Spurs U21’s, U18’s and other youth news – 2015/16 Edition

[edson]

Is there a link we can watch this at?

http://www.u19-cup.com/en/livestream

 

[Spursidol]

stizz¥•‏@reo_revaldo
Bet Northern Ireland 3-0

great performance from the lads

E u16 result, Griffiths seems not to be amongst the scorers

 

[Blake Griffin]

we've been a lot better this game, losing 1-0 though after an unfortunate deflection off maghoma.

 

[Blake Griffin]

2-0 now, looked like another deflection. don't deserve to be losing on the balance of play.

 

[jamaican_spurs]

We are easily the better team. two deflected goals. We seem to lack that bit of finess in the attacking third.

 

[jari17]

Wow beaten twice by a team of amateurs, some of our players really need to consider whether football is the path they want to go down

 

[Blake Griffin]

Wow beaten twice by a team of amateurs, some of our players really need to consider whether football is the path they want to go down

zzzzzz.

i'm sure we don't need to do the whole development vs results thing again but obviously the latter is very important to you as you only ever seem to post when we lose, maybe supporting chelsea or man city might be a path you want to go down? we're never going to have an entire academy of future first teamers, no club will, if we get one or two per year group then that's a big success. this u19 squad didn't include kwp, ccv, amos, onomah, edwards, harrison etc, if they had been available then i'm sure we'd have walked this "amateur" side - which by the way was essentially japan's national youth team, seemingly.

 

[jari17]

zzzzzz.

i'm sure we don't need to do the whole development vs results thing again but obviously the latter is very important to you as you only ever seem to post when we lose, maybe supporting chelsea or man city might be a path you want to go down? we're never going to have an entire academy of future first teamers, no club will, if we get one or two per year group then that's a big success. this u19 squad didn't include kwp, ccv, amos, onomah, edwards, harrison etc, if they had been available then i'm sure we'd have walked this "amateur" side - which by the way was essentially japan's national youth team, seemingly.

No absolutely not, I know development is important but these particular players bar a few are average who are obviously blocking the way for the talented ones. Its a Japanese high school not the national team. Regardless you can't be losing to a bunch of 5 a side players and call yourselfs talents.

 

[Sweech]

I don't think McKenna is there - think it's McDermott and Wells.

Mukena's cross just now was horrendous! May as well get Tracey on at RB.

Just goes to show not everything can be blamed on Ugo like so many seem to want.

Then again, it will probably fall on deaf ears as they're seeking confirmation bias.

 

[Sweech]

Maybe what we are seeing here is similar to the problems we have seen at U21 level much of the season. This tournament team is a melange of various age groups, some of whom haven't played as a collective unit together much, missing the most talented, and certainly 2 or 3 of the most creatively talented (Owens, Whiteman, Edwards, Brown, Tanganga, Shashoua, Kirby & Oakley-Booth). Chucked into a tournament format, abroad in strange surroundings against some decent opposition.

Maybe JM and the coach's will learn more (or at least learn) from stuff like this than they do from easier game situations with all the brighter lights playing.

@WindyCOYS
Glad your warming to Stylianides a little. I think functionaries are much harder to warm to - they rarely dazzle - but teams need them and very good ones who can also play a bit of football are pretty rare. We've ended up playing a 22yo CB as one all this season in the first team. Stylianides first caught my eye in the Asian tournament a year or so ago, it was a horrible tournament against some real tough, physical, dirty teams (inc from South America) on horrible pitches, the football wasn't pretty for most of it, but Stylianides stood up, got stuck in, was calm under pressure and made sensible choices once he'd won the ball. He didn't do anything mesmerising, but he showed a nice combination of character and composure in the maelstrom in CM.

@Blake Griffin (and Walkes comments)
I think we've all questioned Ehiogu's positional selection choices this year (and the way his teams have played - whether because of those selections or not) but earlier in this thread I mooted how much we blame Ehiogu for the odd positional selections and how much these decisions may be taken by committee with people like JM with a view to developing and testing individuals and in light of JM's talk recently (where he spoke of this facet and wanting this to be prioritised over results), maybe we have to review some of those opinions?

That doesn't mean I think Ehiogu is great, and JM himself has raised the issue of the current quality of coaches we have and have lost. Just that it's hard to judge at the moment when we aren't often seeing talented, settled development teams at their collective best for various reasons.

