The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE DEADLINE

[Lea]

I'm not dismissing anyone. I just find it difficult to understand their opinion.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

However, there's certain things that have happened that are relevant to this discussion regardless of opinions.

Ie our approach to most transfer transfer negotiations.

Again we are going in around in circles, I don’t question your opinion because it is yours don’t question mine. We all think differently and see things differently. Seen thousands of games and heard thousand different opinions that is football. My argument is simple toxicity in the ground serves only on side and it is the opponent. Our stadium turned into easy picking because of our toxic atmosphere so let respect each opinions. ???

 

[Lea]

Controversial point incoming

If we give equal validity to poorly-formed opinions as we do to those with insight or reasoning then we end up with a problem.
People are entitled to their opinion-and to voice it. That’s what makes the forum after all. It doesn’t make them right though

Poor formed opinion ??‍who decides which is “poor formed” it’s an opinion nothing more nothing less. Ppl see things in different ways it is simple disagreeing with your opinion it doesn't mean poorly formed. This is very disrespectful to others. Not controversial just disrespectful. Not going to respond to your comments anymore.

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

who decides which is “poor formed”

I do.

So let's wrap up this debate. You can agree to disagree with each other, and we can get back to more Spurs-based discussion.

TIA
Bluto

 

[BENNO]

We needed a CB, we made that a priority, we didn't get one, we failed to add what we needed.

Can i ask you a question. You've been very vocal about us not getting a CB and clearly your feeling is that it's again down to a lack of desire to push the boat out & pay what is needed to get a deal done. Yet the only CB seriously linked for this window was Hincapie, who's young, foreign, unproven in the league & definitely not the finished article (i'd seen some posts calling him rash and pointing to the amount of cards he picks up).

With that in mind, exactly how much difference do you honestly think he'd have made given we have Lenglet , Davies and Dier for that position, all who are fit and available, who have worked extensively in a Conte system and are seasoned experienced players who'll play to a certain level week in week out ?

I can 100% see Hincapie (or a similar youngish prospect) thriving after a pre season working for Conte, but i honestly find it difficult to see a relatively inexperienced defender being thrown into our current team & being a game changing step up from what we already have. Had it been Skriniar for example, yeah absolutely, or Gvardiol (despite his young age) but Hincapie ? can't see it myself, i honestly think that had he signed he'd have been integrated very slowly & made little discernible difference this season, and i think Conte / Paratici would have thought the same.

 

[Dazzazzad]

Well the reason I've heard, and I haven't had it corroborated(so take it with a large pinch of salt) which is why I haven't posted it until now, was that we couldn't shift Sanchez or Tanganga so we never pushed it. We were waiting for one of them to firm up first. Thing is you keep saying that big clubs don't usually get 3 in in January, and you are right they don't(so I've answered your question) but is that because it's so very difficult to do so, or because they don't really need to because they usually get what they need in the Summer. No one can tell me how hard things are in January, I know far better than most the added difficulties the winter window brings, but it's far from impossible. As I've said previously.... "We have wanted Porro for a good while, yet leave it until last minute to try and shave a few quid off(which we didn't btw). It's 100% a deliberate strategy to wait until the last week because in the past there's usually been more value. When you are trying to buy other clubs best players though, it doesn't happen because be it the beginning of the window or the end they still don't want to sell.

Regardless of how much revenue comes in Levy is never willing to push the boat out or take even the smallest risk to push us forward. In January we spent a month haggling for a player we paid full price for, and signed a player on loan who fell in our lap. You keep saying "The big clubs never address three major problems in January", and I've said "you're right because they address them in the Summer and then just need to tweak in January". That's the point. You keep comparing us to the other big 6 clubs, but when it comes to transfers we are not a big 6 club because we don't act like one, if we were we wouldn't be having the same post mortem after every single transfer window be it Summer or Winter.

If we were skint I'd accept it, I'd understand it, and it's why all the way through the stadium build and NDP I made allowances. I defended Levy to the hilt because he was right in what he said regarding needing that income to compete for the bigger players. "It would be a game changer". Fact is though It hasn't made the slightest bit of difference to the way we negotiate through the transfer market, we are still trying to be cute with every deal despite having the best income v outgoings differential and the highest season ticket prices in the world.

