The Protecting or Unleashing Talent Debate Thread

[npearl4spurs]

Yesterday marked the 12-year anniversary of Cristiano Ronaldo's completed transfer to Manchester United. I was reminded of this from the Breel Embolo Transfer Rumors thread, where @225 brought up how C Ronaldo successfully moved to a new country and league at 18 and made a huge impact even on his debut with United in the PL, seen below.




This got me thinking a little about a debate that has ebbed and flowed on here for quite some time.

When do you 'protect' and 'develop' your young talent? Conversely, when do you 'unleash' your young talent on the league and go for the biggest development and potential possible? Is one better than the other, or do both avenues eventually lead to the same result?

I think these are really important questions for our team to consider as we embark on this new 'era' of Spurs. The club has invested heavily in talented youth and developing them. We invested heavily in the training center and opened it in 2012 to rave reviews from a host of footballs biggest names and players. Our academy is now respected as one of the best in England and in Europe. We have incorporated many academy players into the first team squad now, including starters Harry Kane, Nabil Bentaleb, Ryan Mason, Danny Rose (signed from Leeds at 17, fits the purpose of this thread) and have found a lot of success with them.

I have seen many SC posters bemoan the transfer policy of our club and how we frequently, and inexplicably, sign a seemingly average level player who eventually just becomes another body in the squad. This blocks potential minutes for our younger academy players hoping to break through. Now, this thread is not about discussing our transfer policy, but it is not to be dismissed lightly for the purposes of this debate. I believe that many of the players we sign are not as talented as the ones we already have in house. Granted, none of our exceptional talents in and around the first team are C Ronaldo, who was and is a once in a generation talent. He arrived at United with an enormous transfer fee and even bigger expectations on his shoulders, especially after being handed Beckham's no.7.

However, are we developing our talent correctly and using it to our fullest advantage? Are we seeing the benefits of never sending Nabil Bentaleb on loan? What have we learned from Kane's rise? It is an impossible question to answer but was he ready to make his impact before he was finally allowed to play in the Premier League, first at the end of 2013-2014 and eventually bursting onto the scene in the fall of 2014?

We have used the loan system a lot over the years to develop our young players to varying degrees of success and failure. The journeys of Harry Kane, Ryan Mason, Danny Rose, Kyle Walker, Tom Carroll and others have been well documented as they have bounced from club to club in the Championship and the Premier League, sometimes succeeding and developing like Danny Rose, Kyle Walker, and Andros Townsend. Nevertheless, our young players' loans were risky and rocky along the way. Harry Kane was called by not too few Leicester City fans as the 'worst player to ever play for the Foxes.' Ryan Mason never played for Lorient in Ligue 1 making the bench just once. Milos Veljkovic, Dominic Ball, and Nathan Oduwa strangely struggled to make appearances for their loaned teams, for various reasons.

I don't want it to seem like I am dismissing the benefits of the loan system. I do, however, want to really examine when loans should and should not occur. Cristiano Ronaldo was never loaned back to Sporting Lisbon after signing for United, nor did he go to develop in the Championship or at another PL team to 'acclimate to English football.' Nabil Bentaleb never went on loan for us and has shown an incredible amount of promise, nailing down a starting spot initially at 19 years old.

It appears as if some of our most talented and highly-rated players to come through in a long time are coming into the first team with little to no loan experience. Dele Alli, after signing last January, only played half a season back at his former club, MK Dons. Joshua Onomah and Harry Winks, two of our brightest prospects in years, seem to be coming into the first team now without any loans.

Should this be the way forward for Tottenham? Should we 'unleash' Onomah into the Premier League, especially with so little depth in the attacking midfield right now? What about Alex Pritchard, who has been called special time and time again with each loan? And with Tom Carroll's transfer seemingly on the horizon, did we make a mistake by not giving him a run in the first team earlier? Did we bury him behind average footballers, or is that something easy to say with the benefit of hindsight?

It is a complicated subject and I am sorry to write such a long post about it. But with the transfer window careening toward its close in September, many of us are nervously watching our Twitter feeds, hoping to see an announcement of a new signing.

But with Alex Pritchard, Dele Alli, Josh Onomah, and Harry Winks waiting to get their chance, and Carroll strangely never getting his, is the exciting football we are all hoping for already training on Hotspur Way every day?

 

[dontcallme]

Too early and close to work time for me to read in full but my view on introducing talent is as follows.

