The Daily ITK Discussion Thread - THE DEADLINE

[Thenewcat]

Isn't that the issue though? There probably isn't a better 6th choice combo than Dier/Davies in the division. The problem is that they aren't our 6th choice, they're our 1st and 2nd choice. I'd be perfectly happy with them as general injury cover, but with rotation even a second choice player starts one in three matches.

I haven't heard any noises of us trying to keep Lenglet, so realistically before we buy anyone in the summer our absolute 1st choice CB and LCB is Dier and Davies. We will be one Romero injury/suspension away from a back line of Sanchez - Dier - Davies to start the season.

The other positions I did say were arguable.

What you just wrote is fine, but in no way does that mean we need 5CBs. I’d remind you your last line is exactly where we were last year when we had an excellent defensive record, including 3 clean sheets to finish the season when Romero was injured. If we sign 2 new top notch CBs and have Sanchez Dier and Davies as reserves that’s probably the best set of options in the league. It’s ridiculous to suggest we need or are going to buy a complete set of reserves on top and have Dier and Davies as our 7th and 8th choice options. Nor even chelsea keep that much squad flab around

 

[Dunc2610]

Taking Chelsea and their bizarre and somewhat dodgy spending spree out the equation, did people genuinely expect 'us' to fill all the gaps or even more of the gaps in a transfer window that is notorious for being difficult (unless overpaying) to bring players in? Conte himself said its about adding 2/3 players ever window.

 

[mr ashley]

Taking Chelsea and their bizarre and somewhat dodgy spending spree out the equation, did people genuinely expect 'us' to fill all the gaps or even more of the gaps in a transfer window that is notorious for being difficult (unless overpaying) to bring players in? Conte himself said its about adding 2/3 players ever window.

Well, frankly yes
Our need for both a rwf to backup kulusevski and a centre back to replace dier were huge
If we’ve got so many holes in the squad, if we can register 3 new players for CL and
if we have the money (god only knows why we haven’t) then I’d have expected us to sign 3 players for sure, maybe 4.

I don’t know why that’s unrealistic if you want to give the manager as much chance of wining/qualifying for CL

 

[yido_number1]

Well, frankly yes
Our need for both a rwf to backup kulusevski and a centre back to replace dier were huge
If we’ve got so many holes in the squad, if we can register 3 new players for CL and
if we have the money (god only knows why we haven’t) then I’d have expected us to sign 3 players for sure, maybe 4.

I don’t know why that’s unrealistic if you want to give the manager as much chance of wining/qualifying for CL

Exactly this, we tried for a CB in the summer, why didn't have something sorted for the winter window.

You'd think we weren't allowed to negotiate deals all year round and could only start in the window periods. I'd like to see us mop up some of these end of contract signings now for the summer at least.

 

[mr ashley]

Exactly this, we tried for a CB in the summer, why didn't have something sorted for the winter window.

You'd think we weren't allowed to negotiate deals all year round and could only start in the window periods. I'd like to see us mop up some of these end of contract signings now for the summer at least.

Exactly. We’re always told that there’s a better deal in the next window but when that comes around we aren’t announcing completed deals- we spend the entire window haggling.

Supposedly deals for defenders with 6/12/18 months left on their contract whose clubs couldn’t refuse our offers- guess what- they did refuse them and now we have to finish the season with backups as starters.

 

[Locotoro]

Well, frankly yes
Our need for both a rwf to backup kulusevski and a centre back to replace dier were huge
If we’ve got so many holes in the squad, if we can register 3 new players for CL and
if we have the money (god only knows why we haven’t) then I’d have expected us to sign 3 players for sure, maybe 4.

I don’t know why that’s unrealistic if you want to give the manager as much chance of wining/qualifying for CL

I am all for ensuring we have a competitive squad which is stacked with quality players but the idea that we need a like for like replacement for each position is a bit of a fallacy.

