The Case For Frank de Boer...continued

[SpurSince57]

I agree with this, but why do you have reservations when you seem to think no matter who we appoint won't change the grand scheme of things anyway?

Because there seems to be unthinking support for both candidates, with all the stress on the positives and none on the negatives. It was exactly the same with Ramos.

 

[Glennsen]

Fact is a lot of FdB supporters just see a big name and a few trophies and don't bother taking into account that his appointment is just a bigger risk as Poch.

I see it the other way. Poch has failed before, with 2 wins-3 draws - 8 loss he got fired at Espanyol. The new coach managed 9-8-7 and saved them from relagation. They were bottom 20 when he got fired, ended in 13. The team looked utterly bad, but were on paper far too good to be bottom. They ended 14 this year where they usally do.

Poch has failed before, FDB has not only had sucess but has copied it three times.
1-1-1-1 vs
8-14-20(sacked)/14-8

Every coach is a risk, but I would rather us gamble on a proven winner than someone who has failed before.

 

[SpurSince57]

So you think we have improved since losing those players?

Also, you were the one who compared Ajax to Spurs, I was merely pointing out that improvement in points doesn't mean improvement in team as our league position has indicated.

Well, we haven't got worse, have we?

I said we were roughly comparable in quality, insofar as these things can be compared between different leagues. Spurs' European record is certainly better.

 

[SpurSince57]

I see it the other way. Poch has failed before, with 2 wins-3 draws - 8 loss he got fired at Espanyol. The new coach managed 9-8-7 and saved them from relagation. They were bottom 20 when he got fired, ended in 13. The team looked utterly bad, but were on paper far too good to be bottom. They ended 14 this year where they usally do.

Poch has failed before, FDB has not only had sucess but has copied it three times.
1-1-1-1 vs
8-14-20(sacked)/14-8

Every coach is a risk, but I would rather us gamble on a proven winner than someone who has failed before.

Ramos was a 'proven winner' and a brilliant tactician. Allegedly.

 

[beats1]

It's a fact, is it? I'd like some solid statistical evidence to back up this assertion.

I have shown before that teams from 8 to 20th last season and probably this season were picking up less points can be asked to do it again

Because there seems to be unthinking support for both candidates, with all the stress on the positives and none on the negatives. It was exactly the same with Ramos.

Was it though?

The thing was that Ramos once agains was given a strong squad, he didnt build it himself it was the DoF who had found some great gems.

Plus he had only had 2 good season in his entire career. Sevilla were also happy for him to be replaced by his no. 2

Ramos got hired purely on the basis he had won the Uefa Cup(though he did win it twice) and the same could be said about AVB. His performances in the Uefa Cup was also at a result of him placing importance on the cup competitions more than the league which cost him his job with us(saving Ledley for the Uefa cup)

 

[spurs9]

I have to admit I have been a bit over critical about FDB at times, but also wanted to assess both managers and see both as having a strong case. I have also been doing so as there seem to be some very one sided views from some FDB supporters and as such I'm more inclined to make posts to suggest he's not the safer, surer bet that some people make him out to be.

For me, both are incredibly promising managers but far from the finished article. I prefer Poch because I like his style, and because I think he's got more chance of adapting quickly (which sadly is paramount with our fans and board) as he did at Soton and based on his PL experience. I think FDB may well have more going for him as a coach overall but I just think Poch is the right guy for this particular club.

It is funny that a lot of us get drawn into these debates with each other, thinking we are addressing someone who's being ignorant to one coach or the other when we actually rate both coaches but have a slight preference.

E.g. I want either Poch or FDB to come in, and would be happy with either. I see someone say we'd be a joke to offer it to Poch as he's a nobody from a lesser PL side and hasn't won anything, whilst FDB is the only logical choice. I then reply to said person explaining why Poch isn't such a ridiculous choice and why FDB can't be seen as a sure thing. You then see my response to that person and think I'm being harsh on FDB and it all starts again!

TBH, I didn't have you in mind when I made that statement. It is just starting to annoy me that certain Poch fans are acting all high and mighty, like they are judging both fairly and "FDB supporters" are being uninformed, when the some Poch fans are doing the same thing.