Ronaldo was brought to Utd as a very raw talent. The ability was clear for all to see. But for him to be able to shine at a team challenging for the title he needed experienced heads around him with the right attitude. Having Gary and Phil Neville, Rio Ferdinand, Giggs, Scholes, Keane and Soljkaer means he would have walked into a dressing room that was very professional, dedicated and had the knowledge base to deal with the different challenges facing players.

It was a perfect setup for him.

At the moment we have a huge amount of youngsters but no leaders among the experienced players. Maybe Poch can get them playing with enthusiasm and their desire will pull them through.

I still think we need some really experienced heads to guide the players and ensure the culture at the club is a productive one.

 

[Donki]

@dontcallme has hit the nail on the head, As we know now Ronaldo is a very special player he will go down in history as one of the greatest players to every play, arguably the best ever. There was a lot of factors that made him a success and transition very quickly apart from his talent. He walked into the best team in the league surrounded by great players and also experienced players who had been at the club for most of their careers, you also have to give a lot of credit to Fergie.

While we have young raw talent we don't have that same solid platform to allow them the freedom Ronaldo had.

 

[stewartd]

If they are good enough they are old enough.
Saw Jimmy Greaves at 17 and although I was only a kid at the time he took my breath away.
Problem was he was playing for Chelsea!
The year before he went to Milan they played us over Easter and he destroyed us and also wrecked our title challenge.
Prayed he would one day come to us and my dream came true.
Hoddle and Gazza ( at Newcastle) were also certs to make it.
And in modern times about 3/4 years ago I saw Stirling play for Liverpool yoof against us and told my son he would be a super star.
You will never know how good they are until they are given the chance, hope some of our current crop live up to their expectations , it will be wonderful for us if they do.

 

[BK007]

Where's Veljkovic?

Can't try him instead of Dier?

 

[npearl4spurs]

Where's Veljkovic?

Can't try him instead of Dier?

Yes, I only mentioned Veljkovic once, but I share in the confusion of others as to why he hasn't been given a chance to do a job he seems to have the skills to do better than Eric Dier.

My post really wanted to focus on our next crop that have been identified as being part of the first team squad now. Milos, for some bizarre reason, hasn't seemed to have been afforded that option.

 

[Gbspurs]

Not sure what's going on with Veljkovic tbh. Felt he would be around the team this season.

Re: Ronaldo he was a one on a generation talent so you can't really use him to compare. One thing I will say though is a lot of it is down to mentality not just ability. Kane appears mentally stronger at 21 than Soldado is at 29.

 

[npearl4spurs]

Re: Ronaldo he was a one on a generation talent so you can't really use him to compare. One thing I will say though is a lot of it is down to mentality not just ability. Kane appears mentally stronger at 21 than Soldado is at 29.

Well, that's just the thing. I think Ronaldo has always had that mentality to succeed. That cockiness that he is the best. Here in the States, people always say that Michael Jordan and Kobe Bryant have always had that 'killer' mentality, that willpower to just shape the game to the way they want it to be.

It seems like Alex Pritchard has at least some measure of that swagger about him. I really want him to get his chance - and I think he will soon. Maybe lacking some of that mentality is what has caused Carroll to stunt in his development.

The reason why I am using Ronaldo is because we seem to have players coming through that by many accounts may be approaching the tiers of Ronaldo talent. Onomah, Edwards, and CCV are making big waves for their ages, all around or a little less than Ronaldo.

 

[CowInAComa]

It's fair to say no one saw Bale or Kanes early Spurs performances and thought they would reach the levels they had. Tarrabt looked mustard though

There is no right speed to integrate, thats where you hope to have a manager who can make the right call.

 

[CowInAComa]

Where's Veljkovic?

Can't try him instead of Dier?

Why? What's Dier done wrong to be discarded 90minutes into the season

 

[dontcallme]

Regarding loans, I don't think it is a one size fits all type of a deal.

Some players need to experience the lower leagues to build up some toughness and get regular game time.

Those who are exceptionally good trainers can benefit from, hopefully, our superior coaches.

I think it is important that we don't judge our players on how well they play while on loan. Townsend looked excellent for QPR and seemed ready to play regularly but he has struggled to hold down a place others like Kane and Mason had minimal success in lower leagues but performed well for us.

Settling into a team quickly and performing at your level is difficult for a player so we shouldn't be surprised when good players don't make a huge impact while on loan for half a season or less. It doesn't necessarily mean they aren't ready for the Prem.

