The Deadline Day ITK Discussion Thread - 1st September

[Stavrogin]

And it drives me nuts too. I’m not defending it, but there is very little we can do sadly. I do hope we’ve learned lessons in the market and in particular scouting as we’re suffering from so many mistakes.

I am interested in this whole line of thinking.

The implication is that our transfer activity is the reason that things are the way they are. Is it possible you've assumed a paradigm that is not correct?

Consider this: We are almost always unhappy with our transfer activity. We almost always have holes in the squad and we always 'miss out' on exciting signings (as is the case for almost all clubs). And yet in that time we have seen massive improvement and hosted some of the best players in the world - none of whom were signed as superstars and almost none of whom hit the ground running. (maybe Berbatov, Van der Vaart and Lloris were exceptions)

What we also find is that many of the big signings that made a lot of sense, like Ndombele, Lo Celso, Soldado etc. were actually not right. And those times we thought we'd had great windows proved to be anything but.

And now... consider this!: It's been long noted that most fans enjoy transfers more than football matches. Which makes a lot of sense. A transfer is a less passive experience than watching a match, in the sense that we could all sign players if necessary and we can all imagine we could do it better. It promises something ongoing, as opposed to a match and it gives you the opportunity to get something over your rivals. Plus, unlike a match, the potential upsides can be limitless - we can keep signing players for ever, better and better ones.

In short, a transfer feels like a victory - one that is bought rather than earned (which probably explains a lot of its appeal) but a victory nonetheless. And yet history surely tells us that it isn't. Players can flop, sink into mediocrity and become indistinguishable from those they replaced, or require development. And yet we still consider apparently insufficent (or more accurately, unsatisfying) transfer activity to be a loss - one that sticks in the memory and is irretrievable.

I'm not saying that transfers are not important or a good source of fun. But their success is usually contingent on the qualities of the manager and our initial reaction is seldom correct. So we need to be more sanguine about it. First we need the right manager, playing the right kind of football, and then we can start to look at transfers as victories - or as steps to actual victories.

Giving Ndombele to a mentally checked out Pochettino means nothing. Giving Perisic and Porro to the mentally ravaged Conte was not going to achieve anything. But if Postecoglou has good half/full season we might be able to see how a £100m striker is going to yield big results. So i'm really saying that we've been terrible on the pitch for four+ years and that's not been solely down to transfer activity, nor was transfer activity to means to rectify it. So we shouldn't get so worked up about it.

 

[anydange]

What’s the vibes in here?

 

[Neon_Knight_]

I am interested in this whole line of thinking.

The implication is that our transfer activity is the reason that things are the way they are. Is it possible you've assumed a paradigm that is not correct?

Consider this: We are almost always unhappy with our transfer activity. We almost always have holes in the squad and we always 'miss out' on exciting signings (as is the case for almost all clubs). And yet in that time we have seen massive improvement and hosted some of the best players in the world - none of whom were signed as superstars and almost none of whom hit the ground running. (maybe Berbatov, Van der Vaart and Lloris were exceptions)

What we also find is that many of the big signings that made a lot of sense, like Ndombele, Lo Celso, Soldado etc. were actually not right. And those times we thought we'd had great windows proved to be anything but.

And now... consider this!: It's been long noted that most fans enjoy transfers more than football matches. Which makes a lot of sense. A transfer is a less passive experience than watching a match, in the sense that we could all sign players if necessary and we can all imagine we could do it better. It promises something ongoing, as opposed to a match and it gives you the opportunity to get something over your rivals. Plus, unlike a match, the potential upsides can be limitless - we can keep signing players for ever, better and better ones.

In short, a transfer feels like a victory - one that is bought rather than earned (which probably explains a lot of its appeal) but a victory nonetheless. And yet history surely tells us that it isn't. Players can flop, sink into mediocrity and become indistinguishable from those they replaced, or require development. And yet we still consider apparently insufficent (or more accurately, unsatisfying) transfer activity to be a loss - one that sticks in the memory and is irretrievable.