Take our front line as the example - we have Son, Kane and Deki as the starters and Danjuma, Richy and Lucas as the back ups. If for any reason there is an injury to Deki do you guys really think that Lucas would come into the starting line up to replace him? No way. Conte would 100% bring in Richy and then Danjuma before Lucas would start and that means the only reason Lucas would get game time is if he's coming off the bench to give a rest to others or if we have a full blown injury crisis where 2 or 3 of the starters are injured.

The same applies to the back line: Romero, Dier, Davies all start and Lenglet, Sanchez and Tanganga back up but actually how much game time do Sanchex and Tanganga actually get? Hardly any, so its quite unrealistic to expect a high quality player to come in and play second fiddle to someone ahead of them (if we're looking for a RWF) and then compete with Richy and Danjuma for that starting spot when it comes available.

 

[mr ashley]

I am all for ensuring we have a competitive squad which is stacked with quality players but the idea that we need a like for like replacement for each position is a bit of a fallacy.

Take our front line as the example - we have Son, Kane and Deki as the starters and Danjuma, Richy and Lucas as the back ups. If for any reason there is an injury to Deki do you guys really think that Lucas would come into the starting line up to replace him? No way. Conte would 100% bring in Richy and then Danjuma before Lucas would start and that means the only reason Lucas would get game time is if he's coming off the bench to give a rest to others or if we have a full blown injury crisis where 2 or 3 of the starters are injured.

The same applies to the back line: Romero, Dier, Davies all start and Lenglet, Sanchez and Tanganga back up but actually how much game time do Sanchex and Tanganga actually get? Hardly any, so its quite unrealistic to expect a high quality player to come in and play second fiddle to someone ahead of them (if we're looking for a RWF) and then compete with Richy and Danjuma for that starting spot when it comes available.

You’re totally missing the point

we don’t want dier or Davies to be starters
We should be looking to sell Sanchez and Tanganga too if we want to actually win things.
If the likes of dier played less that would be a good thing

 

[Thenewcat]

Well, frankly yes
Our need for both a rwf to backup kulusevski and a centre back to replace dier were huge
If we’ve got so many holes in the squad, if we can register 3 new players for CL and
if we have the money (god only knows why we haven’t) then I’d have expected us to sign 3 players for sure, maybe 4.

I don’t know why that’s unrealistic if you want to give the manager as much chance of wining/qualifying for CL

Chelsea absurdity this window aside, can you tell me the last time a top side signed 4 players in the January window? It just doesn’t happen. Us getting Kulu and Bentancur in one window is the only time one of the big six has bought in 2 first teamers in the last 5 years (I couldn’t be bothered to trawl back through transfermarkt any further so not sure when it last happened). Does this maybe suggest signing 3-4 high quality options in January isn’t as easy as you’re making it sound???

 

[Maxtremist]

You’re totally missing the point

we don’t want dier or Davies to be starters
We should be looking to sell Sanchez and Tanganga too if we want to actually win things.
If the likes of dier played less that would be a good thing

At the start of the season, I feel like the majority of people did not have issues with Dier starting in our backline. He ended last season fantastically and started this one on very good form too. Sadly around the time of his (much deserved) return to the England side, his form also dipped. So I think Dier starting isn't the issue in of itself, it's his form.

In terms of overhauling our CB's and the squad... replacing a whole backline in one go is generally a weird thing to do. I think we all agree we need at least one more CB. Likely a LCB to replace Davies (who's out of form but ended last season well) and Lenglet (who's had his good moments but likely isn't our full time answer). With a good LCB to partner Romero and Dier, that's a pretty solid backline when in form. Add to that Destiny and Porro as wing backs and our back 5 is pretty great (on paper at least).

In terms of Sanchez and Tanganga... if good offers come in for them, then by all means we sell them. But I don't think having them on the books is a disaster. We're likely going to be in 4 competitions next season and we'll need a squad of players, and I think Sanchez and Tanganga are good in that role. Sanchez more so. I think Tanganga would certainly benefit from a season playing regularly somewhere though so a PL loan move would be good.

