Striker stats - are all these linked players REALLY any better?

[Hoowl]

How were they against weakened teams?

Newcastle. Liverpool. Wigan. Burnley, I think. Utd.

Anyway, every game he's scored in we've gone on to win, bar two, I believe. Both being Utd.

Newcastle.... The Liverpool defenders didn't look like they knew each other, Wigan were far more concerned about the upcoming league game...

 

[Danners9]

Games aren't played on paper.

Look how Bent links up with the team, or doesn't as the case is. Misjudges the flight of crosses, can't control, turns back to find someone etc etc. We've all seen it.

Or how Pavlyuchenko falls over or loses the ball when trying to shield it.

So what if they score 0.46 goals per 0.98 games or whatever. If they can't control a ball or judge a cross it seems a bit irrelevant. The chances lost because of these errors could be extra goals, for them or someone else.

 

[jimtheyid]

Lies, Damn lies and statistics.

 

[tommyt]

Games aren't played on paper.

Look how Bent links up with the team, or doesn't as the case is. Misjudges the flight of crosses, can't control, turns back to find someone etc etc. We've all seen it.

Or how Pavlyuchenko falls over or loses the ball when trying to shield it.

So what if they score 0.46 goals per 0.98 games or whatever. If they can't control a ball or judge a cross it seems a bit irrelevant. The chances lost because of these errors could be extra goals, for them or someone else.

There you go - great post.

Rep.

 

[SlickMongoose]

I do think brasil_spur makes a decent point though. Sure, stats are not everything. But we do have 4 very good strikers. There is no point in replacing them unless we can be certain of getting someone better. The majority of the premiership would bite our hands off for any of them.

 

[brasil_spur]

thats where you are wrong really mate. That would be like saying Bent is better than Rooney just because he scores more.

No he doesn't.

Rooney for Man Utd = 97 goals in 238 games = 0.41 goals/game ratio.
Rooney for England = 24 goals in 52 games = 0.46 goals/game ratio.

Bent for Spurs = 24 goals in 74 games = 0.32 goals/game ratio.
Bent for England = 0 goals in 4 games = 0 goals.game ratio.

It's quite evident even from the stats that Rooney is a better player.

In addition Rooney is often played out on the left for Utd as a winger rather than a stiker, so he needs to have more to his game when playing there. Bent is purely a goalscorer and should be judged as such.

So what if they score 0.46 goals per 0.98 games or whatever. If they can't control a ball or judge a cross it seems a bit irrelevant. The chances lost because of these errors could be extra goals, for them or someone else.

There is a massive difference in quality between strikers that score 0.98 per game (no that anyone does) and 0.46 goals per game.

The stat is an indictaor of how good a striker is, but yes i've admitted it doesn't provide a complete picture. But completley writing it off as meaningless is very short sighted IMO.

It's very rare to find a player with a high goal to game ratio that isn't highly rated, and although i've done no formal research into it, i would bet that a strikers value is very much proportional to his goal scoring ratio.

Gary Lineker was a player that had very little to offer other than a lot of goals and was one of this club and this country's best ever strikers.

Like i said, try to find me a player who doesn't score many goals and who has a high price tag or is thought of very highly.

 

[brasil_spur]

So what if they score 0.46 goals per 0.98 games or whatever. If they can't control a ball or judge a cross it seems a bit irrelevant.

Just to pull you up on this bit, here's a scenario:

Player A: Will score 36 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be fairly useless as setting up goals providing only 3 assists in those games, isn't great at set pieces and corners and doesn't track back well.

Player B: Will score 16 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be good at assists, getting 15 assists in those games. He will also provide a strong threat from set pieces and track back to help defend fairly frequently during the game.

Which player based purely on that information would you want us to sign this summer?

 

[scat1620]

Just to pull you up on this bit, here's a scenario:

Player A: Will score 36 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be fairly useless as setting up goals providing only 3 assists in those games, isn't great at set pieces and corners and doesn't track back well.

Player B: Will score 16 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be good at assists, getting 15 assists in those games. He will also provide a strong threat from set pieces and track back to help defend fairly frequently during the game.

Which player based purely on that information would you want us to sign this summer?

Player B, given that he's playing with a strike partner who is a good goalscorer. I think we have two good goalscorers in Keane and Defoe, so I think a Player B being paired with one of them would make for a better Spurs team than a Player A being paired with one of them.