I'm not saying that transfers are not important or a good source of fun. But their success is usually contingent on the qualities of the manager and our initial reaction is seldom correct. So we need to be more sanguine about it. First we need the right manager, playing the right kind of football, and then we can start to look at transfers as victories - or as steps to actual victories.

Giving Ndombele to a mentally checked out Pochettino means nothing. Giving Perisic and Porro to the mentally ravaged Conte was not going to achieve anything. But if Postecoglou has good half/full season we might be able to see how a £100m striker is going to yield big results. So i'm really saying that we've been terrible on the pitch for four+ years and that's not been solely down to transfer activity, nor was transfer activity to means to rectify it. So we shouldn't get so worked up about it.

When Poch arrived, transfers certainly weren't the main solution to the underperforming team that he inherited. It was far more about him transforming the squad into an effective team and weeding out any negativity in the squad.

We signed only six players for our starting XI from his arrival in summer 2014 through to the infamous summer 2019:
2014 - Fazio
2015 - Alderweireld, Son & Dele
2016 - Wanyama
2017 - Aurier
All other signings were squad players / young prospects (e.g. Dier, Davies, Trippier, Sissoko, Sanchez, Janssen, Llorente).

Then in 2019 we tried to replace Dembele (Ndombele), Eriksen (Lo Celso) & Rose (Sessegnon) in the same window....and we ended up with a much weaker team.

This time around, there seems to have been a much greater need to upgrade on some of the starting XI, but there are already signs that we don't need to overhaul the entire squad quite so drastically as some people would have had us believe.

 

[nedley]

A double injury away from a Sanchez and Davies partnership.

Incredible.

This.fucking.club.

 

[AmericanSpur]

.5???

They tried…

 

[pvg]

Consider this: We are almost always unhappy with our transfer activity. We almost always have holes in the squad and we always 'miss out' on exciting signings

This is because loads of fans approach the window like a toddler at Christmas.

 

[glospur]

A double injury away from a Sanchez and Davies partnership.

Incredible.

This.fucking.club.

a triple injury away from a porro - sanchez - dier - davies back 4 in a premier league game

 

[cliff jones]

Like last summer the beginning was decent, seemed to be a plan. Then as the Kane saga took that turn for the worse all Levy's bad points resurfaced. .

Surely we could have scouted in another CB without taking too big a risk. One injury or suspension and Sanchez is in.

We've now bet 100m on Richarlison and Johnson, neither of whom look like posting the numbers to me.

Looking at what other clubs have done in the market and how they've started, I don't think we've quite done enough.

EL would be OK but Brighton and Villa look marginally better.

He won't be bathing in CL money for another season, much to the disappointment of his commercial partners. And he only has himself to blame again

 

[yiddopaul]

I think it's been an great window (on the buying side at least). We got our lock picker, quality new CB, quality keeper, in fact most of our defense has been strengthened. Of course we still need another CB, but to fill so many needed positions with quality is very un-spurs like. I can't believe some fans are unhappy (maybe they give this TW a low rating due to lack of shifting deadwood). I judge it more on how we strengthen, not who we sell. If Levy wants to pay deadwood high salaries, ain't my money.

 

[yiddopaul]

a triple injury away from a porro - sanchez - dier - davies back 4 in a premier league game

We're 11 injuries away from having to play our B team/bench.

 

[peterballb]

Well, now that some of the over-reaction has died down, some comments. Yes it will be a bit long but is a counter point to all of the moaning.

Yes, we could have more capable/experienced competition for some positions (notably CB's). That said, I have a hard time suggesting this window has been anything other than a huge success when it comes to the 17-19 players we will be using this year.

17 games in 17 weeks until the next window opens (barring any postponements due to other team's conflicts/weather etc.). Not exactly a challenging schedule. Players want to play more frequently than that.

So, who do we have? Vicario, Forster, Porro, Royal, Romero, Van de Ven, Sanchez, Phillips, Davies, Udogie, Sessegnon, Sarr, Hojberg, Skipp, Bissouma, Bentancur, Madison, Lo Celso, Perisic, Son, Richarlisson, Kulu, Johnson, Gil and a third keeper. There are 25 players, of whom, I expect to see only 20 play.

