SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[Donki]

But this is why the high press is so vital, it's how you isolate defenders and create over loads that you can't get in normal play when bus parkers are set.

This was the one facet of Southampton's play I liked, just wasn't convinced about their inability to maintain it and manage the "down" times.

I don't see it as vital, it depends who your playing, a team who sits back with a lot of long balls its hard to isolate a single defender and all your doing is shifting your own line up creating space for them to break into. We need to be selective of who we press on and at what stages in the game. We shouldn't be simply runnign at players hoping we startle them like kids on a school yard, press them into a corner, onto their weeker foot, in a directio where they can't find a pass, thats what we are not doing.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Don't be obtuse Bear. They have to have it sometimes. You set about them early (a la Liverpool last year e.g.) you get a goal and then they have to change their tactics, and you can now pick them off on the counter as they have to come out more, with your superior talent hopefully.

But even setting about them early only works when they are trying to do something with it. Most of the sides we come up against at home are timewasting from the 5th minute.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

To be fair, Ido think a lot of PL teams with limited defenders 'piss about with it' unconvincingly at the back and can get caught out. Even the likes of Stoke etc. nowadays have a go at knocking it around the back line.

Yeah they might do on their own ground. Away from home though I'm not on board at all. The likes of Martinez's Wigan are few and far between nowadays unfortunately for us.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Yeah they might do on their own ground. Away from home though I'm not on board at all. The likes of Martinez's Wigan are few and far between nowadays unfortunately for us.

According to some on here lately everyone's playing ticky tacka.

You either do what AVB did, which is be patient, try to drag the opposition around until eventually you grind an opening or someone like Bale does something wonderful. Or you set about them, try and isolate them before they are set, create an overload and get a goal early that forces them to open up.

At the moment we are kind of doing a bit of both (with Eriksen becoming the new Bale) and lots of neither.

Breaking down a well drilled bus parker is one of football's eternal conundrums. Greece won a fucking Euro doing it. Chelsea won a CL doing it, against Barca and Bayern in their own back yards.

We are in that nether world, we are not an uber team with superstars all over the place to crack bus parkers, or with a world class defence to resist good breaks - which is another important facet of resisting the bus - but we are good enough that teams want to do it to us. We are, if you like, the ideal recipient for the bus park tactics. We haven't got a full armoury of bus crackers and we haven't got a rock solid defence either.

 

[mpickard2087]

You don't even have to catch them out, though I think you can at times. Personally I'd press the fuck out of all the poorer teams and suffocate them. They can hoof it long and straight back to us as far as I'm concerned. I just want the game continuously played in their half and far away from our goal.

Where I do judge the manager, sorry head coach, though is how he goes about trying to break down these bus parkers. And I'm afraid a lot of managers/coaches don't cut the mustard tactically. There will be times when we aren't able to, but as long as we have a good go at it and I feel the manager has been adventurous tactically and exhausted all options available to him I'd be content we had tried. What I don't accept is rigidly sticking to 4-2-3-1 no matter what, all wanting the ball to feet, no width, no runners, no men in the box, continuous keep ball 40 yards out, and predictable subs such as swapping the odd striker or central midfielder.

The Sheffield Utd match for instance is arguable the most angry I have ever been with the team. I wasn't sure we were trying to win the match, just passing it around in the middle third for 90 mins.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

According to some on here lately everyone's playing ticky tacka.

You either do what AVB did, which is be patient, try to drag the opposition around until eventually you grind an opening or someone like Bale does something wonderful. Or you set about them, try and isolate them before they are set, create an overload and get a goal early that forces them to open up.

At the moment we are kind of doing a bit of both (with Eriksen becoming the new Bale) and lots of neither.

Breaking down a well drilled bus parker is one of football's eternal conundrums. Greece won a fucking Euro doing it. Chelsea won a CL doing it, against Barca and Bayern in their own back yards.

We are in that nether world, we are not an uber team with superstars all over the place to crack bus parkers, or with a world class defence to resist good breaks - which is another important facet of resisting the bus - but we are good enough that teams want to do it to us. We are, if you like, the ideal recipient for the bus park tactics. We haven't got a full armoury of bus crackers and we haven't got a rock solid defence either.

Completely agree with all that. Hence why I said originally I was 'disappointed' with the start we/Poch have made.

