The Protecting or Unleashing Talent Debate Thread

[dontcallme]

Re: this 'Ronaldo' mentality or 'Messi' mentality that the best players have - do you think that is able to be learned or contagious? Do you think any of our players have it? Maybe Kane has a version of it when he steps onto the pitch?

I think some players are absolutely determined to get to the top and these guys often make it regardless of whether they start at a lower league club or at the top.

Some players just don't have that mentality and while they might shine temporarily they will never perform at a high level for a prolonged period of time. David Bentley would be the perfect example of this.

But the right atmosphere is really important. Ferguson ensured he had it at Utd. It started with his hair dryer treatment but also bought a lot of teams captains to ensure both the coaches and players with the right attitude dominated the club.

Kane certainly shows this attitude. I think to a lesser extent Rose does too though I believe his potential is considerably lower.

 

[nicdic]

Great thread thanks OP.

Just one thing I'd like to say is yes the Velkjovic situation is truly baffling

He really stood out at the U 20 Wprld Cup recently as did CCV. If Velkjovic isn't going to break through now I fear for his future with us. Would be good to be a fly on the wall with this one.

I'm just guessing but I think there's probably quite a difference in quality from the U20 WC to EPL, or even to the Championship. He has almost zero league experience against men. All of his experience is against similar age groups. He looks good there, granted, but I don't think he's looked good enough to warrant the amount of fuss that people have made recently.

Hopefully he gets his loan this year and can kick on.

 

[beats1]

I think it's a case by case thing.

Some players need loans, some won't.

Ronaldo is also hardly the right example to be using. He'd made 25 appearances for Porto before joining United, and joined for a hefty price tag. It's completely different to say bringing Onomah into the team, who has never played a competitive first team game, and come through the youth system.

I think we have trust the coaching staff who work with the players each day, and are committed to trying to bring players through. It's clear that Pochettino has been brought in to try and bring through youth players, and he's shown willing. If we think Veljkovic needs to go out on loan then I'll go with the coaching staff. We'll never really know if that is the right thing or not, hindsight doesn't really tell us anything. Mason didn't get games at Lorient, but perhaps it helped to make him the man and the player he is today, forcing him to grow up etc?

There's so much more to it than I think we are ever taking into it.

Yea but from the ITK windy got, he was told Poch isn't keen on Veljkovic as doesn't play at high intensity whereas most people who have seen him say he has never needed to play at a high intensity as he is such a good reader of the game.

 

[beats1]

I'm just guessing but I think there's probably quite a difference in quality from the U20 WC to EPL, or even to the Championship. He has almost zero league experience against men. All of his experience is against similar age groups. He looks good there, granted, but I don't think he's looked good enough to warrant the amount of fuss that people have made recently.

Hopefully he gets his loan this year and can kick on.

He has got experience at U21's against a better quality of players than Dier faced before he signed for us and he has done well in his cameo's in the championship. He was very good for middlesbrough in his little cameos

 

[nicdic]

He has got experience at U21's against a better quality of players than Dier faced before he signed for us and he has done well in his cameo's in the championship. He was very good for middlesbrough in his little cameos

He played just over three and half hours for Middlesbrough.

 

[allpaths]

i think this is where europa league can be so handy for us and why im really looking forward to it this year. it gives us a great opportunity to bed youngster in playing somewhat meaningful games against men in the tottenham system. we saw it last year with kane and i expect pritchard, alli, onomah andwinks to all get good run outs and really impress put the same kind of pressure kane put on poch to give them opportunities in the league.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

I'm just guessing but I think there's probably quite a difference in quality from the U20 WC to EPL, or even to the Championship. He has almost zero league experience against men. All of his experience is against similar age groups. He looks good there, granted, but I don't think he's looked good enough to warrant the amount of fuss that people have made recently.

Hopefully he gets his loan this year and can kick on.

He was Captain and his team won the thing. More than Kane, Pritchard etc achieved.

 

[nicdic]

i think this is where europa league can be so handy for us and why im really looking forward to it this year. it gives us a great opportunity to bed youngster in playing somewhat meaningful games against men in the tottenham system. we saw it last year with kane and i expect pritchard, alli, onomah andwinks to all get good run outs and really impress put the same kind of pressure kane put on poch to give them opportunities in the league.

I think Pritchard, Alli, Onomah, and Winks look like they'll get minutes having been included in the first team squad. However with a decent sized squad, people who say Walker-Peters, or Carter-Vickers etc. should get minutes in the Europa or league cup are slightly deluded as the squad players are going to have to play.

He was Captain and his team won the thing. More than Kane, Pritchard etc achieved.

Kane and Pritchard have played significantly more first team football up and down the divisions. A different quality of experience to youth tournaments.

 

[miles_64]

Watching that Ronaldo vid was genuinely exciting. Such raw talent. The buzz around the stadium every time he got the ball... Just like the Bale days for us.

