The Banana incident

[Johnny J]

In the current climate, with the polices current mandate of positive charging for certain issues, including any racially aggravated offences, if there was even on shred of inclination or evidence that this was in fact racially aggravated then this guy would be charged with racially aggravated common assault or racially aggravated harassment, both of which are can be tried by indictment. The fact that he’s not being charged with any racially aggravated offence is good enough for me to think he is telling the truth, he is not racist and this act was not racially motivated.

The police will investigate and push the cps to charge on anything that they feel has a reasonable chance of conviction in court, in fact that’s the criteria for charging, and with racially aggravated offences they’ll always investigate on the basis that it was racially aggravated if there is any suspicion of that. Clearly they don’t have any concerns about this being a racist act so if they don’t, nobody in here, the media or anywhere else is entitled to assume this fellow is anything other than a pratt who did something stupid when angry.

He deserves his banning, he’s not a racist.

I respect your view, but as a lawyer (as I think you are?), I disagree.

The test for a decision to prosecute is twofold. First, there must be a "realistic" (not reasonable) chance of conviction, meaning it has to be more likely than not. Second, prosecution must be in the public interest.

Just because the CPS doesn't charge someone with something doesn't mean they didn't commit the act in question. It also doesn't mean they don't "have any concerns" about racial elements. The police and CPS usually have plenty of concerns about anyone who they think about charging or prosecuting.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is the legal test, and not the one that applies in the court of public opinion. Everyone is absolutely entitled to form their own conclusion on this chap's behaviour, irrespective of whether or not he's charged, and what with.

 

[LexingtonSpurs]

Yeah, sorry. There are no excuses that make sense here. Racist or not - you simply have to know better than to throw a banana peel at a player.

 

[SargeantMeatCurtains]

I vote to change the thread title to “the bananadrama”

 

[Mr.D]

Fun fact 2*: it's impossible to go for a Chinese meal without having a banana fritter for afters.


*that's a fact, Jack.

 

[BringBack_leGin]

I respect your view, but as a lawyer (as I think you are?), I disagree.

The test for a decision to prosecute is twofold. First, there must be a "realistic" (not reasonable) chance of conviction, meaning it has to be more likely than not. Second, prosecution must be in the public interest.

Just because the CPS doesn't charge someone with something doesn't mean they didn't commit the act in question. It also doesn't mean they don't "have any concerns" about racial elements. The police and CPS usually have plenty of concerns about anyone who they think about charging or prosecuting.

"Innocent until proven guilty" is the legal test, and not the one that applies in the court of public opinion. Everyone is absolutely entitled to form their own conclusion on this chap's behaviour, irrespective of whether or not he's charged, and what with.

Failed lawyer sadly, gave up after years of bouncing between firms.

Ok, realistic rather than reasonable, but in terms of the charging part, I’ve seen close up through someone close to me this year how much more scrutiny an allegation will be put under by the cps and the police if the alleged offence is racially aggravated in nature. I even introduced the person to a criminal defence firm I used to clerk for and had many a private conversation with a London met friend of mine as the investigation into him/ case against him evolved.

from what I’ve learnt over this process, If there was even a slight inkling that this incident was racially aggravated, it will be investigated on that basis as there is currently a positive charging policing in place for racially aggravated offences.

 

['O Zio]

Yeah, sorry. There are no excuses that make sense here. Racist or not - you simply have to know better than to throw a banana peel at a player.

I'd even broaden that to "you simply have to know better than to throw anything at a player". That's why I've got no sympathy for the guy really, racist or not, he's still commited an offence that is usually punished with a banning order so he's getting what he deserved either way.

 

[Johnny J]

Failed lawyer sadly, gave up after years of bouncing between firms.

Ok, realistic rather than reasonable, but in terms of the charging part, I’ve seen close up through someone close to me this year how much more scrutiny an allegation will be put under by the cps and the police if the alleged offence is racially aggravated in nature. I even introduced the person to a criminal defence firm I used to clerk for and had many a private conversation with a London met friend of mine as the investigation into him/ case against him evolved.

from what I’ve learnt over this process, If there was even a slight inkling that this incident was racially aggravated, it will be investigated on that basis as there is currently a positive charging policing in place for racially aggravated offences.

I agree that any racial element will usually be aggressively pursued, and don't doubt your (anecdotal, but still relevant) experience, which I hope worked out OK.

That aside, the part of your post I disagreed with most was the notion that if the police and CPS didn't have any issue with him (on racial stuff), then "no one else is entitled to" either. Just as an example, the US authorities didn't charge either of JonBenet Ramsey's parents in connection with her death, but many people who've looked at all the evidence (including me) think it absurd that they didn't have some part to play, at least in covering something up (long ransom note written in mother's handwriting with a pen that was next to the pad; father prevents police searching house after she was reported missing, tells them he'll look himself and immediately finds her body in a basement room).

Anyway, a bit off topic, but a good discussion.

 

[Gassin's finest]

I want pies chucked at the league cup game.

