SC's Tactical Autopsy thread

[mpickard2087]

What I don't understand, and what links the two pieces, is why does Pochettino's philosophy or system not allow for a change in shape and application ? I can understand him sticking to his basic philosophy of energetic press, high tempo, high line but why does he never adapt the shape or vary the strategy to counter the differing type of tactical opposition he meets.

We can still apply his high tempo, high press methods within the framework of a 433 (or other) so why is he so vehemently routed to the 4231. His mentor Bielsa was far more tactically versatile over the course of his coaching career, using some weird and wonderful formations including 3313, 4231, 343, 433 and was an innovative early exponent of converting CM's (or FB's) as CB's so his teams could play football in every area of the pitch (Later to be copied by Guardiola for example).

Anyone have any ideas ?

This is all stuff I have banged on about for ages, across several different managers, wanting to see it from whoever is in charge and to be honest is how I ultimately rate a coach - If they are a very good coach then they will have the ability to adapt. With Poch it has been more of the same, there have been times where in my opinion he should have adapted shape or personnel, rather than sticking to the 'tried and trusted'.

My honest opinion is that a lot of managers are not very good tacticians and also very unimaginative. They have a few principles about how they want the game to be played, but arent very good at putting a team together. They scratch around until they stumble upon something that works for them and stick to it. With a barely cohesive plan A though, they are hardly likely to switch to a plan B, C, D etc and be confident of keeping the principles of how that team plays as the shape changes.

I'm someone who tends to put the manager under a lot of scrutiny, but I love watching managers who try to be a bit different, try out new formations and use of players and think outside the box. It might not always work, but at least you don't die wondering and all options/possibilities are exhausted. If we had someone like a Bielsa/Guardiola type in charge I'd probably give them 5 years breathing space, because they'd be interesting tactically and keep giving us fascinating stuff to ponder.

As for the here and now... There are definitely some games where I would like to see a 4-3-3. Dembele is I guess a halfway house towards it but even he has been mostly playing as part of a 'front four' rather than dropping back in. I'd like to see a holding player alongside Bentaleb and Mason, as it would hopefully free them up to surge forward more. I think the balance of the three up top though would need looking at... A cm3 plus Lamela and Eriksen is very samey to me. I think Chadli would be necessary as the second person who gets in the box alongside the central striker. I also think that whoever you pick its lacking in a bit of pace and that bit of explosiveness to frighten defences.

 

[Shadydan]

I think it's a little too early to expect the manager to be messing about with formations after all it's clear he doesn't trust some of the players and maybe he'd prefer to stick to a formula to get the players used to his methods.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Maybe he does think about changing it up, but doesn't trust Capoue.

Capoue is not the only option, or the only key to changing strategy or formation.

 

[DaSpurs]

I think it's a little too early to expect the manager to be messing about with formations after all it's clear he doesn't trust some of the players and maybe he'd prefer to stick to a formula to get the players used to his methods.

Completely fair, but the adjustments between a 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 are really not that earth-shattering. I agree with BC here, I don't get why he doesn't try making those slight adjustments and seeing how it works, especially since we have so many players it would work for.

 

[DaSpurs]

Evening all. As often happens, some interesting points were raised this week in the ratings thread. I thought I'd pick them off and put them here as a little amuse bouche that may get the tactical discussion juices flowing:

Firstly, in response to @TheHoddleWaddle I posted a reference to an extract of an interview in this sunday's Sunday Times with Jose Mourinho.




Then later on in a response to a post I made saying that as much as I like Capoue and think he could have offered us something, I think Mason needs to play now until the end @Bobbins posted this:





Which I pretty much agree with and have been saying the same for as long as I can remember (including during AVB and Redknapp's time, even though personnel were different, for similar reasons I felt it would get the best of them).

I would love to see a front 6:

Mason Capoue Bentaleb

Lamela Kane Eriksen


What I don't understand, and what links the two pieces, is why does Pochettino's philosophy or system not allow for a change in shape and application ? I can understand him sticking to his basic philosophy of energetic press, high tempo, high line but why does he never adapt the shape or vary the strategy to counter the differing type of tactical opposition he meets.

We can still apply his high tempo, high press methods within the framework of a 433 (or other) so why is he so vehemently routed to the 4231. His mentor Bielsa was far more tactically versatile over the course of his coaching career, using some weird and wonderful formations including 3313, 4231, 343, 433 and was an innovative early exponent of converting CM's (or FB's) as CB's so his teams could play football in every area of the pitch (Later to be copied by Guardiola for example).

