The Next Step

[Mr Pink]

The problems stem from the fact that when you spend all the money and overhaul the squad as we have done in the last couple of seasons, yet I reckon about 90% of it has been spent poorly and either players have been brought in who are over priced, don't really fit and complement others or lack certain qualities, its then very hard to rectify. There's been a total revolution of the playing squad, yet its been a completely botched job in my opinion and so all you are left with after said revolution is chaos, and the people in charge (chairman, DOF and manager) as well as all having to share the blame for this are all probably looking at the many problems we face and don't know where to start in putting things right... Do you have another complete overhaul for instance?

This is an absolutely painstaking rebuild job that is going to have to take place, and its not going to be fixed over the course of a few months. I don't have a problem with our transfer model in theory, its where we are at in the food chain, but we have lost the plot in terms of buying players and squad building and bluntly speaking we need to spend the money more smartly and on better (not necessarily more expensive) players who can do a job for the team. I'd also like to think there is a shared vision of greater emphasis on the academy and developing our own players agreed between chairman/manager and then ideally buying quality rather than quantity. Coupled with this we need a tactically smart manager who can get the best out of the players available to him and will work 25 hours a day on the football side of things and leave no stone unturned and no area of the footballing side of things neglected.

Not going to be a quick fix...

Agree and that's why we need to stick by Pochettino. The constant change means its very difficult to get these things right as different people have different ideas, methods and opinions on things.

The constant change is why we're in a mess really. We do need to do a hell of a lot better with the players we're buying but I refuse to believe its just the players - its the environment at Spurs to. There's something fundamentally wrong.

I know we didn't play to Siggy's strengths, but predictably he now looks twice the player that he's got out of here - playing the way which led us to buying him in the first place.

Sometimes I wonder it wouldn't matter who we bought, they'd be poorer in a Tottenham shirt.

Something needs to change and for once that means sticking by a manager and letting him develop the team, squad, and how the youth are involved as how he sees fit,

 

[Monkey boy]

Agree and that's why we need to stick by Pochettino. The constant change means its very difficult to get these things right as different people have different ideas, methods and opinions on things.

The constant change is why we're in a mess really. We do need to do a hell of a lot better with the players we're buying but I refuse to believe its just the players - its the environment at Spurs to. There's something fundamentally wrong.

I know we didn't play to Siggy's strengths, but predictably he now looks twice the player that he's got out of here - playing the way which led us to buying him in the first place.

Sometimes I wonder it wouldn't matter who we bought, they'd be poorer in a Tottenham shirt.

Something needs to change and for once that means sticking by a manager and letting him develop the team, squad, and how the youth are involved as how he sees fit,

I know it's the en vogue comment to make at the moment regarding the place being rotten but to say that no player improves whilst they are here is just plain wrong, Bale, Modric, Walker, Berba, Keane, Lloris to name but a few. Perhaps the difference in those guys I just mentioned is a mentality thing (another en vogue comment) perhaps theirs is a lot stronger than those of the others that fail to live up to expectation.

The sooner we stop the rot and get this defeat out of our system the better because we are all spiralling out of control at the moment and are blaming everyone from Levy to Pochs interpreter. I include myself in that statement too, I'm still raging 24 hours on from that debacle.

 

[Mr Pink]

I know it's the en vogue comment to make at the moment regarding the place being rotten but to say that no player improves whilst they are here is just plain wrong, Bale, Modric, Walker, Berba, Keane, Lloris to name but a few. Perhaps the difference in those guys I just mentioned is a mentality thing (another en vogue comment) perhaps theirs is a lot stronger than those of the others that fail to live up to expectation.

The sooner we stop the rot and get this defeat out of our system the better because we are all spiralling out of control at the moment and are blaming everyone from Levy to Pochs interpreter. I include myself in that statement too, I'm still raging 24 hours on from that debacle.

I never said no player improves mate, so you've got that wrong. I'm talking more about our recent purchases.

In any case, I'm making a point, albeit a bit dramatically, but I think you get that without taking it so literally.

 

[Spurger King]

Sometimes I wonder it wouldn't matter who we bought, they'd be poorer in a Tottenham shirt.

I think there's a lot of truth to that, and I suspect the reason is that the club seems like a holiday camp. They've got great wages, the London lifestyle, and one of the best training grounds in Europe. Yet as a group of players they have virtually nothing to live up to.

It's not like the situation at United, Liverpool, or any of the other big clubs, where consistent failure would crank up the pressure. Our players have the easy life...if they come close to the top 4/5 it's a 'great achievement', and if they don't, it's just another unspectacular season for the Premier League's perennial underachievers.