 

[mr ashley]

At the start of the season, I feel like the majority of people did not have issues with Dier starting in our backline. He ended last season fantastically and started this one on very good form too. Sadly around the time of his (much deserved) return to the England side, his form also dipped. So I think Dier starting isn't the issue in of itself, it's his form.

In terms of overhauling our CB's and the squad... replacing a whole backline in one go is generally a weird thing to do. I think we all agree we need at least one more CB. Likely a LCB to replace Davies (who's out of form but ended last season well) and Lenglet (who's had his good moments but likely isn't our full time answer). With a good LCB to partner Romero and Dier, that's a pretty solid backline when in form. Add to that Destiny and Porro as wing backs and our back 5 is pretty great (on paper at least).

In terms of Sanchez and Tanganga... if good offers come in for them, then by all means we sell them. But I don't think having them on the books is a disaster. We're likely going to be in 4 competitions next season and we'll need a squad of players, and I think Sanchez and Tanganga are good in that role. Sanchez more so. I think Tanganga would certainly benefit from a season playing regularly somewhere though so a PL loan move would be good.

You are right, dier has at times proven himself to be of the required quality.
maybe it was the less frequent run of matches (similar to a back up/rotation option?)

To be honest I can’t believe I’m being drawn into a conversation about how our current defence is good enough.

We simply cannot share the same ambition

 

[mr ashley]

Chelsea absurdity this window aside, can you tell me the last time a top side signed 4 players in the January window? It just doesn’t happen. Us getting Kulu and Bentancur in one window is the only time one of the big six has bought in 2 first teamers in the last 5 years (I couldn’t be bothered to trawl back through transfermarkt any further so not sure when it last happened). Does this maybe suggest signing 3-4 high quality options in January isn’t as easy as you’re making it sound???

Seriously tell me one reason why signing zaniolo was difficult?
certainly not finances

likewise for hincapie.

We aren’t a broke club. Just a tight one

 

[steve]

Seriously tell me one reason why signing zaniolo was difficult?
certainly not finances

likewise for hincapie.

We aren’t a broke club. Just a tight one

I think we wanted a loan with an option to buy and Roma didn't.

I think given his injuries and level of performance this season we were right (if what I've said above is correct).

 

[cliff jones]

Chelsea absurdity this window aside, can you tell me the last time a top side signed 4 players in the January window? It just doesn’t happen. Us getting Kulu and Bentancur in one window is the only time one of the big six has bought in 2 first teamers in the last 5 years (I couldn’t be bothered to trawl back through transfermarkt any further so not sure when it last happened). Does this maybe suggest signing 3-4 high quality options in January isn’t as easy as you’re making it sound???

2 first teamers including a CB would have been much better than 1, done on the very last day. But it never really looked on the cards, did it? We've been shipping goals L R and C since the early part of the season.

 

[mr ashley]

I think we wanted a loan with an option to buy and Roma didn't.

I think given his injuries and level of performance this season we were right (if what I've said above is correct).

Yeah this club knows all about loans….

 

[[email protected]]

Chelsea absurdity this window aside, can you tell me the last time a top side signed 4 players in the January window? It just doesn’t happen. Us getting Kulu and Bentancur in one window is the only time one of the big six has bought in 2 first teamers in the last 5 years (I couldn’t be bothered to trawl back through transfermarkt any further so not sure when it last happened). Does this maybe suggest signing 3-4 high quality options in January isn’t as easy as you’re making it sound???

Why are you still banging this particular drum? Trix already answered you on this question when he said:
“It's not about numbers, it's about getting what you aim for. And forget January, pick any window where we've addressed all of our main problems over value buys.

I'm just sick to death of fans arguing on their behalf doing mental gymnastics to explain why we are constantly left short. If you can't see it you've got your head in the sand, I mean we wanted Porro for over 2 months and announced it at 11pm on deadline day.
When the same things keep happening, It's not a coincidence.”
Did you just not bother to read Trix’ reply to your own post mate?