 

[npearl4spurs]

Watching that Ronaldo vid was genuinely exciting. Such raw talent. The buzz around the stadium every time he got the ball... Just like the Bale days for us.

Probably crazy, but I think Pritchard has that capability. Onomah and Edwards too, but we will probably have to wait longer for them.

 

[tototoner]

There is too much results pressure on Premier League managers to take too many risks, although some managers seem to introduce more youth that others.

Ref the buying of squad fillers as they are deemed a financial "bargain" , the likes of Holtby, Stambouli, Chiriches to the detriment of promoting from within is always something that has irked me.

If we do buy someone now they need to have experience to help our young players and they need to be 1st XI quality, not bench warmers, but I fear the rumours of who we are trying to sign doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[NEVILLEB]

One of the reasons Fergie was so successful was that he put a lot of weight on the character of the players he brought in.

This is something we've often struggled to do except under Redknapp.

 

[Bus-Conductor]

I just posted this in the youth thread but I guess it applies here:

We spend several (literally several in many cases) years coaching and teaching a young footballer, investing thousands of hours getting them ready for a chance to fulfil the role we've spent years preparing them for, then when a chance arises, finally, through a serendipitous set of circumstances, when no other senior players are available in the position they've spent all these years learning, what do we do ? We just shuffle someone out of position, to play (usually badly) outside their comfort zone and they are almost never as competent in that makeshift role as the kid we have spent years readying for it.

And though I'd much prefer we buy young players with potential and develop that potential than average journeymen who clearly aren't first team starters or potential to be special for 5-10m plus wages, the irony is we are buying N'Jie because his club were prepared to start giving him some game time aged 17/18 three seasons ago. But if we'd had done that with Pritchard or Ceballos or Falque or we'd have given Oduwa, Onomah and Winks some game time at the end of last season maybe we could have saved ourselves some of the money we are shelling out (or looking to shell out) now.

Trippier looks like a decent lad. But why not just move KWP up to back up start giving him games in the league cup, FA cup, Europa minutes maybe. Of course he's going to make mistakes (I bet they still won't be as big as some of Walker's clusterfucks) but he's going learn. 4-10 games this year, 10-15 next year and in three years time we've got one of the best RB's in the country as first choice maybe.

I am not advocating we do this with every young academy player we have, but when we have ones that clearly show exceptional ability, technical excellence, reasonable tactical nous and the right character we need to stop being scared witless of giving them game time.

And it's not about planting them into the first team full time for 50 games a season, 90 minutes every week, but some minutes here and there, then the odd start, gradually building it up. We need to start being less risk averse in this respect.

 

[beats1]

He played just over three and half hours for Middlesbrough.

Yet despite that was singled out for high praise
“I know what I want to do but I haven’t spoken to the players and I need to speak with them,” Karanka said.

“I am very happy with both of them. Jamal has been unlucky because he’s had a few injuries.

“I am very pleased with Milos. I felt he was the best player on the pitch in the last game.

“He went onto the pitch at a difficult time and he showed everyone he is a mature player, even though he is only 19 years old.”

 

[nicdic]

Yet despite that was singled out for high praise
“I know what I want to do but I haven’t spoken to the players and I need to speak with them,” Karanka said.

“I am very happy with both of them. Jamal has been unlucky because he’s had a few injuries.

“I am very pleased with Milos. I felt he was the best player on the pitch in the last game.

“He went onto the pitch at a difficult time and he showed everyone he is a mature player, even though he is only 19 years old.”

I'm debating whether he played well or not, I'm just stating that it's a tiny sample size.

 

[waresy]

I wonder whether Veljkovic is being given a slightly different programme for the next couple of weeks with his longer summer than many others (not all of course) and being that he hasn't been involved in the PL too much yet we will wait until we start the EL and LC games before we see him nearer the squad.

Having the ability to assess what is best for each individual is a must for the coaches. Many players benefit from loans, others from being chucked straight in both from a physical and mental perspective. Hopefully we get it right more often than not and players can develop in the right way to their best potential.

 

[HotspurFC1950]

I'm just guessing but I think there's probably quite a difference in quality from the U20 WC to EPL, or even to the Championship. He has almost zero league experience against men. All of his experience is against similar age groups. He looks good there, granted, but I don't think he's looked good enough to warrant the amount of fuss that people have made recently.

Hopefully he gets his loan this year and can kick on.

Absolutely baffling. Explanation should in fact be forthcoming but they won't because that's the arrogant way of the world when it comes to the Club and its fans.

 

[nicdic]

Absolutely baffling.

I can write it out phonetically if that will help you mate?

 

[HotspurFC1950]

I can write it out phonetically if that will help you mate?

I was repeating that Veljkovic not being introduced to the first team squad now is absolutely baffling.

 

[SlickMongoose]

Unleash.