You don't think the summer window was different, Trix? Quite big outlay (particularly for a backup in richy) and no waiting around for the end of the window - I think most were signed before the pre season tour started.

 

[Thenewcat]

I don’t know why you replied to me and then deleted the part where I admitted that my point was controversial?

I understand that people do not always agree.
And it would be totally unrealistic to think that my views will be enough to change peoples minds. I don’t think there’s anyone on this board prepared to change their mind

I think the biggest source of disagreement in these boards particularly appears to be between those with ambition to win(and who therefore challenge the MO of levy) and those who seem to be happy to muddle along (and therefore seem to make excuses for levy’s MO)

of course it’s more nuanced than that (for example, I’d happily keep Davies as LCB backup, I’m ok waiting until the summer to replace Hugo. I don’t expect us to sign gvardiol and hakimi for £300m) but equally I’m fed up hearing these cop out excuses that justify the ‘bare minimum’ approach on every window

There isn’t anyone in the last few pages of this debate who is happy with Levy’s MO and is happy to ‘muddle along’ and it’s really disingenuous to frame it that way as it implies the debate is between people who agree with you and lesser beings with no ambition.

Since I’m pretty sure I’m one of those lesser beings in your mind, let me reiterate: I don’t agree with Levy’s MO and want him out of the club. I think we should be aiming much higher than we are. The only difference between you and me is that I think I have more realistic expectations of what is possible within a certain time frame - specifically that (as ever with chelsea and their current insanity as the caveat) nobody buys 4 first team upgrades in January. They just don’t and it’s a demonstrable fact. Why that has been repeatedly conflated with being happy with levy, not understanding that his approach over multiple years has caused problems and the various other criticisms I’ve no idea.

I’m definitely more optimistic than some about how close our squad it (which isn’t the same as less ambitious) - like you I’d be happy with Davies as a backup LCB, perhaps unlike you I’d be happy to keep Sanchez and Dier as backups too if we buy 2 new CBs. I think even with one more CB (that we should have bought in January) our squad would be in pretty good shape, and in the summer I’d like a GK, at least one (ideally 2) CBs, a creative player and a youngster or two.

like I’ve said elsewhere I actually think the ins have been pretty good in the last few windows, with the glaring exception of not addressing CB. Levy’s management of outs has been catastrophic, and I don’t trust him to get Harry to put pen to paper which is my biggest concern of all.

that’s my take on the squad and the state of the club. You can agree with all, some or none of it, but it doesn’t mean I’m less ambitious than you

 

[vegassd]

I don’t know why you replied to me and then deleted the part where I admitted that my point was controversial?

I understand that people do not always agree.
And it would be totally unrealistic to think that my views will be enough to change peoples minds. I don’t think there’s anyone on this board prepared to change their mind

I think the biggest source of disagreement in these boards particularly appears to be between those with ambition to win(and who therefore challenge the MO of levy) and those who seem to be happy to muddle along (and therefore seem to make excuses for levy’s MO)

of course it’s more nuanced than that (for example, I’d happily keep Davies as LCB backup, I’m ok waiting until the summer to replace Hugo. I don’t expect us to sign gvardiol and hakimi for £300m) but equally I’m fed up hearing these cop out excuses that justify the ‘bare minimum’ approach on every window

I cut the "controversial" line just to keep the quote box a bit smaller - I tend to ramble on! Nothing dodgy, I do it on lots of posts that I quote to be a bit more targeted. I'll leave the whole thing in this time.

Regarding that point in bold, I think this shows an even more fundamental problem on the boards. The interpretation that somebody who is trying to understand or reason out some of the club moves must be somebody with no ambition. Why is that the case? When we lost the CL final am I meant to force myself to be unhappy, because if I'm seen to be content then I lack ambition?

My view is that there is no way to guarantee success in sport. Within football, spending money on players can (and does) increase your chances, but it is no guarantee. So I believe that if the club is putting together a team who can be competitive, that is about as much as can be expected. To me, that doesn't mean no ambition... that is just an appreciation of how it works.