There are lots of different ways to develop players but I think the spirit and determination largely comes down to the individual. Whether our young players are currently on loan or in the squad they have an opportunity to make a career for themselves.

 

[npearl4spurs]

There are lots of different ways to develop players but I think the spirit and determination largely comes down to the individual. Whether our young players are currently on loan or in the squad they have an opportunity to make a career for themselves.

Re: this 'Ronaldo' mentality or 'Messi' mentality that the best players have - do you think that is able to be learned or contagious? Do you think any of our players have it? Maybe Kane has a version of it when he steps onto the pitch?

 

[shelfmonkey]

I say 'RELEASE THE KRAKEN ' let him reek havoc and destruction on our foes!!!!!

 

[spursram]

Yesterday marked the 12-year anniversary of Cristiano Ronaldo's completed transfer to Manchester United. I was reminded of this from the Breel Embolo Transfer Rumors thread, where @225 brought up how C Ronaldo successfully moved to a new country and league at 18 and made a huge impact even on his debut with United in the PL, seen below.




This got me thinking a little about a debate that has ebbed and flowed on here for quite some time.

When do you 'protect' and 'develop' your young talent? Conversely, when do you 'unleash' your young talent on the league and go for the biggest development and potential possible? Is one better than the other, or do both avenues eventually lead to the same result?

I think these are really important questions for our team to consider as we embark on this new 'era' of Spurs. The club has invested heavily in talented youth and developing them. We invested heavily in the training center and opened it in 2012 to rave reviews from a host of footballs biggest names and players. Our academy is now respected as one of the best in England and in Europe. We have incorporated many academy players into the first team squad now, including starters Harry Kane, Nabil Bentaleb, Ryan Mason, Danny Rose (signed from Leeds at 17, fits the purpose of this thread) and have found a lot of success with them.

I have seen many SC posters bemoan the transfer policy of our club and how we frequently, and inexplicably, sign a seemingly average level player who eventually just becomes another body in the squad. This blocks potential minutes for our younger academy players hoping to break through. Now, this thread is not about discussing our transfer policy, but it is not to be dismissed lightly for the purposes of this debate. I believe that many of the players we sign are not as talented as the ones we already have in house. Granted, none of our exceptional talents in and around the first team are C Ronaldo, who was and is a once in a generation talent. He arrived at United with an enormous transfer fee and even bigger expectations on his shoulders, especially after being handed Beckham's no.7.

However, are we developing our talent correctly and using it to our fullest advantage? Are we seeing the benefits of never sending Nabil Bentaleb on loan? What have we learned from Kane's rise? It is an impossible question to answer but was he ready to make his impact before he was finally allowed to play in the Premier League, first at the end of 2013-2014 and eventually bursting onto the scene in the fall of 2014?

We have used the loan system a lot over the years to develop our young players to varying degrees of success and failure. The journeys of Harry Kane, Ryan Mason, Danny Rose, Kyle Walker, Tom Carroll and others have been well documented as they have bounced from club to club in the Championship and the Premier League, sometimes succeeding and developing like Danny Rose, Kyle Walker, and Andros Townsend. Nevertheless, our young players' loans were risky and rocky along the way. Harry Kane was called by not too few Leicester City fans as the 'worst player to ever play for the Foxes.' Ryan Mason never played for Lorient in Ligue 1 making the bench just once. Milos Veljkovic, Dominic Ball, and Nathan Oduwa strangely struggled to make appearances for their loaned teams, for various reasons.

I don't want it to seem like I am dismissing the benefits of the loan system. I do, however, want to really examine when loans should and should not occur. Cristiano Ronaldo was never loaned back to Sporting Lisbon after signing for United, nor did he go to develop in the Championship or at another PL team to 'acclimate to English football.' Nabil Bentaleb never went on loan for us and has shown an incredible amount of promise, nailing down a starting spot initially at 19 years old.

It appears as if some of our most talented and highly-rated players to come through in a long time are coming into the first team with little to no loan experience. Dele Alli, after signing last January, only played half a season back at his former club, MK Dons. Joshua Onomah and Harry Winks, two of our brightest prospects in years, seem to be coming into the first team now without any loans.