Anyone have any ideas ?

Great post.

I agree with your main idea here, wholeheartedly. I would like to see Poch experiment a bit more. While I agree with @Shadydan to the extent that (and I'm sure you would likely share this same hesitation) he shouldn't be making anywhere near the vast arrangement of experiments Bielsa has over his career at this point in his tenure with us, I do agree with you that I wish he'd try a few more things out. I also completely agree with you that we seem to immensely have the squad for a 4-3-3 specifically, as if it's almost tailor-made. I don't get the reservation.

Of course, ideally I'd like to see more pace and directness in the side than the lineup you're suggesting (but we've been over that plenty), but for now with the current options I don't think it'd be a poor idea at all. For me though, I'd go with

Walker - Dier - Verts - Rose
Stambouli
Bentaleb----------------
---------------Eriksen
Townsend - Kane - Chadli
​

With Townsend and Lamela rotating heavily based on the specific competition (strategy as Mourinho would say), and Capoue rotating with Stambouli and Mason with Bentaleb.

As of this summer, I wish we'd see based from realistic options at the club at that time

Walker - Dier - Verts - Rose
Bentaleb/Stambouli
Mason/Carroll--------------
-------------Eriksen/Pritchard
Towns/Lam - Kane/Chadli - Depay
​

With several of the others rotating with Depay/Kono, and Eriksen primarily playing the more attacking mid role if in a 4-3-3 and Pritch the No 10 if playing the 4-2-3-1.

​

 

[CornerPinDreamer]

Evening all.

We can still apply his high tempo, high press methods within the framework of a 433 (or other) so why is he so vehemently routed to the 4231. His mentor Bielsa was far more tactically versatile over the course of his coaching career, using some weird and wonderful formations including 3313, 4231, 343, 433 and was an innovative early exponent of converting CM's (or FB's) as CB's so his teams could play football in every area of the pitch (Later to be copied by Guardiola for example).

Anyone have any ideas ?

Exact thing keeps springing to mind. 3313 would have destroyed Spam, with Mason given that shuttling box to box role.. something in the players capability or Poch is stopping short of even trying the possibilities in Bielsa's model..

 

[mpickard2087]

I think changing things up as games go on is something that Poch could definitely improve on. But then I come back to what I was saying before, this seems to be a problem for a lot of managers.

A lot in the heat of the moment seem to not think things through logically though. One example was our game against Liverpool the other week... At 3-2 in the last 5 mins it was obvious that we would be desperately launching it into their box (which is what happened), yet Poch did the equally obvious thing of sending on an extra striker in Soldado as soon as their 3rd goal hit the back of the net. Personally I think the smarter thing to do would have been to put on our 6ft 6 centre back who wins everything in the air that we had sitting on the bench, he had as much chance as anyone to make something of the balls launched into their penalty area. I like to see this sort of thing, it might not work but its thinking outside the box and making brave decisions.

 

[stevespurs]

If we are talking managers as their strategies, and changing formations during a game. Is this a learned behavior or just a natural instinct.

I've read Harvard business grads, who are multi-millionaires, go bankrupt twice before they "really" make it. They are and have to be risk takers.

Is it the same with the best mangers? Fergie loved the horses, loved the punt, he was definitely a risk taker. AVB seemed very "safe" with little risk taken.

Can a manager learn to adapt, change throughout a game and become a risk taker? Can Poch?

I have coached football, athletics but mainly swimming and found spending time with other experienced coaches, has changed my views on what is/isn't important. Although I still hate losing, I have learned to become more philosophical. I get less caught up in the moment during team meets, and can change things mid carnival. I've coached for almost 30 years to alter so subtly, I believe Poch can develop these game changing skills over time.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is all stuff I have banged on about for ages, across several different managers, wanting to see it from whoever is in charge and to be honest is how I ultimately rate a coach - If they are a very good coach then they will have the ability to adapt. With Poch it has been more of the same, there have been times where in my opinion he should have adapted shape or personnel, rather than sticking to the 'tried and trusted'.

My honest opinion is that a lot of managers are not very good tacticians and also very unimaginative. They have a few principles about how they want the game to be played, but arent very good at putting a team together. They scratch around until they stumble upon something that works for them and stick to it. With a barely cohesive plan A though, they are hardly likely to switch to a plan B, C, D etc and be confident of keeping the principles of how that team plays as the shape changes.

