Saido Berahino signs for Stoke City

[talkshowhost86]

For "not a striker", Son has a better goal scoring record this season than Berahino did in his last proper season ? He also offers a fair bit more all round too, creates more, assists more, key passes more. I'm not Son's biggest fan, but in what way is he an inferior striker to Berahino ?

You know that comparison isn't fully sensible. Son is playing in a better team and often playing not as a striker therefore more likely to create/assist etc.

Like I said I'm not sure Berahino is the answer but I'm not sure Son or Janssen are either.

 

[SpartanSpur]

For "not a striker", Son has a better goal scoring record this season than Berahino did in his last proper season ? He also offers a fair bit more all round too, creates more, assists more, key passes more. I'm not Son's biggest fan, but in what way is he an inferior striker to Berahino ?

I agreed with @Talkshowhost, and to interject here, my take is not that Berahino is any better than Son, but that from watching the games in which he did play as a striker he really wasn't suited to that role. A bit like Chadli in his brief outings there. In fact it was Poch's insistence to use him in Kane's absence that killed his hot streak out at LW for me.

So the theory then is that with Janssen really struggling for confidence, and working like a trojan but in the least effective way, a specialist could well be on our radar. Now Berahino seems a bit of a mess right now, but has been a player we identified before and would at this stage probably be a pretty cheap gamble, in which even with the player we'd hold all the cards. In fact this window always came across as a opportunistic or nil situation so I could see why they would consider it. Its a bit similar to the Llorente/Batshuayi thing, although there would be big concerns about how quickly Berahino could acclimatise to us.

TLDR - Son is a better player than Berahino, Berahino would be a pretty desperate gamble, but Son is simply not a striker, so it would make sense to consider another ST.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You know that comparison isn't fully sensible. Son is playing in a better team and often playing not as a striker therefore more likely to create/assist etc.

Like I said I'm not sure Berahino is the answer but I'm not sure Son or Janssen are either.

I get you, I'm not Son's biggest fan either, and I don't think Janssen will ever be top drawer, but I know Berahino isn't the answer either, I just think it's pointless adding any more flawed or compromised strikers, we have that base covered.

I can't think of too many strikers, other than Lacazette, who might be available, and actually be a top quality striker who we could also keep happy by playing competently in one or tow other positions in our system.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I agreed with @Talkshowhost, and to interject here, my take is not that Berahino is any better than Son, but that from watching the games in which he did play as a striker he really wasn't suited to that role. A bit like Chadli in his brief outings there. In fact it was Poch's insistence to use him in Kane's absence that killed his hot streak out at LW for me.

So the theory then is that with Janssen really struggling for confidence, and working like a trojan but in the least effective way, a specialist could well be on our radar. Now Berahino seems a bit of a mess right now, but has been a player we identified before and would at this stage probably be a pretty cheap gamble, in which even with the player we'd hold all the cards. In fact this window always came across as a opportunistic or nil situation so I could see why they would consider it. Its a bit similar to the Llorente/Batshuayi thing, although there would be big concerns about how quickly Berahino could acclimatise to us.

TLDR - Son is a better player than Berahino, Berahino would be a pretty desperate gamble, but Son is simply not a striker, so it would make sense to consider another ST.

Why is Janssen working in the least effective way ? If he's working, pressing and holding it up and bringing other players in, he's working OK.

The point isn't necessarily that Son is a great replacement for Kane - he certainly isn't - nor is Berahino - it's that he can do it on the odd occasion, has a decent scoring record (better than Berainho's) but can also fulfil other remits, so is a much more viable option than Berahino or someone like Berahino.

 

[Ossie85]

Janssen is not working ok.

You have to be blind not to see it.

Even Poch has declared he's struggling

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Janssen is not working ok.

You have to be blind not to see it.

Even Poch has declared he's struggling

It's not like he's missing 4 open goals or sitters a game is it ? We are barely creating chances for him are we. What's he supposed to do ? The rest of what he's doing is what is expected of him. The rest of what he's doing is OK. Working, pressing, pulling CB's about, getting into positions, and then watching as the players around him fail to find him mostly.

When Kane goes through droughts, and bumbles around like a he's got his boots on the wrong feet do we all insist he's no good ?

 

[Ossie85]

It's not like he's missing 4 open goals or sitters a game is it ? We are barely creating chances for him are we. What's he supposed to do ? The rest of what he's doing is what is expected of him. The rest of what he's doing is OK. Working, pressing, pulling CB's about, getting into positions, and then watching as the players around him fail to find him mostly.

When Kane goes through draughts, and bumbles around like a he's got his boots on the wrong feet do we all insist he's no good ?

Really? That's what you expect from him?

 

[glospur]

It's not like he's missing 4 open goals or sitters a game is it ? We are barely creating chances for him are we. What's he supposed to do ? The rest of what he's doing is what is expected of him. The rest of what he's doing is OK. Working, pressing, pulling CB's about, getting into positions, and then watching as the players around him fail to find him mostly.

When Kane goes through draughts, and bumbles around like a he's got his boots on the wrong feet do we all insist he's no good ?