We have lots of players. We are not short.

No replacement for Harry Kane brought in because there are not many who could and none who would be coming to a team that does not pay top wages, let along have CL football. His goals cannot be replaced by one player. We need to operate with goals coming across the top 4. This is what Roma did in 2012/2013 when Osvaldo, Lamela and Totti flitted in and out and across the top and scored 16, 15 and 12 goals respectively. It was a group effort. Son/Perisic/Solomon/Maddison/Richarlisson/Gio/Kulu/Johnson need to make up the deficit. I fully believe that they will do that and then some with the more attack/pressure oriented play. Richarlisson (just a wild guess here) will come good (not great) now that he knows he is the guy and will have weight off his shoulders. Even if not, there are a bunch of guys to step in.

I am far more concerned about Son - he has not looked the same since signing the contract. There is no doubt he has lost a step and seems to be lashing at every ball now. That is where Johnson will be a significant option for Ange. He will run to the byline and fire in the cross. Perisic does that. Kulu almost always cuts in to be on his left. Johnson is also lightning fast. That cannot be taught. Kulu and Solomon can both beat their man. Maddison is deceptively quick (while not fast). That can all feed in to success for Richarlisson.

Offensively, we will score goals. Ange's system really depends on the back end being clean. I really like what Vicario brings to the table (he could do better with where he parries balls). Romero and Van de Ven look great together. Early days, but very happy there. Phillips looks to be a real talent and Dorrington will now be training with the first team. Two highly regarded 18 year olds. Lots to worry about with Sanchez, but effort and commitment are not issues. Against Fulham, two really poor long passes that were always going to be picked off putting Fulham on dangerous counters. He also made some really good defensive blocks. So, as is the norm with him over the past few years, as much good as there is bad. Unlike Dier, he is quick enough to play the high line and recover as necessary.

On Dier (and Lloris for that matter) they were never going to sign anywhere unless it was what they want going forward. They have family and other commitments. Dier, as I understand it, will likely go back to Portugal next year. The teams there cannot pay his current salary or any transfer fees. I would not be surprised if we bought him out. Same for Lloris who was talking to Nice long before now. I expect he will go back home for next year. Keepers are different in that emergency loans are always possible. So, one never knows. What is certain is that he has been free to secure alternate employment for over two months and has not been happy with anything on offer.

Ndombele will not play for us. Whether he chooses to go elsewhere is on him. He wants to be on a top team in the CL. No idea what his transfer agreement provisions are. On salary alone, we would need to cough up whatever remains of the 10M GBP owing to him to June 2025. There may also be funds owing to Lyon and agents, so who knows what the value owing is. I do not expect as Levy (meaning THFC as he is not the be all and end all, just the face) will take a 15-20M hit on him this transfer window. He will go to Turkey or somewhere else where they will pay part of his wages. He is not wanted at that salary by anyone. We unfortunately agreed to the contract.

Hopefully a few of Tanganga, Rodon, Spence and Reguilon do enough to impress so that they may fetch appropriate transfer fees. The only one I could see ever getting to the required level is Spence and he would need a complete attitude adjustment.

Herein lies the real problem, we have signed 9 players this window (including making Kulu and Porro permanent). We have sold 3. Our squad, which was bloated before, is now more bloated (yes, even with all those saying we should just be signing anyone and everyone and that outgoings do not matter). 35 Senior Players (does not include Scarlett, Parrott or Devine). 33 if Dier and Lloris are bought out. For the uninitiated, that's about 5-8 too many (even with Europe).

What needs to occur in the next window or two is to get that number down another 5 or 6. We also need to start doing a far better job of identifying and then developing talent. It is completely unacceptable to bring in Rodon or Spence (as examples) and then have no plan for them. Blame Levy all you want. He certainly signed off on the purchase. He had nothing to do with identifying the talent or the development of the player once in. Ultimately, he is responsible for the people who are responsible for those tasks and needs to address that. None of Jose, Nuno or Conte were going to develop players. To my mind, that is not the Tottenham way.