I'm someone who tends to put the manager under a lot of scrutiny, but I love watching managers who try to be a bit different, try out new formations and use of players and think outside the box. It might not always work, but at least you don't die wondering and all options/possibilities are exhausted. If we had someone like a Bielsa/Guardiola type in charge I'd probably give them 5 years breathing space, because they'd be interesting tactically and keep giving us fascinating stuff to ponder.

As for the here and now... There are definitely some games where I would like to see a 4-3-3. Dembele is I guess a halfway house towards it but even he has been mostly playing as part of a 'front four' rather than dropping back in. I'd like to see a holding player alongside Bentaleb and Mason, as it would hopefully free them up to surge forward more. I think the balance of the three up top though would need looking at... A cm3 plus Lamela and Eriksen is very samey to me. I think Chadli would be necessary as the second person who gets in the box alongside the central striker. I also think that whoever you pick its lacking in a bit of pace and that bit of explosiveness to frighten defences.

But if played in a 433, I think Lamela would be a slightly different animal, as he was at Roma where he scored 15 goals in his last season. MOre of a forward, less of a midfielder.

I think he's actually less frustrating than Chadli on the ball, but Chadli's banged in a few goals so has bought himself some leeway with fans. But I don't mind the idea of Chadli either.

 

[Mr Pink]

I'd love to see:

Bentaleb
Mason
Eriksen

Lamela
Kane
Chadli

I suppose Bentaleb would be the most disciplined of the three but that looks a dynamic set up, and I don't seen any reason why they wouldn't be able to implement Pochettino's style.

I'm not sure if he'd ever consider doing this, or he just doesn't fancy over complicating things at the moment, but there's no doubt we'd be more suited to this set up.

We'd have better control of games, and those spaces between our midfield and defense shouldn't be as exposed providing we're working hard as a midfield unit.

But players like Lamela would be in positions more suited to them, were they could focus more in getting higher up the pitch and attacking the box.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

This is all stuff I have banged on about for ages, across several different managers, wanting to see it from whoever is in charge and to be honest is how I ultimately rate a coach - If they are a very good coach then they will have the ability to adapt. With Poch it has been more of the same, there have been times where in my opinion he should have adapted shape or personnel, rather than sticking to the 'tried and trusted'.

My honest opinion is that a lot of managers are not very good tacticians and also very unimaginative. They have a few principles about how they want the game to be played, but arent very good at putting a team together. They scratch around until they stumble upon something that works for them and stick to it. With a barely cohesive plan A though, they are hardly likely to switch to a plan B, C, D etc and be confident of keeping the principles of how that team plays as the shape changes.

I'm someone who tends to put the manager under a lot of scrutiny, but I love watching managers who try to be a bit different, try out new formations and use of players and think outside the box. It might not always work, but at least you don't die wondering and all options/possibilities are exhausted. If we had someone like a Bielsa/Guardiola type in charge I'd probably give them 5 years breathing space, because they'd be interesting tactically and keep giving us fascinating stuff to ponder.

As for the here and now... There are definitely some games where I would like to see a 4-3-3. Dembele is I guess a halfway house towards it but even he has been mostly playing as part of a 'front four' rather than dropping back in. I'd like to see a holding player alongside Bentaleb and Mason, as it would hopefully free them up to surge forward more. I think the balance of the three up top though would need looking at... A cm3 plus Lamela and Eriksen is very samey to me. I think Chadli would be necessary as the second person who gets in the box alongside the central striker. I also think that whoever you pick its lacking in a bit of pace and that bit of explosiveness to frighten defences.

With regards to the main points you make, as we've discussed before and I've said before, I like the idea of a manager with tactical flexibility (it's one of the reasons Rodgers continues to impress me) but I think those that can do it well and coach well, are extremely rare.

I don't think Wenger is good tactically at all for example. I don't even think Guardiola is. I read a recent extract in the Blizzard (football quarterly edited by Jonathan Wilson) where Guardiola talks about how it was his fitness guy (or goalkeeper coach or something) who suggested moving Lahm into midfield fpor example. But Wenger and Guardiola are extremely goad at coaching a more singular philosophy.

Mourinho is the prime multi-faceted example. Simeone I think is another arch pragmatist. And then you have people like Klopp who can straddle both worlds. Have a very singular philosophy mainly, but can tinker to suit opposition too. I think Rodgers shows signs of this.