I'm not so sure I agree that we are barely creating chances for him.

I think it's more a case that he isn't putting himself into positions where he can take advantage of any chances that are created, Apparently Shearer made a point on MotD after the FA Cup game that his movement and positioning for a striker is poor. Too often he is waiting at the edge of the box or stuck in the channels or on the rare occasions that he does make good runs he goes far too early and is offside.

 

[SpartanSpur]

Why is Janssen working in the least effective way ? If he's working, pressing and holding it up and bringing other players in, he's working OK.

The point isn't necessarily that Son is a great replacement for Kane - he certainly isn't - nor is Berahino - it's that he can do it on the odd occasion, has a decent scoring record (better than Berainho's) but can also fulfil other remits, so is a much more viable option than Berahino or someone like Berahino.

Dropping far to deep, playing simple balls backwards most of the time resetting the play. In recent games he's been picking the ball up on the wide edges of the area but does not have the guile or confidence to make something out of it right now. He's also not occupying the right areas (something Alli excels) in on the rare occasions we try and create something for him, I will admit the team isn't helping him too much. He had Trippier playing in the last game, he should have spent the whole game looking for the early cross, but he's almost trying TOO hard to be a team player.

I agree with your second paragraph, I just personally think Poch has done Son no favours when using him as an ST and would much rather he focused him in LW where he hit his best form. Even if Kane is out Alli as false 9 with Son wide would be preferable for me. I mentioned the Llorente/Batshauyi thing as it would be quite good for me if we could get Janssen a confidence building loan and bring someone in who could be a handy plan B for the next 6 months, which Berahino could fit however like I said before he could flop even harder so would be a huge gamble.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I'm not so sure I agree that we are barely creating chances for him.

I think it's more a case that he isn't putting himself into positions where he can take advantage of any chances that are created, Apparently Shearer made a point on MotD after the FA Cup game that his movement and positioning for a striker is poor. Too often he is waiting at the edge of the box or stuck in the channels or on the rare occasions that he does make good runs he goes far too early and is offside.

i don't think Shearer's ever said anything remotely insightful.

Two weeks ago he was probably highlighting Kane making exactly the same moves but pointing what a genius Kane is for "pulling defenders out of shape" and wotnot.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Dropping far to deep, playing simple balls backwards most of the time resetting the play. In recent games he's been picking the ball up on the wide edges of the area but does not have the guile or confidence to make something out of it right now. He's also not occupying the right areas (something Alli excels) in on the rare occasions we try and create something for him, I will admit the team isn't helping him too much. He had Trippier playing in the last game, he should have spent the whole game looking for the early cross, but he's almost trying TOO hard to be a team player.

I agree with your second paragraph, I just personally think Poch has done Son no favours when using him as an ST and would much rather he focused him in LW where he hit his best form. Even if Kane is out Alli as false 9 with Son wide would be preferable for me. I mentioned the Llorente/Batshauyi thing as it would be quite good for me if we could get Janssen a confidence building loan and bring someone in who could be a handy plan B for the next 6 months, which Berahino could fit however like I said before he could flop even harder so would be a huge gamble.

But Janssen/Kane and Alli have very different remits. It's partly the movement of Kane and Janssen type of strikers that occupies defenders and pulls them about that makes space for players like Alli to ghost into.

Pochettino used the very limited Lambert in exactly the same way at Southampton for players like Rodriguez.

 

[newbie]

Really? Where did that come from (genuine question)?

I think rose might well have been a nob when he was younger regardless he has turned it around, personally think SB would love to prove himself and be s good signing he would be easy to sell on and has s point to prove. His not a Pulis type of player

 

[talkshowhost86]

But Janssen/Kane and Alli have very different remits. It's partly the movement of Kane and Janssen type of strikers that occupies defenders and pulls them about that makes space for players like Alli to ghost into.

Pochettino used the very limited Lambert in exactly the same way at Southampton for players like Rodriguez.

And if Janssen was doing that then I think we'd all be happier.

But I haven't seen any evidence of him occupying defenders to any great benefit of the rest of the side so far.

There's also the point that if he's supposedly our back-up to Kane, we would want him to be able to do something similar to Kane if he has to come in to the side.

 

[PMS]

Janssen is exactly the type of player that Tony Pulis might welcome at Westbrom. Strong holds up play etc.

Possible swap for Sadio on the cards?

 

[Bus-Conductor]

And if Janssen was doing that then I think we'd all be happier.

But I haven't seen any evidence of him occupying defenders to any great benefit of the rest of the side so far.

There's also the point that if he's supposedly our back-up to Kane, we would want him to be able to do something similar to Kane if he has to come in to the side.

He has been. You think Kane has been great lately ? Kane's been bumbling about, giving the ball away carelessly, dragging shots and not pressing that great. Janssen has been pressing better than Kane and has actually made double the tackles Kane has per 90.

It's not the glamorous part of his remit but it's vital in our system, especially when you have players like Alli and Son who can exploit that.