BTW, what makes you think Poch will adapt quicker than FDB (not saying you are wrong)?

 

[spurs9]

Well, we haven't got worse, have we?

I said we were roughly comparable in quality, insofar as these things can be compared between different leagues. Spurs' European record is certainly better.

Yes, I do think we are worse. We are worse this year than the year we had Bale and we were worse that season than the season we had Bale, Modric and VDV, but I guess that is just my opinion.

What you can't argue with though is that we are worse, when compared with our rivals, which is reflected in out league position.

Also, Ajax have got better when compared with their rivals, despite lossing more key players and have a worse academy.

BTW, I'm not com paring Ajax with Spurs or EPL with Eredivisie, simply Ajax with their rivals and Spurs with their rivals.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

Because there seems to be unthinking support for both candidates, with all the stress on the positives and none on the negatives. It was exactly the same with Ramos.

That wasn't the case at all, there were plenty of people pointing out his (what 15 ?) years in the Spanish wilderness and pointing out much credit was on Monchi's (Sevilla DOF) shoulders.

 

[SpartanSpur]

TBH, I didn't have you in mind when I made that statement. It is just starting to annoy me that certain Poch fans are acting all high and mighty, like they are judging both fairly and "FDB supporters" are being uninformed, when the some Poch fans are doing the same thing.

BTW, what makes you think Poch will adapt quicker than FDB (not saying you are wrong)?

My reasons are:-

-He appeared to make his mark on Southampton very quickly when he arrived
-he fully knows what to expect from the PL in terms of competition and what tactics work here better than others. He has served an apprenticeship if you will.
-his system has got results in this league, and we have the players to fit his style at the club already.
-he has experience of settling in at a new club after having a decent spell at another.
-he has experience of playing in a league where he has to compete with an equal number of weaker teams and stronger teams.
-his outwardly attacking style is a crowd pleaser and as such he is likely to excite the fans and satisfy the board if he starts well. It's less subtle than FDBs.
-he has experienced the media over here and overcame a tough time where he was not a popular replacement for an English manager that probably didn't deserve the boot (and we know how the media feel about that stuff).

Now this could all stand for naught when he arrives, and FDB could still start quickly, he did take over mid-season and win the league after all, but that's my take. I think he is a better short term option but still has the potential for a longer term project, and these days you can't have the latter without some short term success.

 

[spurs9]

My reasons are:-

-He appeared to make his mark on Southampton very quickly when he arrived
-he fully knows what to expect from the PL in terms of competition and what tactics work here better than others. He has served an apprenticeship if you will.
-his system has got results in this league, and we have the players to fit his style at the club already.
-he has experience of settling in at a new club after having a decent spell at another.
-he has experience of playing in a league where he has to compete with an equal number of weaker teams and stronger teams.
-his outwardly attacking style is a crowd pleaser and as such he is likely to excite the fans and satisfy the board if he starts well. It's less subtle than FDBs.
-he has experienced the media over here and overcame a tough time where he was not a popular replacement for an English manager that probably didn't deserve the boot (and we know how the media feel about that stuff).

Now this could all stand for naught when he arrives, and FDB could still start quickly, he did take over mid-season and win the league after all, but that's my take. I think he is a better short term option but still has the potential for a longer term project, and these days you can't have the latter without some short term success.

All excellent points. Personally I think the environment he will be in at Spurs will completely different to what he has at Southampton and as a result we may have a slower start than we would like (I also think the same thing with FDB).

Whoever comes in I pray our fans have patience.

 

[mill]

There are 3 articles on page 3 and I read all of them and can't see what you are referring to. Please could you copy and paste the quote about Poch's desire to win.

Also, is it in the York Press, the Guardian or EPSN article?

I can't find it now either lol, I actually posted it in this thread a few days back, I'll find it tonight after work

 

[jambreck]

Every coach is a risk, but I would rather us gamble on a proven winner than someone who has failed before.

I don't get this kind of thinking at all.

Read pretty much any book or article about people who have succeeded in life and there will be story after story about how they failed; about how they learnt from failure; about how they tried again; and again; and again; until they succeeded; about how failure was crucial to their success.