We've not got any Scott Parker-type players left in the squad to give their team mates a hard time about a lack of effort, so I genuinely think the majority of our players see this club as the perfect place to put your feet up - with a lot of the benefits of the league's top clubs, but pretty much none of the pressure. A few boos from the fans they never acknowledge hardly counts.

 

[Mr Pink]

I think there's a lot of truth to that, and I suspect the reason is that the club seems like a holiday camp. They've got great wages, the London lifestyle, and one of the best training grounds in Europe. Yet as a group of players they have virtually nothing to live up to.

It's not like the situation at United, Liverpool, or any of the other big clubs, where consistent failure would crank up the pressure. Our players have the easy life...if they come close to the top 4/5 it's a 'great achievement', and if they don't, it's just another unspectacular season for the Premier League's perennial underachievers.

We've not got any Scott Parker-type players left in the squad to give their team mates a hard time about a lack of effort, so I genuinely think the majority of our players see this club as the perfect place to put your feet up - with a lot of the benefits of the league's top clubs, but pretty much none of the pressure. A few boos from the fans they never acknowledge hardly counts.

It really is starting to feel that way.

We need higher standards, much higher. That emanates from all levels within, obviously the management being pivotal.

Won't change overnight but I really hope its being acknowledged behind closed doors.

 

[mpickard2087]

It really is starting to feel that way.

We need higher standards, much higher. That emanates from all levels within, obviously the management being pivotal.

Won't change overnight but I really hope its being acknowledged behind closed doors.

I was about to reply to your previous post in response to mine, but this line relates better better in terms of what I was going to reply with... I agree we need to give someone time in order to sort things out (though you need to take a large leap of faith that the powers that be have selected the right man...) but a manager can make an impression right from the start, and I have to say a few of the things that Poch is doing and his methods and how he has approached the job has annoyed me.

Take his comments yesterday. Its all well and good saying that the players haven't got the right mentality, that's fucking obvious but I imagine it will go down well amongst most supporters and placate them. For me however I'm disappointed when a manager says this. Poch has been here for 4 months now, this wasn't someone who had been appointed midweek and was seeing his team for the first time. As I said in the ratings thread yesterday, for me the first thing a manager does when he comes in has to be to establish a culture of professionalism and set certain standards and make it clear to the players that before anything else happens we need 100% from each of them every day, hour, minute and second. He selects a group of players first and foremost on this and then builds on these foundations.

I am probably one of the more critical posters on here and have OTT expectations and standards, but I strongly believe that the best coaches come in and straightaway set the highest of standards which is what breeds a winning mentality, and anyone who doesn't meet that isn't seen again at the club, certainly isn't playing week in week out. Coming out with this 4 months that the mentality isn't right suggests he either a) didn't do his homework on what he was walking into before he took the job because there's been enough evidence of a weak group of players or b) Poch has been tip-toeing around and 'doing an AVB', trying the softly-softly approach instead of kicking ass and getting things done his way. (Could even be c) that he isn't a winner and isn't going to micromanage and hasn't even thought about things like this, but lets not go there...).

Whilst it may take time to bring about change, I think there are certain things you have to do straight away rather than let things fester for even longer.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

The next step is simply a pretty, attractive and clean-cut 4-3-3. It's a natural progression when 4-5-shit doesn't work.

 

[SpursDave88]

I think there's a lot of truth to that, and I suspect the reason is that the club seems like a holiday camp. They've got great wages, the London lifestyle, and one of the best training grounds in Europe. Yet as a group of players they have virtually nothing to live up to.

It's not like the situation at United, Liverpool, or any of the other big clubs, where consistent failure would crank up the pressure. Our players have the easy life...if they come close to the top 4/5 it's a 'great achievement', and if they don't, it's just another unspectacular season for the Premier League's perennial underachievers.

We've not got any Scott Parker-type players left in the squad to give their team mates a hard time about a lack of effort, so I genuinely think the majority of our players see this club as the perfect place to put your feet up - with a lot of the benefits of the league's top clubs, but pretty much none of the pressure. A few boos from the fans they never acknowledge hardly counts.

Great post...

However apparently we aren't allowed to boo, we need to support out team....

I'll caveat and say I have never personally boo'ed the team... but it is true to say we as fans don't hold the club or players to high enough standards and are then expected to just accept our position as perennial underachievers.

 

[HW61]

Appreciate your stance mate, and you have every right to be disappointed and pissed off with that yesterday. I was to, I can't tell you how disappointed I was.