I think that JM/Inglethorpe/Ramsey coached Carroll, Bentaleb, Veljkovic, Pritchard, Smith, Kane group that all kind of developed and largely played together has become a yardstick by which we (or I know I have) judged other development teams - and what have seen lately is individuals developing at different rates, being moved up at different rates, loaned, off on international duty etc. Maybe there is an element of some of the collective performances suffering from the academy's own success, mixed in of course with the loss of 3 or 4 really good coaches and maybe a whole bunch of re-structuring that that has entailed and the academy and JM trying to re-jig slightly to Poch's instructions ??

The problem I find with what you refer to as "functionaries" at youth level is it seems that type only ever develops into League Football level cannon-fodder. Functionaries that play in the Prem were often top skilled players at youth level who just never caught on and then adapted the skillset later.

 

[WindyCOYS]

Maybe what we are seeing here is similar to the problems we have seen at U21 level much of the season. This tournament team is a melange of various age groups, some of whom haven't played as a collective unit together much, missing the most talented, and certainly 2 or 3 of the most creatively talented (Owens, Whiteman, Edwards, Brown, Tanganga, Shashoua, Kirby & Oakley-Booth). Chucked into a tournament format, abroad in strange surroundings against some decent opposition.

Maybe JM and the coach's will learn more (or at least learn) from stuff like this than they do from easier game situations with all the brighter lights playing.

I think it was the number of missing players, and therefore fodder as much as anything. The coaches probably don't care ultimately about where we finish in the tournament, but it does feel like a slightly missed opportunity to promote our talented academy.

@WindyCOYS
Glad your warming to Stylianides a little. I think functionaries are much harder to warm to - they rarely dazzle - but teams need them and very good ones who can also play a bit of football are pretty rare. We've ended up playing a 22yo CB as one all this season in the first team. Stylianides first caught my eye in the Asian tournament a year or so ago, it was a horrible tournament against some real tough, physical, dirty teams (inc from South America) on horrible pitches, the football wasn't pretty for most of it, but Stylianides stood up, got stuck in, was calm under pressure and made sensible choices once he'd won the ball. He didn't do anything mesmerising, but he showed a nice combination of character and composure in the maelstrom in CM.

Pretty much as soon as I posted that he started to frustrate me! He's such an odd player, and I am starting to wonder if he's really just there because he's rangy and athletic. Perhaps this could be why he hasn't looked great in the 21s - because he doesn't have that physical advantage.

I would genuinely love to be proven wrong but right now I see him being released after the third year of his scholarship next year. Having said that, he wouldn't be the worst player to have been given a pro contract in recent years. Perhaps he'll get the Grant Ward treatment and be sent out on loan to gather some value whilst meanwhile we hope for the best and see if he steps up.

@Blake Griffin (and Walkes comments)
I think we've all questioned Ehiogu's positional selection choices this year (and the way his teams have played - whether because of those selections or not) but earlier in this thread I mooted how much we blame Ehiogu for the odd positional selections and how much these decisions may be taken by committee with people like JM with a view to developing and testing individuals and in light of JM's talk recently (where he spoke of this facet and wanting this to be prioritised over results), maybe we have to review some of those opinions?

That doesn't mean I think Ehiogu is great, and JM himself has raised the issue of the current quality of coaches we have and have lost. Just that it's hard to judge at the moment when we aren't often seeing talented, settled development teams at their collective best for various reasons.

I remain entirely unconvinced by this. There are, absolutely, times when players need to be played in different positions to force them outside their comfort zones, to make them appreciate the jobs that other players do, because they physically can't play in their preferred position, etc. I get that. Walkes being played as a 10 for 5/6 games in a row is Ehiogu trying to add physicality to his midfield IMO - he probably thought it was a success when he scored a couple from arriving in the box late. Maybe I'm harsh blaming Ehiogu, and maybe it was actually a committee. But the decision-making was painfully bad and had no merit.

That doesn't mean I think Ehiogu is great, and JM himself has raised the issue of the current quality of coaches we have and have lost. Just that it's hard to judge at the moment when we aren't often seeing talented, settled development teams at their collective best for various reasons.

