The reality of no European football

[fishhhandaricecake]

It might be useful to have a proper update of the pre season squad in that pinned thread.

We start with 29 including Deki, all the players out on loan abroad and 4 keepers but excluding Parrot/Scarlett/Devine/White/Craig/John etc.

Lloris
Forster
Whiteman
Austin
Porro
Spence
Royal
Romero
Sanchez
Tanganga
Dier
Davies
Reguillon
Udogie
Perisic
Sess
Skipp
PEH
Sarr
Bents
Biss
Winks
Deki
Lo Celso
Ndombele
Gil
Richarlison
Son
Gil

That is insane!!! so much trimming needed, also didn't know we'd signed 2 Bryan Gil's and had sold Kane

With no Europe the squad doesn't need to be any bigger than 22 players really, 23 if you want 3 GK's.

 

[St José Dominguez]

That is insane!!! so much trimming needed, also didn't know we'd signed 2 Bryan Gil's and had sold Kane

With no Europe the squad doesn't need to be any bigger than 22 players really, 23 if you want 3 GK's.

City have only used 22 players including GKs and they’ve been involved in a huge amount of games this season.
I think the trimming is even more massive, we could be talking only really needing 18 or 19 players including GKs.

 

[Phil_2.0]

Yeah the key is to have 18-19 good players with some that can play in multiple positions.

City have Bernardo Silva who can play in 6 zones across the pitch, Kevin De Bruyne can play in 8 zones, Kyle Walker can perform 3 different roles as a right side player.

ofc City have some specialists like Dias, Haaland and Rodri but half the squad is made up of good footballers that can take the ball anywhere on the pitch. You can play Foden almost anywhere. Akanji plays anywhere across the back 4. Stones is flexible.

I think Spurs have had coaches that believe in the two players for every position model which is why we have a bloated squad. For instance, do we really all need these CB's for 3 at the back? Could Royal not have slotted into a RCB position and then could we not have sold Tanganga and Sanchez?

If Guardiola had our squad he would use Hojbjerg in a utility role, RCB, RWB and CM. He brought through PEH and used him as a right sided player briefly at Bayern. Bissouma is just a pure footballer, he could easily play in any of the 4-6-8 zones.

18-19 good players with 6 or 7 flexible ones and the rest supplemented by the academy.

 

[muppetman]

Who knows, Sherwood recently said that Levy stuck his nose in when he heard Sherwood was going to play Kane instead of Soldado.

Ah well, if Sherwood says it . . .

 

[Bluto Blutarsky]

If Guardiola had our squad he would use Hojbjerg

I doubt it…

 

[Phil_2.0]

I doubt it…

Quite a decent section in his book 'Pep Confidential' from his time at Bayern that talks about his love of Hojbjerg.

 

[mil1lion]

Poch had a good squad size and that was with champions league. He just needed some better quality in depth. The centre backs for example Foyth and Sanchez at one point seemed ideal to succeed Toby and Jan. It became clear down the line they would not develop to that level which is fine but you must identify that. That's an example of where we've failed to act so by the time Toby and Jan were gone we didn't have suitable replacements. Our succession planning was a real mess and the bench options did not offer enough quality. We had a few who you could argue a case as starters but I think for a few years we had a pretty clear first 11.

We need to clear down the squad and then act quicker when the young potential players don't develop how we like. Keep the first team players competing for their places with young blood fighting to replace them. Once they start to replace the more senior players replace the senior ones with more young potential. They then become the new competition for the new starters and so on. That's generally the cycle I think we need to aim for.

 

[ultimateloner]

Yeah the key is to have 18-19 good players with some that can play in multiple positions.

City have Bernardo Silva who can play in 6 zones across the pitch, Kevin De Bruyne can play in 8 zones, Kyle Walker can perform 3 different roles as a right side player.

ofc City have some specialists like Dias, Haaland and Rodri but half the squad is made up of good footballers that can take the ball anywhere on the pitch. You can play Foden almost anywhere. Akanji plays anywhere across the back 4. Stones is flexible.

I think Spurs have had coaches that believe in the two players for every position model which is why we have a bloated squad. For instance, do we really all need these CB's for 3 at the back? Could Royal not have slotted into a RCB position and then could we not have sold Tanganga and Sanchez?

If Guardiola had our squad he would use Hojbjerg in a utility role, RCB, RWB and CM. He brought through PEH and used him as a right sided player briefly at Bayern. Bissouma is just a pure footballer, he could easily play in any of the 4-6-8 zones.

18-19 good players with 6 or 7 flexible ones and the rest supplemented by the academy.

This sounds great on paper but only works if the players are fundamentally good footballers.

John Stones is a skillful CB who can take the ball on the turn and with the ability to read the game; which is why he can double up as a DM. Pep kicked Hart out pretty quickly when he isn't convinced Hart can improve his ability on the ball.

