Telegraph article on why we keep losing to the top teams

[Nocando]

Money

 

[Kendall]

Does it say "They have better players than Spurs"?

Liverpool don't.

 

[phoenix75]

Poch should stick this up in the changing room. Mind you, I'm unsure how many of them can actually read!

 

[Bobbins]

Liverpool don't.

They had one, and he was really good. Miles better than anything we had, so they finished above us. We used to have one, better than anyone else in the league, so we finished above them.

Now they don't have him anymore, that's why they're 9th and not a top team

 

[robin09]

Agree with a lot of what other people have said. A lot of the errors are just manifestations of what happens when you don't have the right mentality to compete at the highest level.

Yes, we may not have the ability of the rich sides, but the application that teams like Stoke show, doesn't cost anything.

 

[Bobbins]

Coincides with Bale leaving imo, not just with managerial changes. Players we have aren't that mentality strong in these big games, and when you have some like Bale you feel like you can win any game

Bale, Modric, VDV, King.

Winners.

Thing is, it's quite easy to be a winner when you've spent your life being better than everyone else around you.

I don't buy this mentality argument. Give me an example of a shit/average team with players less talented than the top teams, who actually go out and do well against those top teams, or finish above them in the league.

There aren't any. The closest you might get in recent years is Athletico.

The best players win the most games, and they generally develop winning mentalities because of it, not the other way round. It's not the mentalities that develop their talents (well, rarely). Dembele is the only player we currently have who I feel could actually become a better player with a serious change of attitude, and possibly Vertonghen.

Having brilliant players on your team also inspires the less talented players around them, who know that they have someone in their team who could win them the game. But these players rarely step up to become winners themselves, they simply enable the more talented players.

There are plenty of players out there with battling, never say die mentalities. Players who are desperate to win at all costs, players who have a bit of fight in them. But not many of them are really winners - most of them tend to be decent players who are popular with supporters because of their committment. Then someone like Suarez comes along and sticks three past them and they're not winning anything.

 

[Lufti]

There are plenty of players out there with battling, never say die mentalities out there. Players who are desperate to win at all costs, players who have a bit of fight in them. But not many of them are really winners - most of them tend to be decent players who are popular with supporters because of their committment. Then someone like Suarez comes along and sticks three past them and they're not winning anything.

Yeah but that's what I mean, our players don't have this mentality. When it comes down to it, in the big games, as soon as thing start going south it seems like we just fall apart and ship stupid goals. We had the most individual mistakes leading to goals last year. It's not a technical thing clearly as our defenders, as much as we might slate them, are clearly not the worst in the league, not even close. Which leads to one thing, a poor mentality. The sort of mentality which sees you pass back to Lloris from the kickoff at the start of a game..

 

[Bobbins]

Yeah but that's what I mean, our players don't have this mentality. When it comes down to it, in the big games, as soon as thing start going south it seems like we just fall apart and ship stupid goals. We had the most individual mistakes leading to goals last year. It's not a technical thing clearly as our defenders, as much as we might slate them, are clearly not the worst in the league, not even close. Which leads to one thing, a poor mentality. The sort of mentality which sees you pass back to Lloris from the kickoff at the start of a game..

Well this is ultimately it - I don't think we lack any winning mentality - against teams worse than us we usually play like we expect to win.

What we do have is a painful inferiority complex, so that when we play better teams, we capitulate and end up with a far worse result than we should.

Harry got rid of this attitude by and large, but he was massively helped by having world class wonder like Bale, VdV, Modric and King in the team.

Once the best players left, the others were left wondering how the could possibly win against the best teams. Timid folks like Dembele and Capoue suffer from that particularly it seems, but thrive when playing with good players. The only world class player we have left is Lloris, and in the big games the poor guy was just left to pick the ball out of the nrt every 5 minutes.

We do have a couple of fearless players in the squad at the moment - Walker, Lamela and Eriksen spring to mind, and Chadli's growing in confidence. Hopefully the Arsenal result will have done the rest of the team some god.

 

[Spurs_Bear]

Well this is ultimately it - I don't think we lack any winning mentality - against teams worse than us we usually play like we expect to win.

What we do have is a painful inferiority complex, so that when we play better teams, we capitulate and end up with a far worse result than we should.

Harry got rid of this attitude by and large, but he was massively helped by having world class wonder like Bale, VdV, Modric and King in the team.

Once the best players left, the others were left wondering how the could possibly win against the best teams. Timid folks like Dembele and Capoue suffer from that particularly it seems, but thrive when playing with good players. The only world class player we have left is Lloris, and in the big games the poor guy was just left to pick the ball out of the nrt every 5 minutes.

We do have a couple of fearless players in the squad at the moment - Walker, Lamela and Eriksen spring to mind, and Chadli's growing in confidence. Hopefully the Arsenal result will have done the rest of the team some god.

Not sure that's really true, bit simplistic in my view, we didn't draw with Arsenal and beat Liverpool in Redknapp's first couple of games because we had world class players, it was more down to the carefree, motivational approach, releasing the shackles so to speak, can be a better tactic against superior sides but maybe not necessarily against the weaker sides, as we saw throughout.

And players like Dembele owned games while playing for a worse team than us, surrounded by worse players at Fulham, at Old Trafford for example so don't really agree with that either. For me the problem is our players are a bunch of strangers and don't fight for each other, hence we might look ok until we go a goal down, then seem to capitulate. That's what seemed to happen last year, hopefully Poch puts a stop to it, I am encouraged by how angry he was after the Liverpool game and our improved performance at the Emirates. Saturday is huge though, we'll see how far we've come.