I think that JM/Inglethorpe/Ramsey coached Carroll, Bentaleb, Veljkovic, Pritchard, Smith, Kane group that all kind of developed and largely played together has become a yardstick by which we (or I know I have) judged other development teams - and what have seen lately is individuals developing at different rates, being moved up at different rates, loaned, off on international duty etc. Maybe there is an element of some of the collective performances suffering from the academy's own success, mixed in of course with the loss of 3 or 4 really good coaches and maybe a whole bunch of re-structuring that that has entailed and the academy and JM trying to re-jig slightly to Poch's instructions ??

In fairness, those individuals developed at different rates too - McDermott points out that Carroll and Pritchard may have been let go by other coaches, and that Kane was a late developer. Caulker was the opposite and peaked early, etc etc. I guess we also have to remember that even in that 'golden' generation there was some dross too.

Just goes to show not everything can be blamed on Ugo like so many seem to want.

Then again, it will probably fall on deaf ears as they're seeking confirmation bias.

This is a very, very different situation. Ehiogu has been blamed for using fodder who are blocking quality young players who deserve a chance. I say 'has been blamed for' - he has done that. For whatever reason, and there are probably some good ones, he has done that.

Whereas in this case, McDermott and Wells have been trying to select XI players each match from a fairly poor group of players due to absences, etc.

 

[Spursidol]

i had thought that this u19 tournament would allow us to see how we would fair in next seasons UEFA u19 Youth League (which all CL clubs enter and being 11 points ahead of 5th with 8 games to go that's looking likely) but on reflection ,pleased to say it will not for 2 reasons.

The first is that we had a fair number of absences from international call ups and the second is that I think the player eligibility will be for players born on or after 1 January 1998 (with 3 over age ie born after 1 January 11997 ) being eligible - this latter will exclude all the development squad and this season's Academy Year 2 players other than McDermott, Styliandes and Tracey except from the over age category.

So essentially the squad (which can be up to 40 players) will come from the current Academy Year 1 and u16's - with the over age players possibly being Carter-Vickers, Maghoma and Glover.

 

[Blake Griffin]

i had thought that this u19 tournament would allow us to see how we would fair in next seasons UEFA u19 Youth League (which all CL clubs enter and being 11 points ahead of 5th with 8 games to go that's looking likely) but on reflection ,pleased to say it will not for 2 reasons.

The first is that we had a fair number of absences from international call ups and the second is that I think the player eligibility will be for players born on or after 1 January 1998 (with 3 over age ie born after 1 January 11997 ) being eligible - this latter will exclude all the development squad and this season's Academy Year 2 players other than McDermott, Styliandes and Tracey except from the over age category.

So essentially the squad (which can be up to 40 players) will come from the current Academy Year 1 and u16's - with the over age players possibly being Carter-Vickers, Maghoma and Glover.

glover; muscatt, carter-vickers, tanganga, brown; marsh, oakley-boothe, kirby; edwards, shashoua, sterling

i'd like to see something like that but i imagine maghoma, owens, stylianides and tracey will probably be ahead of the younger options.

 

[Anuth]

Wow beaten twice by a team of amateurs, some of our players really need to consider whether football is the path they want to go down

You are the most negative thinker, I ever know.

Yes, this Japan team are not their international team but they are not amateur. Japanese academy system is different to European system. Youth players can go to two different paths. First is to go directly to club academy. Second way is to play for your high school team. Then they will sign with professional club after they graduate. I beileve, if not all, most of them will be professional player.

This team is selected from the national high school tournament which is 94 years old tournament.

if you look at most of the Japanese football players profile, you'd see they played for their high school team before they join the professional football club. I will do the work for you.

Kaisuke Honda => Seiryo High School
Yugo Nagatomo => Higashi Fukuoka High School
Yuya Osako => Kagoshima Josei High School
Shinji Okazaki => Takigawa Daini High school

Finally, in the tournament of 50 minutes match(not even 90), we lost 3 matches gainst Japan Highschool (2013 winner) and RB Salzburg which has been winning this tornament 3 years in a row (2014, 2015 and 2016) and you want our players to quit on playing football. I don't know what to say

Oh, 2 players from this Japanese "amatuer" team are awarded midfield and striker of the tournament.