I am fairly optimistic about this season. I love the way Ange looks at things and sets up teams. I fully expect to have the odd shellacking because of the style of play. But on the whole, and given the talent in the squad, I believe as we will be in Europe next year. And who knows, with only one competition to focus on until January, perhaps we can get up there in the top 4 discussion. Limit the injuries and start scoring from free kicks (why do they all hit the wall) and I believe as we can be in there. One game at a time. Burnley tomorrow. Three points is the next step.

Just football to watch and discuss until January.

COYS

 

[Mattspurs1982]

When the window opened months ago, the priority was 2 CB’s ready for the first XI. We haven’t done that (I can’t count Philips as he’s a future prospect). Such a shame

 

[DenverSpur]

And people can say what they like about Hugo, Dier etc but players with drive and hunger to win and compete at the highest level aren't going to just sit in the reserves for a year regardless of their contract circumstance.

That is the mentality we have built over the last 5 or 6 years.

Don't get me wrong they are more than entitled to do that, and I'm not slagging them off for sitting on their contracts. What I'm saying is I'll be glad to see the back of players with that mentality.

Hopefully we reach agreement with both and they are gone this week. I don't want players happy to coast, around a young hungry squad.

Entirely agree. It’s a virus that infects Tottenham. Players are too comfortable here.
Without making it a Levy bashing I think some of it is due to Levy hanging out at Hotspur Way so much. As you saw in the Amazon documentary he was Dining with the players and coaches, he was readily available to the players. Remember Rose storming out of Mourinho’s office say he was “ going to see Daniel”.He’s a football groupie but his fraternizing with them isn’t good business practice. You have to ask how were Lloris and Dier allowed get to a point of only having one year left on their contract? Is that because Levy allowed his personal relationship with them affect his business relationship with them. I don’t know? Either way the chairman of the club shouldn’t be pals with the players.

Unfortunately this virus has been at Tottenham longer than 5 or 6 years. Back in the 90’s the majority of players were bought from English clubs. I noticed back then when say ManU or Liverpool for example bought a player from the Championship or a lower PL team that player looked at it as an opportunity to go on and win thing so subsequently they upped their game. Conversely players Tottenham bought seem to view it then securing their pension and they could relax now.
Without slagging them off too much we bought Raul Fox from Norwich and Jason Dozzel from Ipswich. At the time they seemed good buy; both were stars in their teams but apart from the odd game here there neither really pushed on and made an impact with us. I remember at the time thinking that they didn’t seem to view a move to Tottenham as an opportunity to win things but rather viewed moving to Tottenham as winning the jackpot so it was time to put their feet up and relax. I’m probably being a bit unfair to them but so many players we buy never seem to really make an impression with us, they never go up a level or two. It’s like the club breeds a culture of satisfaction and complacency.
When you look back at some of the great players we’ve had it’s just baffling we’ve won so little. And all this was true well before ENIC but they do seem to be happy with complacent culture at the club.

 

[DenverSpur]

Everyone from that 2019 team should be gone, including Kane. Poch knew the project was over then.

Agree. That’s why I’m a bit disappointed that Ange appointed Son captain. He really needs to be maneuvered towards the out door.

 

[jolsnogross]

As always, the success of a window won't be apparent until the season develops and find out where we are. We're still in the honeymoon period where things are new and we've hit the ground running in the league. It'll be interesting to see if we respond to a couple of losses or struggle to score for a patch.

 

[spark7586]

Like last summer the beginning was decent, seemed to be a plan. Then as the Kane saga took that turn for the worse all Levy's bad points resurfaced. .

Surely we could have scouted in another CB without taking too big a risk. One injury or suspension and Sanchez is in.

We've now bet 100m on Richarlison and Johnson, neither of whom look like posting the numbers to me.

Looking at what other clubs have done in the market and how they've started, I don't think we've quite done enough.

EL would be OK but Brighton and Villa look marginally better.

He won't be bathing in CL money for another season, much to the disappointment of his commercial partners. And he only has himself to blame again

He won’t be for a while - the gap between them and us is opening up. He needed to buy a quality striker to replace Kane and a decent cb. Richy is not good enough and Son doesn’t look the same - how levy can’t see that And most fans can is deluded.