Then as a fan, I care about being entertained. I don't want to spend my time watching football (and visiting this forum) if it's unpleasant. I really want to see us win everything in sight (ambition), but I feel it's more important to not be bored stiff in the process (muddle along). The Poch years were overall more fun that lifting the Carabao Cup in my experience - Woodgate face plant aside!

As you say, things are more nuanced and I totally agree. But I think it's that sort of sentiment (challenge the MO vs. making excuses) that is a bit off. I challenge some of the methods and appreciate others. So which group am I in? I think a lot of people are in a similar position.

It's a proverbial melting pot, right? Lots of different opinions on players, on managers, on owners. I think it would be pretty naff for somebody to accuse you of no ambition because you are happy keeping Davies in the squad, or keeping Hugo until Summer. We don't need to put each other into groups, and I don't think there is some point in a conversation where a person decides to "switch sides".

I agree with you there are some pretty weird excuses that get made, and I think most of us are fed up of those. But there are also some weird arguments made against Levy, and most are fed up of those too. I suppose my overall feeling is it would be nice if we could be a group of Spurs fans, rather than being mini-tribes who are taking shots at each other.

As a final point (I told you I ramble!) I think that this January was towards that "bare minimum" side of things. Not in a conspiracy way of keeping the fans happy... but because the recipe for success seemed to be fairly straightforward this time and we missed it. I think the CB is tricky in January, although I don't think that makes me unambitious. I do think that if we aren't able to fill that CB slot in January though, we should have filled another position (AM, WF) and our actions in doing that were miles off.

 

[Hawkey77]

Well this thread has been an absolute farce the last 48 hours. From what I can tell just bickering over grammar and the same few points. Time to shut it down @Archibald&Crooks ?

 

[Trix]

Can i ask you a question. You've been very vocal about us not getting a CB and clearly your feeling is that it's again down to a lack of desire to push the boat out & pay what is needed to get a deal done. Yet the only CB seriously linked for this window was Hincapie, who's young, foreign, unproven in the league & definitely not the finished article (i'd seen some posts calling him rash and pointing to the amount of cards he picks up).

With that in mind, exactly how much difference do you honestly think he'd have made given we have Lenglet , Davies and Dier for that position, all who are fit and available, who have worked extensively in a Conte system and are seasoned experienced players who'll play to a certain level week in week out ?

I can 100% see Hincapie (or a similar youngish prospect) thriving after a pre season working for Conte, but i honestly find it difficult to see a relatively inexperienced defender being thrown into our current team & being a game changing step up from what we already have. Had it been Skriniar for example, yeah absolutely, or Gvardiol (despite his young age) but Hincapie ? can't see it myself, i honestly think that had he signed he'd have been integrated very slowly & made little discernible difference this season, and i think Conte / Paratici would have thought the same.

I'll answer your question by saying it's all completely irrelevant.

It boils down to this. The manager asked for a CB. We didn't get one.

How many windows have we seen a similar story unfold.

 

[Mr Pink]

Again we are going in around in circles, I don’t question your opinion because it is yours don’t question mine. We all think differently and see things differently. Seen thousands of games and heard thousand different opinions that is football. My argument is simple toxicity in the ground serves only on side and it is the opponent. Our stadium turned into easy picking because of our toxic atmosphere so let respect each opinions. ???

I do respect it, but I don't agree with it.

Surely that's ok...its a forum lol.

 

[Mr Pink]

Well this thread has been an absolute farce the last 48 hours. From what I can tell just bickering over grammar and the same few points. Time to shut it down @Archibald&Crooks ?

Why get involved then? Why do you personally need it shut down lol.

I think there's been some great points made.

 

[Lea]

I do respect it, but I don't agree with it.

Surely that's ok...its a forum lol.

