's brain was telling him to get tighter but sometimes your body just wont let you. He was superb that day and ran his arse off, we just got caught out by a brilliant ball into the box late in the game against tired legs. Something you just have to accept sometimes when playing against world class players (which as much as it pains me to say, they have a couple).

Sorry mate, but I just don't agree. Rose was with Ozil. He left him. Ozil was allowed to put a great ball in when he should';t have been.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

For the record, we are making more tackles per game than any other team, committing more fouls per game than any other team and have picked up more yellows than any other team.

I'm loving these stats.

 

[THFCSPURS19]

For the record, we are making more tackles per game than any other team, committing more fouls per game than any other team and have picked up more yellows than any other team.

I'm loving these stats.

AVB or Poch?

 

[nicdic]

AVB or Poch?

Wha?

He's clearly talking about the current team, or are you on about something else?

 

[THFCSPURS19]

Wha?

He's clearly talking about the current team, or are you on about something else?

I'm asking who he prefers.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

AVB or Poch?

I haven't been ignoring this question (it's a good one) but I have been mulling it whilst also trying to debate another topic in General football.

The simple answer would be Pochettino.

The more complicated answer is that I think if AVB had had the environment and circumstances and timing that Pochettino has had - and I don't mean that to detract from Pochettino's input into the whole process - then I think it would be a harder decision. because I don't think there is a drastic difference in both their fundamental philosophies, but there are definitely nuanced differences. Both/all managers are to a degree a hostage to circumstance - and I think Pochettino's have been far more conducive to succeeding than AVB's were.

And even the differences don't make me necessarily prefer one to the other, because I can appreciate even the different facets of both. But both are "coaches" who believe in something, a collective ethos, of working hard without the ball as well as playing with it.

I think AVB came along at a very difficult time. We were shedding our best players, we'd been a team that played with no tactical or coached ethos but relied on individual strengths and weaknesses, we had ****'s like Sherwood in the background clearly working to his own agenda, we had players being backed over the managers collective egalitarian approach, we had a Chairman demanding CL football. This was not a recipe for a young coach to succeed. But I still feel he did a damn good job.

I think lessons have been learned and Pochettino is benefitting from some of those. But I think I enjoy watching this Spurs team more than any since about 1987. It's about the collective. It's about endeavour as much as talent.

 

[Mr Pink]

I haven't been ignoring this question (it's a good one) but I have been mulling it whilst also trying to debate another topic in General football.

The simple answer would be Pochettino.

The more complicated answer is that I think if AVB had had the environment and circumstances and timing that Pochettino has had - and I don't mean that to detract from Pochettino's input into the whole process - then I think it would be a harder decision. because I don't think there is a drastic difference in both their fundamental philosophies, but there are definitely nuanced differences. Both/all managers are to a degree a hostage to circumstance - and I think Pochettino's have been far more conducive to succeeding than AVB's were.

And even the differences don't make me necessarily prefer one to the other, because I can appreciate even the different facets of both. But both are "coaches" who believe in something, a collective ethos, of working hard without the ball as well as playing with it.

I think AVB came along at a very difficult time. We were shedding our best players, we'd been a team that played with no tactical or coached ethos but relied on individual strengths and weaknesses, we had ****'s like Sherwood in the background clearly working to his own agenda, we had players being backed over the managers collective egalitarian approach, we had a Chairman demanding CL football. This was not a recipe for a young coach to succeed. But I still feel he did a damn good job.

I think lessons have been learned and Pochettino is benefitting from some of those. But I think I enjoy watching this Spurs team more than any since about 1987. It's about the collective. It's about endeavour as much as talent.

I would strongly suspect that Poch would have vastly superior man management skills as well....would you not? So getting all the players to buy into what you want, and actually collectively implement it - what we're seeing now, becomes eminently more possible I would imagine.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I would strongly suspect that Poch would have vastly superior man management skills as well....would you not? So getting all the players to buy into what you want, and actually collectively implement it - what we're seeing now, becomes eminently more possible I would imagine.

No I wouldn't. If anything I think Pochettino is even less tolerant or pragmatic with his man management than AVB. Look at how many players Pochettino banished to oblivion, the difference is, he's been backed in doing so.