Firstly, that was a very poor outfit we faced yesterday. Secondly, even though we're a work in progress we should still be beating a side like that at home without too much trouble if everybody is committed and determined enough to get a result.

I know the buck always stops with the manager but this is way too early to be judging Pochettino. If we're passing strong judgement now we might as well all give up.

Yes question his decisions and show disappointment but people who are writing him off already are part of the problem IMHO.

What pisses me off more than anything though is that we rarely see the team, or certain individuals, really get stuck in and drag us through.

We lack character, we always have. Pochettino needs time to change that alone - via getting some out and some more in, and through his own man management. Its not going to happen over night.

But ultimately its time we have to give him. Without that the cycle will continue to repeat itself. A new manager, new ideas, new playing staff - time to adjust and adapt....bla, bla, bla....change, repeat, change etc etc etc.

Totally agree Mr Pink. The natural temptation is to start questioning yet another Levy appointment. Unless we had Mourinho or a seasoned successful operator of that ilk, fans will always waver and feel that this is only going one way. I could easily fall into that trap because we've been there most years under ENIC.

But Mr Pink is talking sense here. We have to be patient and give Poch serious time. The soft underbelly has been Spurs' downfall for the past 45 years. This current squad is devoid of any characters. That's not Poch's fault. Time will tell whether he can address this and move us in the right direction.

It's the key people above Poch who concern me most.

 

[Ribble]

Yes to some degree, albeit football is slightly different. I doubt whether Abramovich or the Oil men from City are looking for a return on their investment, so that smashes that myth.

Lewis and Levy are actual businessmen who've had to make their fortunes, rather than steal them from the Russian people or inherit them by virtue of birth. The only thing Roman really cares about is he's too high profile to quietly knock off, and for the City owners the club is the final logical step on a path that includes a gold plated and diamond encrusted Bugatti Veyron.

 

[jimbo]

In all honesty, the sooner we are are out of Europa, the better IMO. I'm hoping next year if we are not in the Champions League, that we are well away from Europe.

I think we have a better chance of winning the Europa League than finishing above two of: Man City, Chelsea, Man Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool.

Unless we don't want the bother of Champions League football and are going to concentrate on trying to win the FA Cup or something then I don't see the point of wishing us out of Europe.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Sadly I think the next step is just to make it through to January with as little damage as possible and then hope that Levy gives Poch some cash and that Poch knows how to spend it.

The current squad is far too full of players who simply don't deliver on a regular basis. They are undoubtedly talented, but that's what makes their repeated falling apart even more hard to take. Many of them have been delivering performances like this under three separate managers now and eventually you have to question whether they are simply too far up their own backsides to put in the performances their wages suggest they should be putting in.

I'd start by putting as much money as possible behind a deal for Schneiderlin in January, but it'll take a lot more than that if the current crop continue to play like damp hamsters. If the money isn't there, I'm not sure how much influence Poch is going to be able to have because I'm just not convinced many of our players are up for the challenge.

 

[jimbo]

Totally agree We MUST give him time and resources to see this through as yes newcastle were so poor yesterday at half time sinking a beer i was saying We will demolish this lot second half what a fool i was lol.
But it struck me towards the End of the game all those legends that were out on the pitch before the game most i remember and identify with and yet not one from the current team i could say the same about.
And thats it isnt it We currently have No identity and the next two games are going to be big for us two bad results and the media circulates.

If Real Madrid came in and offered us £30m for any one of our players, are there any that you would feel unhappy about selling? I think Lloris is about the only one and you can't exactly build a team around your goalkeeper.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Oh for Dave Mackay, Graham Roberts, Gary Mabbutt.

 

[jimbo]

I was about to reply to your previous post in response to mine, but this line relates better better in terms of what I was going to reply with... I agree we need to give someone time in order to sort things out (though you need to take a large leap of faith that the powers that be have selected the right man...) but a manager can make an impression right from the start, and I have to say a few of the things that Poch is doing and his methods and how he has approached the job has annoyed me.

Take his comments yesterday. Its all well and good saying that the players haven't got the right mentality, that's fucking obvious but I imagine it will go down well amongst most supporters and placate them. For me however I'm disappointed when a manager says this. Poch has been here for 4 months now, this wasn't someone who had been appointed midweek and was seeing his team for the first time. As I said in the ratings thread yesterday, for me the first thing a manager does when he comes in has to be to establish a culture of professionalism and set certain standards and make it clear to the players that before anything else happens we need 100% from each of them every day, hour, minute and second. He selects a group of players first and foremost on this and then builds on these foundations.