 

[jimtheyid]

Just to pull you up on this bit, here's a scenario:

Player A: Will score 36 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be fairly useless as setting up goals providing only 3 assists in those games, isn't great at set pieces and corners and doesn't track back well.

Player B: Will score 16 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be good at assists, getting 15 assists in those games. He will also provide a strong threat from set pieces and track back to help defend fairly frequently during the game.

Which player based purely on that information would you want us to sign this summer?

Both! Player B will assist player A With a good few of his goals.

 

[brasil_spur]

Player B, given that he's playing with a strike partner who is a good goalscorer. I think we have two good goalscorers in Keane and Defoe, so I think a Player B being paired with one of them would make for a better Spurs team than a Player A being paired with one of them.

Seriously, you'd give up 20 league goals for an additional 13 assists and some tracking back. Eek

I'll just repeat that so i know i'm not going mental.....20 league goals.

I think you're being a bit short sighted, we'd be guaranteed top 5 position with our current squad plus a player that will get 38 league goals this season IMO.

 

[scat1620]

Seriously, you'd give up 20 league goals for an additional 13 assists and some tracking back. Eek

I'll just repeat that so i know i'm not going mental.....20 league goals.

I think you're being a bit short sighted, we'd be guaranteed top 5 position with our current squad plus a player that will get 38 league goals this season IMO.

13 additional assists is 13 additional goals. An assist isn't an assist unless a goal is scored at the end of it. So the difference between your hypothetical strikers is 7 goals, and on balance - and with the qualifier that I put in my original post (that you seemed to ignore) about Player B being paired with a good goalscorer, which I think both Defoe and Keane are - then I would prefer the tracking back and prowess at attacking and defending set pieces: I'd say that in the current Spurs team those attributes would be worth AT LEAST seven goals next season. In fact, I think you're the one being short sighted in this scenario, but I accept that that's just your opinion and this is just mine, so no hard feelings.

 

[Danners9]

Just to pull you up on this bit, here's a scenario:

Player A: Will score 36 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be fairly useless as setting up goals providing only 3 assists in those games, isn't great at set pieces and corners and doesn't track back well.

Player B: Will score 16 goals in 38 league games for Spurs this season, guaranteed. However he will be good at assists, getting 15 assists in those games. He will also provide a strong threat from set pieces and track back to help defend fairly frequently during the game.

Which player based purely on that information would you want us to sign this summer?

B. Because while that's 39 goals for, it's more goals against through laziness and an inability to defend.

A might score more, but not many by the looks of it (36+3 vs 16+15, as assists count as a goal as well), but his lack of defensive help may cost more.

For every goal you concede, you need to score 1 more.

 

[brasil_spur]

B. Because while that's 39 goals for, it's more goals against through laziness and an inability to defend.

A might score more, but not many by the looks of it (36+3 vs 16+15, as assists count as a goal as well), but his lack of defensive help may cost more.

For every goal you concede, you need to score 1 more.

I just don't think that we would conceed that many goals because of a strikers lack of tracking back, in fact i can't think of one goal that i've ever seen that i would blame on a striker.

For me it stacks up as 39 goals vs 31 goals.

 

[Danners9]

I just don't think that we would conceed that many goals because of a strikers lack of tracking back, in fact i can't think of one goal that i've ever seen that i would blame on a striker.

For me it stacks up as 39 goals vs 31 goals.

I find that perspective to be very simplistic.

I can think of plenty that are cleared by strikers, normally they go on the front post and head or kick clear any corner falling short. Imagine no one there, ball reaches an opposition player and there's more chance of an opposition goal.

Also, say we have Lennon and Modric (two very small players, ineffective in defending a high ball) upfield along with a striker. The opposition may decide to leave more back, but they might not. Fact is that 3 of the 11 Spurs players are around the half way line. 1 is fast, 2 others might not be, so how many defenders stay back? 2? plus the kicker and keeper. Leaves 7 vs 8 in the box, and one of those is the Spurs keeper.

I don't like that any defending has to be man for man and no one can lose their man or cover, just because the striker doesn't track back.

 

[THOWIG]

Put it this way who would you prefer? Dimitar Berbatov or Darren Bent?

 

[brasil_spur]

Put it this way who would you prefer? Dimitar Berbatov or Darren Bent?

Messi or SWP

Ronaldo (Brazilian one) or Mido

Kaka or Jenas

The list goes on.