PS. I'm not native english speaker. Hope my english is good enough for everyone to understand.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I think it was the number of missing players, and therefore fodder as much as anything. The coaches probably don't care ultimately about where we finish in the tournament, but it does feel like a slightly missed opportunity to promote our talented academy.

I think this has been an accusation all season at various levels to an extent. Would have been nice to see some of the more talented younger group pushed up into the U21's more often for example, who were devoid of creative talent for long spells, but I guess this is always a challenge for JM/coaches, how fast and how hard to push kids up levels, the effect it has on them and the effect it has on the older kids being passed over for younger ones.

Pretty much as soon as I posted that he started to frustrate me! He's such an odd player, and I am starting to wonder if he's really just there because he's rangy and athletic. Perhaps this could be why he hasn't looked great in the 21s - because he doesn't have that physical advantage.

I would genuinely love to be proven wrong but right now I see him being released after the third year of his scholarship next year. Having said that, he wouldn't be the worst player to have been given a pro contract in recent years. Perhaps he'll get the Grant Ward treatment and be sent out on loan to gather some value whilst meanwhile we hope for the best and see if he steps up.

I think there's a bit more to him than that, but time will tell. It so much easier for CB's, forwards and creative types to stand out as kids. Busy ****s and FB's seem to be the hardest to assess generally as they have a very multi faceted remit. They have to be good in a multitude of ways, and it's often hard to shine in all of them at once.

I remain entirely unconvinced by this. There are, absolutely, times when players need to be played in different positions to force them outside their comfort zones, to make them appreciate the jobs that other players do, because they physically can't play in their preferred position, etc. I get that. Walkes being played as a 10 for 5/6 games in a row is Ehiogu trying to add physicality to his midfield IMO - he probably thought it was a success when he scored a couple from arriving in the box late. Maybe I'm harsh blaming Ehiogu, and maybe it was actually a committee. But the decision-making was painfully bad and had no merit.

Agree about Walkes in forward areas. Just no. But I do think it's more about forcing players outside their comfort zones, testing and developing physical and mental parts of their game that don't get tested if they just play where they are comfortable.

In fairness, those individuals developed at different rates too - McDermott points out that Carroll and Pritchard may have been let go by other coaches, and that Kane was a late developer. Caulker was the opposite and peaked early, etc etc. I guess we also have to remember that even in that 'golden' generation there was some dross too.

Maybe that's me just remembering that group that way. They just seemed to all develop together to me, seemed to know each other's game so well, and (along with Dombaxe who I liked as well) just seemed to be a really great group who complimented each - and they were well coached by Inglethorpe initially I think and that stuck with them.

This is a very, very different situation. Ehiogu has been blamed for using fodder who are blocking quality young players who deserve a chance. I say 'has been blamed for' - he has done that. For whatever reason, and there are probably some good ones, he has done that.

Whereas in this case, McDermott and Wells have been trying to select XI players each match from a fairly poor group of players due to absences, etc.

I don't know how good a coach Ehiogu is, I have some reservations, but I very much doubt the decisions to play players he's playing in positions he's playing them is taken purely by him. I reckon at this final stage of development JM (and even Poch maybe) would have an input into what's happening at this penultimate stage. This is the point where players either transition to the first team group, go on loans with a view to a final chance to prove and/or develop or get released/moved on.

 

[IGSpur]

glover; muscatt, carter-vickers, tanganga, brown; marsh, oakley-boothe, kirby; edwards, shashoua, sterling

i'd like to see something like that but i imagine maghoma, owens, stylianides and tracey will probably be ahead of the younger options.

Depending on what happens with KWP next season might be worth giving him game time in this, though I hope he'd be on loan. Similarly could be worth giving Harrison more time up top. I see CCV being more involved in first team. It's anyone's guess what happens next year with those 3. Also what happens with Amos? while I really like Marsh might be worth giving Amos some game time at a good level to see if he can find last years form.

Just watching the game back (timings all video timings rather than match timings):
5:05 - lovely move between Bennetts and Roles but Oteh's touch let him down when he might have been through.
08:05 - another nice pass from Roles and nice play by Oteh this time but Tracey lacked a bit of composure.
10:41 - another excellent Roles pass, decent cross by Georgiou too and Oteh might have got a goal if he'd gambled.
Rest of the first half was fairly unimpressive.
31:12 - really good bit of play from Georgiou to show for the short corner, wriggle free and whip in a cross for Maghoma.
43:52 - lovely touch from Loft for the Bennetts
50:48 - great driving run by Zenon but he picked the wrong pass, with Sterling at the back post with a tap-in on. Instead Loft put it miles over.
52:50 - Loft gets the better of the last man well but misses the resulting chance.
54:19 - really naughty challenge by Roles, he has the devil in him!
55:12 - Walkes totally switched off and we nearly conceded as a result.