I'd far rather we have a manager who has experienced failure - who knows how to deal with it and learn from it - than have a manager who thinks he knows all the answers, who has never tasted failure and who might be unable to handle it when it first strikes.

Like AVB.....

 

[Monkey boy]

I don't get this kind of thinking at all.

Read pretty much any book or article about people who have succeeded in life and there will be story after story about how they failed; about how they learnt from failure; about how they tried again; and again; and again; until they succeeded; about how failure was crucial to their success.

I'd far rather we have a manager who has experienced failure - who knows how to deal with it and learn from it - than have a manager who thinks he knows all the answers, who has never tasted failure and who might be unable to handle it when it first strikes.

Like AVB.....

Just when you think Mick McCarthy is out of the running BOOM!! you suck us back in

 

[SpartanSpur]

All excellent points. Personally I think the environment he will be in at Spurs will completely different to what he has at Southampton and as a result we may have a slower start than we would like (I also think the same thing with FDB).

Whoever comes in I pray our fans have patience.

Yeah this is vital. Hopefully this season has given some perspective. As long as there is something positive to go on hopefully they'll get the time they need

 

[JUSTINSIGNAL]

I see it the other way. Poch has failed before, with 2 wins-3 draws - 8 loss he got fired at Espanyol. The new coach managed 9-8-7 and saved them from relagation. They were bottom 20 when he got fired, ended in 13. The team looked utterly bad, but were on paper far too good to be bottom. They ended 14 this year where they usally do.

Poch has failed before, FDB has not only had sucess but has copied it three times.
1-1-1-1 vs
8-14-20(sacked)/14-8

Every coach is a risk, but I would rather us gamble on a proven winner than someone who has failed before.

A proven winner with the best team in a weak league?

We are far from the best in the league so how do you think he will adapt to not having the most talented players?

Surely a coach who's managed a team that are not the best in the league and got the best from them is more suitable for us? Even though in your opinion Poch has tasted failure surely that is a plus because the best coaches learn from failure and it improves them?

 

[dagraham]

A p


A proven winner with the best team in a weak league?

We are far from the best in the league so how do you think he will adapt to not having the most talented players?

Surely a coach who's managed team that are not the best in the league and got the best from them is more suitable for us? Even though in your opinion Poch has tasted failure surely that is a plus because the best coaches learn from failure and it improves them?

My choice is Benitez but I'm resigned to the fact that it's not going to happen now. I genuinely keep changing my mind on whether I'd prefer De Boer or Poch but I think I'm now leaning towards Poch. De Boer just has too many echoes of AVB about him.

 

[spurs9]

A p


A proven winner with the best team in a weak league?

We are far from the best in the league so how do you think he will adapt to not having the most talented players?

Surely a coach who's managed team that are not the best in the league and got the best from them is more suitable for us? Even though in your opinion Poch has tasted failure surely that is a plus because the best coaches learn from failure and it improves them?

As squad of individuals, they are not the best in the league. They are the best team in league because of their manager.

 

[Grey Fox]

Above all this club needs leadership and a winning mentality, hence LVG would have been the ideal manager, just can't see how we go from him to Poch. The club needs dragging up off its knees, scrubbing down from top to bottom and start believing again and that includes the fans getting behind the team every game whatever is happening on the pitch. Palace supporters are a great example of proper support.

 

[Mr Pink]

Above all this club needs leadership and a winning mentality, hence LVG would have been the ideal manager, just can't see how we go from him to Poch. The club needs dragging up off its knees, scrubbing down from top to bottom and start believing again and that includes the fans getting behind the team every game whatever is happening on the pitch. Palace supporters are a great example of proper support.

We need a proper coach who can use the squad properly, play players in their best positions and ultimately get us playing to a sum larger than our individual parts. We have the squad, bar a few tweaks, we need the right coach to get the best out it.

That's why Pochettino is being strongly considered, and rightly so.

 

[HoltbiusMac]

Goats latest bleet is interesting.

Still can't decide who I'd prefer out of the two of them.