 

[dudu]

According to some on here lately everyone's playing ticky tacka.

You either do what AVB did, which is be patient, try to drag the opposition around until eventually you grind an opening or someone like Bale does something wonderful. Or you set about them, try and isolate them before they are set, create an overload and get a goal early that forces them to open up.

At the moment we are kind of doing a bit of both (with Eriksen becoming the new Bale) and lots of neither.

Breaking down a well drilled bus parker is one of football's eternal conundrums. Greece won a fucking Euro doing it. Chelsea won a CL doing it, against Barca and Bayern in their own back yards.

We are in that nether world, we are not an uber team with superstars all over the place to crack bus parkers, or with a world class defence to resist good breaks - which is another important facet of resisting the bus - but we are good enough that teams want to do it to us. We are, if you like, the ideal recipient for the bus park tactics. We haven't got a full armoury of bus crackers and we haven't got a rock solid defence either.

Great post - I feel what you are saying is overlooked by so many supporters.

 

[RichieS]

You'd think that we'd be practising the fuck out of corners as the way we play will always yield a few per game.

 

[Arthur Hucksake]

United were the masters of breaking down bus parkers under Red Nose.

His theory was pretty straight forward. You push one of the centre backs upto the DM area, full backs tuck in and just flood the opposition box. You have four players in their area moving about, it draws the centre backs out of position and drags their midfielders wider to stop the cross coming in. That's where you get a Scholes type running in from deep and you have options.

This was drilled thoroughly and needed to be.

From what I gather, we don't even prepare for that and just feel outplaying them with finesse is enough.

We try to carry an element of arrogance and swagger, but don't have the brains or talent to pull it off.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You'd think that we'd be practising the fuck out of corners as the way we play will always yield a few per game.

Trivial as this point could be, it drives me absolutely fucking nuts. Our set pieces are fucking atrocious. And it is such a waste, especially when we are finding it hard work to break teams down.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You don't even have to catch them out, though I think you can at times. Personally I'd press the fuck out of all the poorer teams and suffocate them. They can hoof it long and straight back to us as far as I'm concerned. I just want the game continuously played in their half and far away from our goal.

Where I do judge the manager, sorry head coach, though is how he goes about trying to break down these bus parkers. And I'm afraid a lot of managers/coaches don't cut the mustard tactically. There will be times when we aren't able to, but as long as we have a good go at it and I feel the manager has been adventurous tactically and exhausted all options available to him I'd be content we had tried. What I don't accept is rigidly sticking to 4-2-3-1 no matter what, all wanting the ball to feet, no width, no runners, no men in the box, continuous keep ball 40 yards out, and predictable subs such as swapping the odd striker or central midfielder.

The Sheffield Utd match for instance is arguable the most angry I have ever been with the team. I wasn't sure we were trying to win the match, just passing it around in the middle third for 90 mins.

The most worrying thing for me, is not how much we struggle to break down Bus Parkers - that is a affliction the whole of football struggles with and I am realistic enough to know that a good Bus Park is a tough nut, especially for a team with our budget - it's how easily we are completely rattled out of any kind of rhythm at all. Again, I don't expect to be dominating 90 minutes of every game, but there have been too many games where we have been over run for 30-60 minutes of games, and not always by great teams.

Like you, I just haven't seen any kind of sustained methodology and I haven't seen much tactical ingenuity or even pragmatism. But we are picking up points, and, generally, getting decent results.

We do have to give this regime proper time and proper backing - and I don't simply mean financially. I'm not overly impressed so far, but I'm not panicking either. I've seen enough to know we'll be OK and at least he's integrating the development and younger players, which is one huge plus.

 

[Blake Griffin]

the time i was most impressed with poch was arsenal away when he did exactly what i thought he wouldn't do, if it wasn't for a shanked lamela clearance leading to a fortunate/scruffy goal for them then we'd have probably come away with the win. i thought he'd do the same away to city and chelsea but instead we tried going toe-to-toe with them and we came away with seven goals conceded to one scored. i don't know what caused poch to do that, maybe he read sc and saw a few precious fans who think counter-attacking football is beneath us.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

the time i was most impressed with poch was arsenal away when he did exactly what i thought he wouldn't do, if it wasn't for a shanked lamela clearance leading to a fortunate/scruffy goal for them then we'd have probably come away with the win. i thought he'd do the same away to city and chelsea but instead we tried going toe-to-toe with them and we came away with seven goals conceded to one scored. i don't know what caused poch to do that, maybe he read sc and saw a few precious fans who think counter-attacking football is beneath us.