Should this be the way forward for Tottenham? Should we 'unleash' Onomah into the Premier League, especially with so little depth in the attacking midfield right now? What about Alex Pritchard, who has been called special time and time again with each loan? And with Tom Carroll's transfer seemingly on the horizon, did we make a mistake by not giving him a run in the first team earlier? Did we bury him behind average footballers, or is that something easy to say with the benefit of hindsight?

It is a complicated subject and I am sorry to write such a long post about it. But with the transfer window careening toward its close in September, many of us are nervously watching our Twitter feeds, hoping to see an announcement of a new signing.

But with Alex Pritchard, Dele Alli, Josh Onomah, and Harry Winks waiting to get their chance, and Carroll strangely never getting his, is the exciting football we are all hoping for already training on Hotspur Way every day?

And with Tom Carroll's transfer seemingly on the horizon..

Is there something firming up on this? I cant see any news about it.

 

[npearl4spurs]

And with Tom Carroll's transfer seemingly on the horizon..

Is there something firming up on this? I cant see any news about it.

Check out the 12th August Daily ITK thread, mate. Can't say anymore as I have been warned once already for posting ITK elsewhere in the forum.

 

[nicdic]

I think it's a case by case thing.

Some players need loans, some won't.

Ronaldo is also hardly the right example to be using. He'd made 25 appearances for Porto before joining United, and joined for a hefty price tag. It's completely different to say bringing Onomah into the team, who has never played a competitive first team game, and come through the youth system.

I think we have trust the coaching staff who work with the players each day, and are committed to trying to bring players through. It's clear that Pochettino has been brought in to try and bring through youth players, and he's shown willing. If we think Veljkovic needs to go out on loan then I'll go with the coaching staff. We'll never really know if that is the right thing or not, hindsight doesn't really tell us anything. Mason didn't get games at Lorient, but perhaps it helped to make him the man and the player he is today, forcing him to grow up etc?

There's so much more to it than I think we are ever taking into it.

 

[npearl4spurs]

I think it's a case by case thing.

Some players need loans, some won't.

Ronaldo is also hardly the right example to be using. He'd made 25 appearances for Porto before joining United, and joined for a hefty price tag. It's completely different to say bringing Onomah into the team, who has never played a competitive first team game, and come through the youth system.

I think we have trust the coaching staff who work with the players each day, and are committed to trying to bring players through. It's clear that Pochettino has been brought in to try and bring through youth players, and he's shown willing. If we think Veljkovic needs to go out on loan then I'll go with the coaching staff. We'll never really know if that is the right thing or not, hindsight doesn't really tell us anything. Mason didn't get games at Lorient, but perhaps it helped to make him the man and the player he is today, forcing him to grow up etc?

There's so much more to it than I think we are ever taking into it.

Good post. Ronaldo definitely not the best example at all, as I said, but one that made me think. Being still a relatively new football fan, I had never seen that footage of his debut. I was amazed at how he just hit the ground running and took the Prem by storm.

It makes more sense now that he also had a title-winning team around him already and a Hall of Fame manager.

Hopefully by the time Edwards and CCV are ready for the first team by 19-20 we will have some experienced heads in the squad (and maybe a trophy or two??) to help them adjust and have more confidence.

 

[spursram]

Check out the 12th August Daily ITK thread, mate. Can't say anymore as I have been warned once already for posting ITK elsewhere in the forum.

So its a load of bollocks then!

 

[fuzzylogic]

I think it's a case by case thing.

Some players need loans, some won't.

Ronaldo is also hardly the right example to be using. He'd made 25 appearances for Porto before joining United, and joined for a hefty price tag. It's completely different to say bringing Onomah into the team, who has never played a competitive first team game, and come through the youth system.

I think we have trust the coaching staff who work with the players each day, and are committed to trying to bring players through. It's clear that Pochettino has been brought in to try and bring through youth players, and he's shown willing. If we think Veljkovic needs to go out on loan then I'll go with the coaching staff. We'll never really know if that is the right thing or not, hindsight doesn't really tell us anything. Mason didn't get games at Lorient, but perhaps it helped to make him the man and the player he is today, forcing him to grow up etc?

There's so much more to it than I think we are ever taking into it.

He hadn't made any appearances for Porto, he was signed from sporting

 

[HotspurFC1950]

Great thread thanks OP.

Just one thing I'd like to say is yes the Velkjovic situation is truly baffling

He really stood out at the U 20 Wprld Cup recently as did CCV. If Velkjovic isn't going to break through now I fear for his future with us. Would be good to be a fly on the wall with this one.