I will happily live with Pochettino's more singular ethos, as long as we keep showing the right aptitude and it's more right than wrong. I still have reservations about Pochettino's ethos and his ability to maintain it as a consistent method and make it successful. But I am so much happier watching us try to carry his vision out than the aimless, visionless, disorganised stuff we saw under people like Jol, Redknapp or Sherwood (though I accept Sherwood may change given a longer time to implement but I have my doubts).

 

[DaSpurs]

But if played in a 433, I think Lamela would be a slightly different animal, as he was at Roma where he scored 15 goals in his last season. MOre of a forward, less of a midfielder.

I think he's actually less frustrating than Chadli on the ball, but Chadli's banged in a few goals so has bought himself some leeway with fans. But I don't mind the idea of Chadli either.

Agreed actually. I find Chadli's timid lack of will to charge at back lines despite his power rather frustrating. So much space but he holds up far too often.

 

[fortworthspur]

right now we are like Charlie Sheen - we only know one speed - "Go".

 

[TheHoddleWaddle]

His default team and formation I have no problem with. My biggest problem with Poch, is that he does not adapt as a game ebbs and flows. The two games last week a good example. We failed to adapt to their changes and were often overrun in midfield. Sometimes it is crying out, not necessarily for a change of personnel, but a change of formation. E.g. vs West Ham, more steel in the middle and i am certain our quality would have been too much for them.

I think the 'my way or the highway' approach to games can only take you so far. Adaptable coaches will find a way around it. I also think thee are a few square pegs in round holes with the players and this style of play which doesn't help.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

Some very good points made in this thread and it seems like most people are on the same page.

I also agree that our squad is and has been suited to a 433 for a long time. It's what the u21s were using week in week out for a while under Sherwood and Ramsey. The few times we have used it we looked quite good so I'm not sure why it has never been tried more often from the start even in cup/El games against weaker opposition.

Currently what we have in Mason and Bentaleb in the midfield 2 is like Xavi and Iniesta without Busquets. Not to that level obviously but my point is that at times, in certain games we need a designated holder. Then give the other 2 midfielders more freedom to support the attack.

What we have now in our current system of 4231 is Mason who likes to try and get forward is not really positionally disciplined leaving Bentaleb with quite a bit to do.

Also, and for me this is the biggest problem, we don't actually have a no 10. Ajax mostly always played 433 so Eriksen was wide left in the front 3 or part of the Middle 3. He actually gets lost in quite a few games where he starts as the no10 for us. Dembele is never a no10 for me, yea he can hold the ball and dribble but lacks the true qualities a no 10 needs which is good shooting and the ability to play the killer pass.

I like Poch, and I like lots of what he has done with regards to the mentality of the squad and he seems to have handled situations with players quite well. I just hope he becomes a bit more flexible with his thinking as I don't think the current system is getting the best out of the players.

People can knock Rodgers for the junk that comes out his mouth but he is very flexible tactically. At Swansea he played 433 regularly, tried it at Liverpool for a while but it didn't really work. He wanted to get the best out of Suarez and Sturridge playing them through the middle so he changed to a 4312 with Sterling or Coutinho as the no10 and they took off. This season he has changed it around again and experimented with 3412 but has now settled on a 343 and they are on a great run. I like this as it shows he is looking at how he can adapt the system to get the best out of the players he has at his disposal.

Hopefully Poch can improve in this area as the times when he has changed it mid-game have been a bit questionable imo.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Even a non-tactic head here has been muttering about the rigidity of the Poch system . I thought I saw the birth of a counterattacking system vs Arse away 1-1 ...but I was wrong .

Apart from apparently not taking into account the oppo so much , Poch's rigidity means that the oppo can predict exactly how we are going to be set up , so wily old stagers like fat Sam can confidently take counter measures before kick off .

Predictability....not good .

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

I'll express my views on Pochettion's tactics not with my own words, but through eloquent quotes of @Bus-Conductor (This is about the match vs. West Ham, but is universally valid as far as I'm concerned). The highlighted sentence is the absolute quintessence of Pochettion's plans.

"Tactically this was the nightmare. Allardyce, not for the first time against us, got his tactics very right, and Pochettino got his very wrong, and then compounded it with some baffling substitutions.

This was, for most of the day, a pretty shitty day at the office for all things Spurs. Startingwith Pochettino's team selection.

Really strange stuff from Pochettino, not for the first time, that tactically made us weaker than we could have been. And his in game subs were equally dubious.