Roles and Marsh did well, Oteh was pretty poor. I've only seen Oteh a few times and I'm still not quite 'getting' him - though I know IGSpur likes him so I am reserving judgement!

Re: Oteh, I wouldn't say I rate him, just like you, I am reserving judgement. Whereas I previously thought he wasn't upto much, as the few times I'd seen him play or get minutes was when we struggling at the start of the season However since learning of his injury and the fact that he was about to be called up to England and sand also was lacking game time due to Sterling and Loft being ahead of him, I've mentally cleaned the slate. Last time I saw him I thought he could be a strong striker and thought he must have something about him to be looked at by England. I think next year he could be like Akindayini but more rounded. Throughout this tournament though, like quite a few of the players he hasn't impressed

True, but I could use similar arguments about the number of CM's in the current development squad, which in turn is causing us problems.

That's why I think we need to find decent academies to park some players who will not be good enough but we want to show that another year at a different academy will allow them to have a career at a decent level, just not Spurs

I've always thought one good idea would be to send out talented players or almost talented players who are being blocked by other talented on 3/4 year loans at 16/17 to FL clubs, on 'long term' loans. More than likely they will prove good enough for the first team within 2 years. The FL team will have incentive to play them as they will have them for at least a year or two, whereby if the parent club is impressed they bring them back if not they could potentially stay at that club or come back to the u21s. It will be a great way to develop players and work for both clubs. The player could come back once a week to train with parent club still to be monitored. Someone like Miller would benefit from that or even a player like Roles or Owens.

 

[IGSpur]

You are the most negative thinker, I ever know.

Yes, this Japan team are not their international team but they are not amateur. Japanese academy system is different to European system. Youth players can go to two different paths. First is to go directly to club academy. Second way is to play for your high school team. Then they will sign with professional club after they graduate. I beileve, if not all, most of them will be professional player.

This team is selected from the national high school tournament which is 94 years old tournament.

if you look at most of the Japanese football players profile, you'd see they played for their high school team before they join the professional football club. I will do the work for you.

Kaisuke Honda => Seiryo High School
Yugo Nagatomo => Higashi Fukuoka High School
Yuya Osako => Kagoshima Josei High School
Shinji Okazaki => Takigawa Daini High school

Finally, in the tournament of 50 minutes match(not even 90), we lost 3 matches gainst Japan Highschool (2013 winner) and RB Salzburg which has been winning this tornament 3 years in a row (2014, 2015 and 2016) and you want our players to quit on playing football. I don't know what to say

Oh, 2 players from this Japanese "amatuer" team are awarded midfield and striker of the tournament.


PS. I'm not native english speaker. Hope my english is good enough for everyone to understand.

Didn't know whether to give it a winner or informative, opted for winner. Thanks for the info

 

[Blake Griffin]

Depending on what happens with KWP next season might be worth giving him game time in this, though I hope he'd be on loan. Similarly could be worth giving Harrison more time up top. I see CCV being more involved in first team. It's anyone's guess what happens next year with those 3. Also what happens with Amos? while I really like Marsh might be worth giving Amos some game time at a good level to see if he can find last years form.

i didn't think onomah's age group would be eligible?

 

[IGSpur]

i didn't think onomah's age group would be eligible?

I think in the rules posted by SI it said 3 overage played are allowed born after 1st Jan 97. So that's any of Onomah, Harrison KWP, Goddard, basically any player that qualifies currently for International u19s

 

[Spursidol]

glover; muscatt, carter-vickers, tanganga, brown; marsh, oakley-boothe, kirby; edwards, shashoua, sterling

i'd like to see something like that but i imagine maghoma, owens, stylianides and tracey will probably be ahead of the younger options.

Don't think we played many over age players in u19 NextGen and haven't played that many in u21's (probably less than one per match on average), so unless something's changed we won't play too many in this competition either