 

[DenverSpur]

No one could have foreseen the rapid drop off in Hugo, and likewise not sure many thought Ndombele on a 6 year deal when we signed him was anything other than good business. Dier is a little more complicated.

Lloris should have been replaced two years ago.
Levy bought NDombele to appease Poch despite the scouting department’s misgivings about his attitude and work ethic. To compound that error by giving him the second higest salary after Kane was utter madness on Levy’s part. He’s now reaping what he sowed.

 

[peterballb]

DenverSpur, lots to unpack there

Huge Avalanche Fan - Nordiques/Avs since 79/80

Anyway - Dier and Lloris were not offered extensions as they were declining. Levy always tries to re-up players as he goes and then stops when the remaining term will have them in decline. Can't use them and can't sell them.

He tried to re-up Kane several times over the past few years, without success. Dier was always slow of foot. Lloris was making more and more mistakes. Top of the table EPL was not on their cards (proof is obvious as none of City, Arsenal, Pool, ManU, Chelsea were looking in their directions).

I attribute a great deal to personality in players rather than the luxury that surrounds them. Kane never took a night off. Ledders didn't. There are lots of others who gave all they had for the shirt (regardless of talent or how things turned out). Those are the players we need. Character.

Dele didn't have it. Far too interested in the clothing line and WAGS and such. Many players (I put Ndombele in that category) cannot get beyond themselves to allow their talents to help the team succeed. It's a team game and the only way to succeed is to have all players pulling for the team.

I also believe as there are players who were expected to develop further who just never did. Whether that is from a lower level, another league or from a lower EPL team to a higher one. It will be interesting to watch Rice and Maddison and see how they develop and perform higher up the table. Does anyone think Grealish has progressed since he went to City? Adel Taraabt, Marcus Edwards and numerous more all seemed to have all of the equipment - they just could not put it all together.

There is a role and responsibility in all of that on the player and on the team. Never easy to pinpoint where it all goes off the rails. What is true is that those who will not be denied, tend to succeed.

Paul Staltieri, a fellow Canuck, had a huge heart and gave every ounce he had for the team notwithstanding his limited talent. It's the character in the player that is key. Even a player on 20k GBP per week is incredibly comfortable compared to the vast majority of his peers. Character gets you past that. We need more character players. Maddison seems a great start. All I have heard about Johnson, Phillips and the other new signings suggest they are all good character guys. Perisic is a character guy. It is why Ange will use him even if he can only really manage 30 minutes or so.

 

[Gilzeanking]

Like last summer the beginning was decent, seemed to be a plan. Then as the Kane saga took that turn for the worse all Levy's bad points resurfaced. .

Surely we could have scouted in another CB without taking too big a risk. One injury or suspension and Sanchez is in.

We've now bet 100m on Richarlison and Johnson, neither of whom look like posting the numbers to me.

Yes, for me the one player that didn't impress was Johnson among our 'targets'. 47 Mill is horrifyingly high. He looks every inch a Forest player to me. We really need one of Son and Kulu to suddenly change their ways and regain a semblance of form which I'm not expecting. The CBs is less tragic for me, yes the worry is injuries to 1st teamers..but before that we are OK. Also Sanchez has been excellent for several matches now.

Getting into the head of the club refuseniks like Dier is tricky. Was he gambling that we'd pay off his contract and then he could go to another club with a pocket full of cash ? Or not wanting to play footie at all so turned down everyone...and even more baffling, Lloris turning his nose up at everyone, not understanding his reduced status...no footie either for a season...hoping for a payoff? Feels like they are treating the club a bit shabbily to me. Can't blame Sanchez not wanting to go to the Gulag tho. Disappointed re Gallagher.

However, we have a fabulous midfield. To reverse an old Kane style complaint...Has Levy thrown away a moment when he had a world class midfield, by not buying quality forwards ?

 

[TheChosenOne]

Ndombele can make the teas in the morning.

As long as you don’t mind afternoon tea.