I am probably one of the more critical posters on here and have OTT expectations and standards, but I strongly believe that the best coaches come in and straightaway set the highest of standards which is what breeds a winning mentality, and anyone who doesn't meet that isn't seen again at the club, certainly isn't playing week in week out. Coming out with this 4 months that the mentality isn't right suggests he either a) didn't do his homework on what he was walking into before he took the job because there's been enough evidence of a weak group of players or b) Poch has been tip-toeing around and 'doing an AVB', trying the softly-softly approach instead of kicking ass and getting things done his way. (Could even be c) that he isn't a winner and isn't going to micromanage and hasn't even thought about things like this, but lets not go there...).

Whilst it may take time to bring about change, I think there are certain things you have to do straight away rather than let things fester for even longer.

I think you're right to recognise your expectations as being on the high side. We still have to put out a team twice a week and we aren't super rich so I don't think he can afford to just fuck off all the players he might like to in one go. Which is why patience and time are called for, especially if the rot is as deep as we currently, collectively think it is.

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

If Real Madrid came in and offered us £30m for any one of our players, are there any that you would feel unhappy about selling? I think Lloris is about the only one and you can't exactly build a team around your goalkeeper.

They can have Lloris to be honest. The guy is amazing, and completely wasted at Spurs. His excellence is of no use to a team who has a negative goal difference and frequently concedes in plural numbers. If we are going to concede 3-4 goals frequently, might as well stick a cheap and only half-decent man to pick the balls out of the net. Nah, enjoy his saves while we can, and wish him the best of luck in CL next season.

 

[mpickard2087]

I think you're right to recognise your expectations as being on the high side. We still have to put out a team twice a week and we aren't super rich so I don't think he can afford to just fuck off all the players he might like to in one go. Which is why patience and time are called for, especially if the rot is as deep as we currently, collectively think it is.

Maybe so, but I still think in some aspects of all this there is something the manager can do... Why have we conceded a goal from kick off again where players aren't ready, still fiddling with socks etc? Every week we saunter out for the second half late (didn't we get fined for this last year?) and don't exactly give the impression of being switched on and ready to play. These are all minute, marginal gains sort of stuff but often makes the difference. We need someone setting the highest of standards, even if that means treating PL footballers like babies and reminding them that they focus as soon as they step out of the tunnel, stop each individual at the changing room door making sure their shirts are tucked in/socks pulled up/shorts correct/whatever the personal preference is... They don't seem to be able to be trusted to think and act for themselves.

 

[maltahotspur]

Protests will lead us nowhere. The only way we can hurt the board and make them listen, is by boycotting the turnstiles for a game or two. That will make them realize that we will not be taken for a ride. After all we are amongst the most expensive football club to watch and we expect to be treated fair and square in return. We must be provided with the quality of entertainment which is the equivalent of what we pay for and nothing less !

 

[Everlasting Seconds]

Protests will lead us nowhere. The only way we can hurt the board and make them listen, is by boycotting the turnstiles for a game or two. That will make them realize that we will not be taken for a ride. After all we are amongst the most expensive football club to watch and we expect to be treated fair and square in return. We must be provided with the quality of entertainment which is the equivalent of what we pay for and nothing less !

Agreed. 7.000-10.000 empty seats is a statement they'd listen to. A packed stadium with a few banners is not.

 

[DEFchenkOE]

A lot of sense being spoken about in this thread.

I am one who was very sceptical about Poch and not really convinced about his credentials to do the job. I was very underwhelmed with the appointment and was more upbeat when Avb was given the job.

Having said that we absolutely have to give him time, our problem during our managerial merry go round is that squad assessment has to be done every time a new man comes in. The only coach we've had with insider knowledge was Sherwood and for all his faults he was right about some things in terms of what he would say about the players.

If results go bad and Levy gets nervous and does what he does best it's square 1 again with a new man having to give the bloated squad more chances before making up his mind.

We absolutely screwed up the Bale millions by signing players that haven't improved the first team bar Eriksen. poch has made some decisions that don't sit right with me at all, Kaboul captain, Europa league starting line-ups, picking Ade, not picking Verts, and waiting too long to make subs. Despite all this though he needs to be given time to weed out the weak players, to realise that Lennon can no longer change the game and needs a new challenge elsewhere. He needs to do better but needs time. He's done some good things like promoting Mason and demoting Paulinho. Could do with looking at more youth players and hopefully he will if here long enough.