You could see we were getting drastically outnumbered in the middle of the pitch, but Pochettino did nothing to alleviate this,

when he makes poor choices within that framework, that singular approach can be made to look a bit one dimensional and can be exposed. Too often this season, that has happened. Today was another day when that was the case.

When it works well the the more singular approach can be wonderful (Arsenal at home) but when it doesn't, it can be a mess (today)."

 

[mpickard2087]

With regards to the main points you make, as we've discussed before and I've said before, I like the idea of a manager with tactical flexibility (it's one of the reasons Rodgers continues to impress me) but I think those that can do it well and coach well, are extremely rare.

I don't think Wenger is good tactically at all for example. I don't even think Guardiola is. I read a recent extract in the Blizzard (football quarterly edited by Jonathan Wilson) where Guardiola talks about how it was his fitness guy (or goalkeeper coach or something) who suggested moving Lahm into midfield fpor example. But Wenger and Guardiola are extremely goad at coaching a more singular philosophy.

Mourinho is the prime multi-faceted example. Simeone I think is another arch pragmatist. And then you have people like Klopp who can straddle both worlds. Have a very singular philosophy mainly, but can tinker to suit opposition too. I think Rodgers shows signs of this.

I will happily live with Pochettino's more singular ethos, as long as we keep showing the right aptitude and it's more right than wrong. I still have reservations about Pochettino's ethos and his ability to maintain it as a consistent method and make it successful. But I am so much happier watching us try to carry his vision out than the aimless, visionless, disorganised stuff we saw under people like Jol, Redknapp or Sherwood (though I accept Sherwood may change given a longer time to implement but I have my doubts).

I agree with most of that. Whilst I have no problem with a manager sticking to certain principles of play ( though I don't like sticking rigidly to the same structure and shape) I just think that the 'plan A', or singular philosophy as you put it, has to be really fucking good (ie. well coached and transferred to the players) and coupled with that you have to have a pretty good team to be able to get away with it... And even then someone like Guardiola will tinker with the shape etc. based on the opposition.

For me, Poch hasn't yet demonstrated that he can consistently get the players to carry out his plan A. We are seeing signs in some of the things that are happening, such as working harder and battling for results more, but I'm not seeing consistently joined-up performances yet. Some may disagree but that's how I'm seeing it. Of course its early days, and he hasn't had the time to fully implement things with his absolute ideal personnel amongst other things, but more than anything in this last part of the season I'd like consistent displays with a clear pattern emerging. I can accept Poch sticking to the same structure and shape, but for us he still has to prove it works first. Lets see what happens...

 

[DaSpurs]

As clear as it is that we need player reinforcements at several positions, I think at this point it's high time Poch begin to work on expanding his plans. His adherence to such a rigid idea is directly harming us IMO, and I don't think even a brilliant summer window will be sufficient. I think he should take a page out of his mentor, Bielsa's, book and use the rest of this season which we've lost to experiment.

We simply do not have the pace to establish an effective press in the opposition's half. It is simply not going to happen, and our attempts to try it along with the double pivot and high back line is directly exposing us. It all has to work together, and we are simply missing too many of the parts.

I would really like to see Poch play into the squad's strengths and employ a traditional (and deeper) 4-3-3. This allows Vertonghen and Dier to face the opposition more instead of continually having to turn and run down throughballs, affords a considerably smaller angle for opposition to counter into if/when Walker and Rose concede possession, allows the central midfield to stagger and establish balance instead of this blunted and inept double pivot which isn't even being provided the protection ahead of it for it to be able to actually pivot, gives us a dedicated defensive mid in midfield to shield the back line, gives us a central midfielder who can actually get forward and interact with the forward players, allows Eriksen to actually have space to work with instead of using him on the wing to give him space and thereby further expose Rose with his lack of pace, gives Chadli and Lamela/Townsend space to run at to actually build up momentum since none of them are particularly quick off the mark nor can create their own space, and finally it gives far more space to the players in behind to be able to find Kane in space.

This stubbornness with adhering to the same players and same system is massively grating on me, and it's directly harming our results. It is high time Poch learn to adapt. If it were a one-off then it'd be unnecessary, but since Arsenal we didn't win in five matches in a row, and then narrowly escaped QPR and Swansea, and now finally a smashing at an inconsistent Man U side. We have rather clearly been mapped out, as we're entirely too easy to predict in our setup.

 

[mpickard2087]

Yeah, nothing has really changed from my last posts in this thread ^^^.

Poch just has to be a bit smarter and willing to adapt at times.