Just as well it's not the lane then... Those chicken balti, sorry, molten lava pies were brutal...

 

[Spurs 1961]

Needs to be banned for throwing anything on the pitch, at a player. And banned for a double lifetime for the stupidity to throw a banana skin. How dumb can anyway be ... well maybe footballers and some retro fans

 

[EastLondonYid]

Yeah, sorry. There are no excuses that make sense here. Racist or not - you simply have to know better than to throw a banana peel at a player.

Agree....but surely you can see the importance of it being a moronic, idiotic act rather than a racist one which i believe it wasn't.

 

[mil1lion]

I might bake a honey cake and take it along. i can see that doing some serious damage. Can get extremely sticky

It would be seen as an attack on the Diabetic community though

 

[mil1lion]

It's actually racist to assume it's racist just because it's a banana skin

 

[dontcallme]

It's actually racist to assume it's racist just because it's a banana skin

No it isn’t.

 

['O Zio]

It's actually racist to assume it's racist just because it's a banana skin

Presumptious yes, racist no.

 

['O Zio]

Agree....but surely you can see the importance of it being a moronic, idiotic act rather than a racist one which i believe it wasn't.

Yes it's an important distinction and if he really didn't mean it in that way then he shouldn't have his name dragged through the mud as a racist. However, I have zero sympathy if he gets banned from going to games because, as I said in my other post, even if it'd been an orange skin with no racial connotations, that's still a banning order and he's still an idiot.

 

[mil1lion]

No it isn’t.

Presumptious yes, racist no.

It's actually racist to deny that it's racist

Seriously though, I can understand why it might be questioned as such. However it shouldn't be assumed that it was a racist attack. If it was meant to be a racist attack I'm sure there would be some verbal racism as well. That didn't seem to happen so I think it was just an act of anger and stupidity.

What I dont get though is why fans get so angry at football games. You see it all the time when a decision goes against your team or your team concedes a goal. I get that football is a passionate sport but why people get so physically mad and lose their shit I dont know. It's just a game of football at the end of the day. Calm the fuck down!

 

[mattyspurs]

I want pies chucked at the league cup game.

Just don't chuck a banaofee pie please riggs...for fucks sake!

 

[EastLondonYid]

Yes it's an important distinction and if he really didn't mean it in that way then he shouldn't have his name dragged through the mud as a racist. However, I have zero sympathy if he gets banned from going to games because, as I said in my other post, even if it'd been an orange skin with no racial connotations, that's still a banning order and he's still an idiot.

Yes he should and will get banned , but not for life. come on.

 

['O Zio]

Yes he should and will get banned , but not for life. come on.

The trouble with it is even if we accept this guy's story that it was a rush of blood to the head and he just grabbed the first thing he saw and threw it in a blind rage, then you have to accept that he didn't think at all about the consequences and whether or not he could hurt someone.

OK so in this instance it was a banana so despite causing this whole racism enquiry, it was unlikely to injure someone, but what about the next time he has a blind rage and the nearest thing to him happens to be a coin/bottle/rock etc.? If he's really that incapable of controlling himself at a football match to the point when he's throwing any random object within his reach at people then, rightly or wrongly, in this day and age that's enough to get you banned.

I've got little to no sympathy at all for him on this one to be honest because everyone knows that's what it's like at football nowadays. I'm not saying it's right, but everyone knows that's the way it is so he can't really have any complaints. Like I said in one of my other posts, if his main defence is "I didn't break that rule, I broke a slightly less serious rule instead" then the fact still remains that he broke the rules and for at least the past 10-15 years there's been a pretty much zero tolerance policy on this kind of thing so it can hardly be news to him.

 

[EastLondonYid]

The trouble with it is even if we accept this guy's story that it was a rush of blood to the head and he just grabbed the first thing he saw and threw it in a blind rage, then you have to accept that he didn't think at all about the consequences and whether or not he could hurt someone.

OK so in this instance it was a banana so despite causing this whole racism enquiry, it was unlikely to injure someone, but what about the next time he has a blind rage and the nearest thing to him happens to be a coin/bottle/rock etc.? If he's really that incapable of controlling himself at a football match to the point when he's throwing any random object within his reach at people then, rightly or wrongly, in this day and age that's enough to get you banned.

I've got little to no sympathy at all for him on this one to be honest because everyone knows that's what it's like at football nowadays. I'm not saying it's right, but everyone knows that's the way it is so he can't really have any complaints. Like I said in one of my other posts, if his main defence is "I didn't break that rule, I broke a slightly less serious rule instead" then the fact still remains that he broke the rules and for at least the past 10-15 years there's been a pretty much zero tolerance policy on this kind of thing so it can hardly be news to him.

So you think he should be banned for life ? yes or no?

So where do we draw the line, footballers headbutt other players in the same rush of blood as you describe, possibly indangering them far more than a banana skin, which is what it was btw, are you going to ban them for life? last time i checked they get 3 games for potentially really harming a fellow player .

It was wrong , and he will be punished, but lets not go ott ffs.