 

[BuryMeInEngland]

When we had Bale, VdV, Modric playing for us we could overlook defensive errors because there was always a good chance someone would do something spectacular to at least give us a chance. But now we're just a pedestrian team playing pedestrian football. We'll do ok but it will never be spectacular and we'll never really compete with the top teams.

 

[Shanks]

Come on, the Liverpool 3-0 was in no-way like last year.
But yeah, we've been shit against the big boys for far too long!

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Some of it's ok. His split second examples of our fullbacks is bollocks though, especially the one with Rose.

Like you've never seen Rose in that position before? If you haven't then you don't watch Spurs that often.

 

[Gaz_Gammon]

Poch should stick this up in the changing room. Mind you, I'm unsure how many of them can actually read!

But the article does have lots of pictures.....

 

[Hoddtastic72]

I like the way it basically says 'we left out Man Utd because Spurs have beaten them and that wouldn't fit the article'.

The exception which proves the rule

 

[mpickard2087]

Like you've never seen Rose in that position before? If you haven't then you don't watch Spurs that often.

He's using last seasons arguments (though, he is I guess looking at results over a couple of seasons. Yet doesn't make any mention of improved application by individuals...), and then dug out a terrible example from the Liverpool game. The reason Rose was that high up the pitch is that he was pushed high for our goal kick and then ran forward even further to compete for the ball, with plenty of cover who were much more at fault.

It may or may not have some truth to it in the past, the split-second example he uses though is lazy and in my opinion incorrect.

 

[Kendall]

They had one, and he was really good. Miles better than anything we had, so they finished above us. We used to have one, better than anyone else in the league, so we finished above them.

Now they don't have him anymore, that's why they're 9th and not a top team

But still thrashed us...

The thing that annoys me is that whilst some of these teams do have better players, we're not so poor that we are uncompetitive and that we can't give them a game.

 

[SpursSince1980]

Hate to admit it, but that made me laugh. Gotta take it for what it is... tongue in cheek. If it the journo wanted to be serious, the article could be summarized in a tweet: Spurs lose badly to top four sides because some players in team lack grit, patience, and discipline, when it matters most. #chokeartists

 

[Bobbins]

Not sure that's really true, bit simplistic in my view, we didn't draw with Arsenal and beat Liverpool in Redknapp's first couple of games because we had world class players, it was more down to the carefree, motivational approach, releasing the shackles so to speak, can be a better tactic against superior sides but maybe not necessarily against the weaker sides, as we saw throughout.

And players like Dembele owned games while playing for a worse team than us, surrounded by worse players at Fulham, at Old Trafford for example so don't really agree with that either. For me the problem is our players are a bunch of strangers and don't fight for each other, hence we might look ok until we go a goal down, then seem to capitulate. That's what seemed to happen last year, hopefully Poch puts a stop to it, I am encouraged by how angry he was after the Liverpool game and our improved performance at the Emirates. Saturday is huge though, we'll see how far we've come.

First bit - I think Redknapp's biggest achievement was in making the players feel like thye could do anything, and ultimately perform at their very best because he made them feel ten feet tall. But we did also have world class players at that time, with Modric and King in the side.

Anyhoo, I don't think it's too simplistic to suggest that the best players win the most matches - isn't that what we see every season in reality? Sure there are some great players outside the top four/five teams, but the top teams have the greatest concentrations of top players. I think it's simplistic because ultimately, it's true.

Your point is still relevant though because the best players can be very much augmented by the best managers, as well as gimped by rubbish managers in turn. It's a combination, but again the top teams tend to hire the best managers, whereas we are always feeding from a lower table.

I think much is made of Dembele's performance against United but he wasn't doing it to teams up and down the country every week, otherwise a top team would've been after him, and not us. He's a decent player but at Fulham he was probably the best player in the team - which as I mentioned can make a player play at the top of his game, just as it did with us and Bale, or Berbatov, or Carrick.

I agree that the lack of familiarity in our squad is a massive problem - it's why I regularly rant against Levy's player trading for the sake of it, it massively damages the team and the fan's relationship with the guys on the pitch. Same goes for managers.

 

[Bulletspur]

Come on, the Liverpool 3-0 was in no-way like last year.
But yeah, we've been shit against the big boys for far too long!

I also think that the 0-3 loss to Liverpool had a bit to do with complacency. New Manager, trouncing QPR the week before, the Media spouting how good we appeared and "underrating" Liverpool in the absence of Suarez, considering that when we were trouncing QPR they struggled against Southampton.

 

[cliff jones]

Bale, Modric, VDV, King.

Winners.

Thing is, it's quite easy to be a winner when you've spent your life being better than everyone else around you.

I don't buy this mentality arguement. Give me an example of a shit/average team with players less talented than the top teams, who actually go out and do well against those top teams, or finish above them in the league.

There aren't any. The closest you might get in recent years is Athletico.

The best players win the most games, and they generally development winning mentalities because of it, not the other way round. It's not the mentalities that develop their talents (well, rarely). Dembele is the only player we currently have who I feel could actually become a better player with a serious change of attitude, and possibly Vertonghen.

Having brilliant players on your team also inspires the less talented players around them, who know that they have someone in their team who could win them the game. But these players rarely step up to become winners themselves, they simply enable the more talented players.

There are plenty of players out there with battling, never say die mentalities out there. Players who are desperate to win at all costs, players who have a bit of fight in them. But not many of them are really winners - most of them tend to be decent players who are popular with supporters because of their committment. Then someone like Suarez comes along and sticks three past them and they're not winning anything.

the team many would put forward in the context of an article like this is Everton. man for man, they have very often risen to the challenge against the sky four or five, yeah mullered on the oddcoccasion but morecoften than not competitive, seemingly with several players really up for the battle, full of passion for the shirt. or as close as you get to that in the modern game.