No problem with that but just ask yourself a very simple question why are we so bad at home, it should have been fortress but right now all away team loving coming over. Remember how we brutalised Arsenal. The toxic atmosphere doesn’t effect Levy certainly no Joe but it’s affects the players. I am only interested in result on the pitch because I support only football team. Not owners mangers or even players. I am Tottenham Hotspur fan always been and will stop when will join my maker. That why I will not support toxicity

 

[Locotoro]

You’re totally missing the point

we don’t want dier or Davies to be starters
We should be looking to sell Sanchez and Tanganga too if we want to actually win things.
If the likes of dier played less that would be a good thing

I agree on the defence but i dont see the issue with not capturing a RWF. My point on the defence is as an example of positions that can be interchangable to some extent more than refuting the fact that it needs to be replaced.

If we bring in 2 starters over Dier and Davies thats a good thing and sell Tanganga and choose not to sign Lenglet that still leaves us with a back up of Sanchez, Dier and Davies who people will be crying out as not good enough and needing to be replaced when in actual fact only one of them is likely to be getting any minutes

 

[nailsy]

There isn’t anyone in the last few pages of this debate who is happy with Levy’s MO and is happy to ‘muddle along’ and it’s really disingenuous to frame it that way as it implies the debate is between people who agree with you and lesser beings with no ambition.

Since I’m pretty sure I’m one of those lesser beings in your mind, let me reiterate: I don’t agree with Levy’s MO and want him out of the club. I think we should be aiming much higher than we are. The only difference between you and me is that I think I have more realistic expectations of what is possible within a certain time frame - specifically that (as ever with chelsea and their current insanity as the caveat) nobody buys 4 first team upgrades in January. They just don’t and it’s a demonstrable fact. Why that has been repeatedly conflated with being happy with levy, not understanding that his approach over multiple years has caused problems and the various other criticisms I’ve no idea.

I’m definitely more optimistic than some about how close our squad it (which isn’t the same as less ambitious) - like you I’d be happy with Davies as a backup LCB, perhaps unlike you I’d be happy to keep Sanchez and Dier as backups too if we buy 2 new CBs. I think even with one more CB (that we should have bought in January) our squad would be in pretty good shape, and in the summer I’d like a GK, at least one (ideally 2) CBs, a creative player and a youngster or two.

like I’ve said elsewhere I actually think the ins have been pretty good in the last few windows, with the glaring exception of not addressing CB. Levy’s management of outs has been catastrophic, and I don’t trust him to get Harry to put pen to paper which is my biggest concern of all.

that’s my take on the squad and the state of the club. You can agree with all, some or none of it, but it doesn’t mean I’m less ambitious than you

Newcastle last year? All we need is few billion in the bank and we could easily do the same.

 

[Jamturk]

I'll answer your question by saying it's all completely irrelevant.

It boils down to this. The manager asked for a CB. We didn't get one.

How many windows have we seen a similar story unfold.

Was there a CB available for a reasonable price for a manager who can't commit beyond the end of the season?

 

[Cel]

Was there a CB available for a reasonable price for a manager who can't commit beyond the end of the season?

Is the next manager playing a revolutionary system with no CB's?

 

[Hawkey77]

Why get involved then? Why do you personally need it shut down lol.

I think there's been some great points made.

For the ITK discussion thread? Not so sure myself…and seeing it bumped when there could be some news about the TW from ITK it’s just bloody annoying. Don’t care passionately, not going on a crusade but just don’t see the reason why this is the best place for this chat.

 

[Mr Pink]

Oh come on, it's a couple of pages....

 

[Tezza1978]

Oh come on, it's a couple of pages....

Yep - I think this thread has "naturally" gone that way as 1) the window is over - so we aren't going to get ITK on new signings 2) there isnt a window "autopsy" thread anywhere else - so everyone is discussing where we are now up to.

I'm all for strict moderation of this thread to ITK only "during" windows of course ............as the mods rightly want to keep it on topic to avoid it turning into the 23rd thread of the year about either Conte/ENIC/Paratici and his legal challenges/investment possibilities/club for sale discussions/Why isnt Spence playing etc etc

 

[npearl4spurs]

Sanchez - Sell

CCB: NEW
LCB: NEW

This is the absolute minimum we have to get done. And, by starting CBs - I mean high quality CBs - not Lenglet level. I would be fine if we can also sell Dier and/or Davie and bring in capable back-ups - but that is probably asking too much.

I edited your post to correct what actually "asking too much" looked like