There's no devisive elements like Sherwood and Ferdinand on the background, and we've even updated our recruitment structure (which was another thing I forgot to mention in my answer above) and brought in the guy Pochettino worked with previously.

If you read Avb's biography and about what he's achieved elsewhere his man management skills were actually seen as a strength. Conversely read about Pochettino's time at Espsnyol where he also alienated half the senior players.

I don't have a problem with how Pochettino has handled things, man management wise, just as I didn't with AVB, but I think the biggest difference is that Pochettino has been backed and had a better environment to work in.

 

[Mr Pink]

No I wouldn't. If anything I think Pochettino is even less tolerant or pragmatic with his man management than AVB. Look at how many players Pochettino banished to oblivion, the difference is, he's been backed in doing so.

There's no devisive elements like Sherwood and Ferdinand on the background, and we've even updated our recruitment structure (which was another thing I forgot to mention in my answer above) and brought in the guy Pochettino worked with previously.

If you read Avb's biography and about what he's achieved elsewhere his man management skills were actually seen as a strength. Conversely read about Pochettino's time at Espsnyol where he also alienated half the senior players.

I don't have a problem with how Pochettino has handled things, man management wise, just as I didn't with AVB, but I think the biggest difference is that Pochettino has been backed and had a better environment to work in.

Interesting.

I don't have any concrete foundation for making such a claim other than my own instincts. Poch has got rid of some - but that's to his credit and part of his man management because he wants a group he can trust to carry out what he wants/expects.

And one thing I would point out is that Poch gave everyone a fair crack before making his mind up. Kaboul was made captain and Adebayor was playing, as was Capoue etc. So no one was banished to oblivion without being assessed fairly first.

On the other hand AVB weighed in and wanted rid of VDV immediately. Couldn't of seen Poch doing similar even if circumstances may of varied.

I just have a feeling the majority of players would prefer his personality over AVB's and that in itself is more likely to improve response rates so to speak.

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

Interesting.

I don't have any concrete foundation for making such a claim other than my own instincts. Poch has got rid of some - but that's to his credit and part of his man management because he wants a group he can trust to carry out what he wants/expects.

And one thing I would point out is that Poch gave everyone a fair crack before making his mind up. Kaboul was made captain and Adebayor was playing, as was Capoue etc. So no one was banished to oblivion without being assessed fairly first.

On the other hand AVB weighed in and wanted rid of VDV immediately. Couldn't of seen Poch doing similar even if circumstances may of varied.

I just have a feeling the majority of players would prefer his personality over AVB's and that in itself is more likely to improve response rates so to speak.

This is isn't really true. AVB just told VDV that he would have to fight for his place in the side like every other player. VDV just acted like a prima-donna and took that as an insult after being over indulged by the previous manager.

 

[nicdic]

Interesting.

I don't have any concrete foundation for making such a claim other than my own instincts. Poch has got rid of some - but that's to his credit and part of his man management because he wants a group he can trust to carry out what he wants/expects.

And one thing I would point out is that Poch gave everyone a fair crack before making his mind up. Kaboul was made captain and Adebayor was playing, as was Capoue etc. So no one was banished to oblivion without being assessed fairly first.

On the other hand AVB weighed in and wanted rid of VDV immediately. Couldn't of seen Poch doing similar even if circumstances may of varied.

I just have a feeling the majority of players would prefer his personality over AVB's and that in itself is more likely to improve response rates so to speak.

I think @Bus-Conductor is right Pinky. But it's a number of factors coming together. We're left with the perception that Pochettino is probably a better man manager, but how much of that is down to the current conditions in regard to playing staff, coaching staff, and background staff? We have a much younger squad with smaller egos, and a club that is pulling together in the same direction.

I think an argument could be made for AVB in each of the categories you mentioned, and the VDV thing is slightly disingenuous. AVB told him he wouldn't be first choice, it was Rafa's ego that took real umbridge to that. We have to be careful taking just VDV's telling of the story because it's bound to be biased somewhat. We have no idea exactly how the conversation went or anything, not to mention all that was going on in Rafa's private life at the time too. Pochettino I expect would have likewise said to players that no one was guaranteed to start, and they'd need to work. Benefit is now that younger players are up for that, some egos aren't so much.