 

[Stoof]

Why are you still banging this particular drum? Trix already answered you on this question when he said:
“It's not about numbers, it's about getting what you aim for. And forget January, pick any window where we've addressed all of our main problems over value buys.

I'm just sick to death of fans arguing on their behalf doing mental gymnastics to explain why we are constantly left short. If you can't see it you've got your head in the sand, I mean we wanted Porro for over 2 months and announced it at 11pm on deadline day.
When the same things keep happening, It's not a coincidence.”
Did you just not bother to read Trix’ reply to your own post mate?

This battle will never be won, John. Your expectations (rightly or wrongly) are higher than Thenewcat’s. That doesn’t mean either of your opinions are invalid - but it will mean that we go around in circles. I don’t think anyone is suggesting this was an amazing window or the contrary I don’t think anyone’s suggesting it was a disaster. There IS a trend in numbers and levels of signings in the mid-season and end of season windows. That’s a function of time and timing. And factual.

 

[[email protected]]

This battle will never be won, John. Your expectations (rightly or wrongly) are higher than Thenewcat’s. That doesn’t mean either of your opinions are invalid - but it will mean that we go around in circles. I don’t think anyone is suggesting this was an amazing window or the contrary I don’t think anyone’s suggesting it was a disaster. There IS a trend in numbers and levels of signings in the mid-season and end of season windows. That’s a function of time and timing. And factual.

But again that misses the point that Trix makes so clearly and emphatically: “it isn’t about the numbers”, it isn’t about “January”, it’s about the constant failure to address our main problems and instead prioritise “value buys”. Read his post again, it couldn’t be more unequivocal. The “function of time and timing” is irrelevant. Because as Trix rightly says, “It's EVERY WINDOW”! “Every window there are numerous excuses as to why we've left our selves short.”. Now, it’s that last sentence that really is “factual”.

 

[nedley]

He's been bang on the money over the last few windows.

One of the best ITKs around IMO.

You can disagree all you like. The evidence is there.

 

[Thenewcat]

Why are you still banging this particular drum? Trix already answered you on this question when he said:
“It's not about numbers, it's about getting what you aim for. And forget January, pick any window where we've addressed all of our main problems over value buys.

I'm just sick to death of fans arguing on their behalf doing mental gymnastics to explain why we are constantly left short. If you can't see it you've got your head in the sand, I mean we wanted Porro for over 2 months and announced it at 11pm on deadline day.
When the same things keep happening, It's not a coincidence.”
Did you just not bother to read Trix’ reply to your own post mate?

I read it. Trix is a great poster (and itk) and I respect his opinions, and I have never suggested that we shouldn’t have brought in a CB this window, or that the Porro deal wasn’t managed poorly. But all the people disagreeing with me (including trix) keep ignoring my point that buying 3 first teamers in January at the top ended or the market just doesn’t happen. Trix said it happened ‘all the time’. You and others keep disagreeing with posts but you’re disagreeing with facts. When I say none of the big six have upgraded 3 positions in Jan in at least 5 years (barring potentially Chelsea’s current insanity but even then jury is out) that is not an opinion you can disagree with, it’s a fact. Before this window the only time in that period a team had fixed 2 was us last year.

 

[Thenewcat]

But again that misses the point that Trix makes so clearly and emphatically: “it isn’t about the numbers”, it isn’t about “January”, it’s about the constant failure to address our main problems and instead prioritise “value buys”. Read his post again, it couldn’t be more unequivocal. The “function of time and timing” is irrelevant. Because as Trix rightly says, “It's EVERY WINDOW”! “Every window there are numerous excuses as to why we've left our selves short.”. Now, it’s that last sentence that really is “factual”.

Mate I can agree with trix’s opinion and mine. He didn’t ‘answer my question’. He answered a different one. They are different arguments. Trix posting something that is true but different to the original argument doesn’t disprove my point at all. You can think we should have done more (I agree). You can think we managed things poorly (I also agree). But breezily saying we should have bought in 3-4 players ignores the fact that this almost never happens