Playing Janssen in the tactically stolid format of the weekend (and early part of the season)is not going to help him get goals.

Just watch Kane's performances of late, he's been doing the same things Janssen does, in the same areas, and not very well a lot of the time.

Last season it took Kane two months of bumbling before he started scoring. But we forgave him because he was doing similar things to what Janssen is doing now, recognised his remit is more than just goal hanging.

 

[talkshowhost86]

He has been. You think Kane has been great lately ? Kane's been bumbling about, giving the ball away carelessly, dragging shots and not pressing that great. Janssen has been pressing better than Kane and has actually made double the tackles Kane has per 90.

It's not the glamorous part of his remit but it's vital in our system, especially when you have players like Alli and Son who can exploit that.

Playing Janssen in the tactically stolid format of the weekend (and early part of the season)is not going to help him get goals.

Just watch Kane's performances of late, he's been doing the same things Janssen does, in the same areas, and not very well a lot of the time.

Last season it took Kane two months of bumbling before he started scoring. But we forgave him because he was doing similar things to what Janssen is doing now, recognised his remit is more than just goal hanging.

I think you're hugely exaggerating the differences between what Kane does off the ball and what Janssen does, but even if you aren't, we can't have a player in our main striker position simply because he's good at pressing.

I'm not saying Janssen doesn't have it in him long-term (although I personally haven't seen much to convince me he does) but at the moment I'd be genuinely concerned that if Kane got injured, we'd really suffer on the goals front as a result of having to play Janssen.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think you're hugely exaggerating the differences between what Kane does off the ball and what Janssen does, but even if you aren't, we can't have a player in our main striker position simply because he's good at pressing.

I'm not saying Janssen doesn't have it in him long-term (although I personally haven't seen much to convince me he does) but at the moment I'd be genuinely concerned that if Kane got injured, we'd really suffer on the goals front as a result of having to play Janssen.

But, I would imagine you'd have felt the same way just before Kane finally came good wouldn't you ? For three years of cup games and loans he looked pretty much like a clumsy bumbler who kept missing sitters.

I'm not saying Janssen is wonderful off the ball, but lets not pretend Kane is always either, that's what I am saying.

And I'm not saying Janssen will turn into an uber striker, I'm pretty sure he won't ever be top drawer, and I'm not saying he's as good as Kane, I know he's not, that's the whole point of a "back up" surely we have to accept that? I'm not even saying that long term he will be a good enough back up for us, but I think his general game (including his character) is about as close to Kane's we could have found that was available out there. Strikers need to be playing every week to see the best of them, and the reason we like Kane so much is that even when he's going through droughts - and there have been big ones, like last year (nearly 3 months I think) because he plays every week, he generally brings that character, that work rate for the team cause and we put up with the bumbling and the droughts. If we think about Kane's early career with us it was pretty uninspiring, the vast majority of us did not even see a spark of what he was to become. Even now he goes through phases where you wonder how the fuck he's the great player sometimes, for the last few weeks he's been pretty hap hazard.

If you have a listen to the Scout7 podcast or a read of this:

http://www.skysports.com/football/n...-scouting-the-challenge-of-buying-from-abroad

It goes some way to explaining the scouting research and rationale behind signing Janssen.


Whoever we sign as "back up" will be flawed in some way, otherwise he won't be our back up. So if we accept this logic, and the example of Kane, it makes sense to show a bit of patience and understanding toward a young Janssen doesn't it ? Rather than just add yet another flawed player.

Personally, if I'd thought we had 60m to spend on attacking options last summer I wouldn't have signed any of Janssen, Nkoudou or Sissoko, I'd have just signed Lacazette, mustard striker who can also play wide forward and AM, but I very much doubt that will happen now, and there's no world class strikers out there willing to put their career on hold to sit on our bench for the wages we pay.

Look at what happened at Chelsea with Batshuayi, I said in the summer he's not the same type as Kane (or Costa) and wouldn't suit that role when we were after him and what has happened at Chelsea would have been even worse at Spurs, because we couldn't create a bloody chance for the first three months of the season, where Chelsea had the likes of Hazard and co, and even when Costa was out, Conte didn't want to use him, because his all round game is nowhere near what Costa/Kane (and Janssen) types offer the team dynamic.

I just think Janssen does fit the profile, he's nowhere near the finished article, he's only 21/22 having his first few months as an ad hoc back up, and whoever else we could find will also be a flawed player getting ad hoc games and minutes and will also not be "perfect" so might as well give Janssen some time before writing him off, especially in the remit of "back up".

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Great thread, guys. Loads of new, good shite about Berahino.

 

[dagraham]

I've never heard of him. Have we been linked with him before?

 

[Wheeler Dealer]

It's not like he's missing 4 open goals or sitters a game is it ? We are barely creating chances for him are we. What's he supposed to do ? The rest of what he's doing is what is expected of him. The rest of what he's doing is OK. Working, pressing, pulling CB's about, getting into positions, and then watching as the players around him fail to find him mostly.

When Kane goes through draughts, and bumbles around like a he's got his boots on the wrong feet do we all insist he's no good ?