Maybe he never meant for us to only touch the ball 12 times in the Arsenal half that game ? Maybe it was just an elongated version of the games against Palace, Burnley, Leicester, etc where we just didn't get to do what he intended at all.

 

[Mr Pink]

What makes this thread great, IMO, is that I find myself agreeing with contrasting arguments, or at least parts of said arguments.

For instance, I agree with some of what BC is saying and some of what SB is saying. The old Redkanpp one always fascinates me though, its like we're still obsessed with the man as a fan base - either a group undermining what he did - and those who feel the right to defend that.

 

[Blake Griffin]

Maybe he never meant for us to only touch the ball 12 times in the Arsenal half that game ? Maybe it was just an elongated version of the games against Palace, Burnley, Leicester, etc where we just didn't get to do what he intended at all.

i forgot that quantity = quality.

 

[Mr Pink]

the time i was most impressed with poch was arsenal away when he did exactly what i thought he wouldn't do, if it wasn't for a shanked lamela clearance leading to a fortunate/scruffy goal for them then we'd have probably come away with the win. i thought he'd do the same away to city and chelsea but instead we tried going toe-to-toe with them and we came away with seven goals conceded to one scored. i don't know what caused poch to do that, maybe he read sc and saw a few precious fans who think counter-attacking football is beneath us.

Agreed. I thought we did well against Arsenal and we really should of made more of the counter attacking opportunities in the first half.

Second half we were obviously having to withstand a lot of pressure but overall I thought we did well.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

What makes this thread great, IMO, is that I find myself agreeing with contrasting arguments, or at least parts of said arguments.

For instance, I agree with some of what BC is saying and some of what SB is saying. The old Redkanpp one always fascinates me though, its like we're still obsessed with the man as a fan base - either a group undermining what he did - and those who feel the right to defend that.

You're right. It is fascinating I watched the goals of the season from 09/10 a couple of weeks ago, I was bored on site and YouTube isn't banned on the wifi, remembering games that I'd forgotten like putting 5 past Hull at their place, 5 at home to Burnley, 9 at home to Wigan, Liverpool and City at home etc. but it then of course dawned on me that it was just lottery bollocks and waiting for Bale to wang one in the top corner in the last minute at home to Southampton was all round better football and entertainment...

How the eyes see differently and all that.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

You're right. It is fascinating I watched the goals of the season from 09/10 a couple of weeks ago, I was bored on site and YouTube isn't banned on the wifi, remembering games that I'd forgotten like putting 5 past Hull at their place, 5 at home to Burnley, 9 at home to Wigan, Liverpool and City at home etc. but it then of course dawned on me that it was just lottery bollocks and waiting for Bale to wang one in the top corner in the last minute at home to Southampton was all round better football and entertainment...

How the eyes see differently and all that.

That really was fascinating Bear.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

That really was fascinating Bear.

I thought so.

 

[mpickard2087]

The most worrying thing for me, is not how much we struggle to break down Bus Parkers - that is a affliction the whole of football struggles with and I am realistic enough to know that a good Bus Park is a tough nut, especially for a team with our budget - it's how easily we are completely rattled out of any kind of rhythm at all. Again, I don't expect to be dominating 90 minutes of every game, but there have been too many games where we have been over run for 30-60 minutes of games, and not always by great teams.

Like you, I just haven't seen any kind of sustained methodology and I haven't seen much tactical ingenuity or even pragmatism. But we are picking up points, and, generally, getting decent results.

We do have to give this regime proper time and proper backing - and I don't simply mean financially. I'm not overly impressed so far, but I'm not panicking either. I've seen enough to know we'll be OK and at least he's integrating the development and younger players, which is one huge plus.

Agree with the first part of the post. BIB - True, and I'm not calling for his head, but my concern is that there should be evidence of tactical nous and having a good instinct for in game changes etc. from early on. For me, its either something you have got, or you haven't. It's not going to magically be discovered further down the line...

We'll be ok I agree, but I think its pretty clear now that we are stuck at around 6th place no matter who is in charge... Whether Poch has enough tactical acumen to carry us any further than that I'm not that sure at this stage.