Therefore when it comes down to it, it's about whether the coach believes the player can adopt and the willingness of the players to do so.

Just sticking with Royal; I can't see him ever having the ability to cover RCB at PL level. He doesn't have the aerial prowness nor the ability on the ball to do so.

Conte is famous for converting Moses to RB so I think it's more to do with whether players can master a new trade good enough for the PL, as opposed to whether coaches can drill it in.

 

[Phil_2.0]

This sounds great on paper but only works if the players are fundamentally good footballers.

John Stones is a skillful CB who can take the ball on the turn and with the ability to read the game; which is why he can double up as a DM. Pep kicked Hart out pretty quickly when he isn't convinced Hart can improve his ability on the ball.

Therefore when it comes down to it, it's about whether the coach believes the player can adopt and the willingness of the players to do so.

Just sticking with Royal; I can't see him ever having the ability to cover RCB at PL level. He doesn't have the aerial prowness nor the ability on the ball to do so.

Conte is famous for converting Moses to RB so I think it's more to do with whether players can master a new trade good enough for the PL, as opposed to whether coaches can drill it in.

Well yes it is about having good footballers that can operate in different positions but you don't have to spend crazy money to do that.

One of the things people have missed during Brighton's rise is that they have a flexible squad. Pascal Gross, Trossard, Veltman, Caicedo are just some of the players that can operate in multiple areas of the pitch.

Arsenal do it extremely well, they bought Zinchenko to not play one specific position they want him to play an area on the pitch and move around. Ben White a similar acquisition. The reason that Arsenal fell apart was because when they had pure injury crisis at CB they had to use a specialist backup in Rob Holding.

Royal can play right of a 3 CB. Aerial prowess? We have just seen Luke Shaw and Martinez play CB in a 4 for Manchester United. You should probably stop thinking about footballers in rigid positions and think about them in areas. Royal playing RCB would mean he just moves 15 yards inside and has a bit more of the ball in his own half. Some of the best moments this season was when Royal would tuck inside in the final third and allow Kulu to go on the outside. Emerson was just an example anyway, there are multiple players in this squad that have been too rigidly used. I hate Eric Dier but his best period of thsi season was when we were chasing the game against Liverpool and he got moved to RCB and was whipping balls in.

 

[stormfly]

We might have to actually buy some players out of their contract. I can’t see us being able to sell a lot of our players. It’s actually making me miss Sunderland being in the Prem

 

[ultimateloner]

Well yes it is about having good footballers that can operate in different positions but you don't have to spend crazy money to do that.

One of the things people have missed during Brighton's rise is that they have a flexible squad. Pascal Gross, Trossard, Veltman, Caicedo are just some of the players that can operate in multiple areas of the pitch.

Arsenal do it extremely well, they bought Zinchenko to not play one specific position they want him to play an area on the pitch and move around. Ben White a similar acquisition. The reason that Arsenal fell apart was because when they had pure injury crisis at CB they had to use a specialist backup in Rob Holding.

Royal can play right of a 3 CB. Aerial prowess? We have just seen Luke Shaw and Martinez play CB in a 4 for Manchester United. You should probably stop thinking about footballers in rigid positions and think about them in areas. Royal playing RCB would mean he just moves 15 yards inside and has a bit more of the ball in his own half. Some of the best moments this season was when Royal would tuck inside in the final third and allow Kulu to go on the outside. Emerson was just an example anyway, there are multiple players in this squad that have been too rigidly used. I hate Eric Dier but his best period of thsi season was when we were chasing the game against Liverpool and he got moved to RCB and was whipping balls in.

You seem to have made up your mind. I would just say that:

1) Martinez and Luke Shaw are much better footballers than Royal. They are good on the ball. Royal is not good on the ball for PL level. He is much better at being a runner as opposed to being a distributor. He is likely to get found out if he plays RCB perm.
2) Eric Dier would make a much better RCB than Royal. Better aerial prowness, and a better user of the ball. However when we are on the backfoot he will be exposed too.
3) It's important to be good on the ball in a 3-CB formation because of the expectation that you play out from the back.
4) To Royal's credit, I wont' put it past him that he can learn and adopt; he seems to have the self belief, mental toughness and work ethic to overcome adversity.

As for rigidity with players; it's hard to be optimistic with their plan B, given their plan A is around PL-average.

 

[G Ron]

What's the snobbery against the EC? Its not different from when you had European Cup, Cup Winners Cup and UEFA Cup. Did we turn our noses up when we were winning them?

That was very different though. For starters you had to win a cup to enter the cup winners cup, you had to win the league to enter the European cup and finish 2nd to qualify for the UEFA cup.
There’s never been a European trophy before whereby you can qualify by finishing 7th in your domestic league (maybe there was - the intertoto).

it’s an awful standard of competition in no way comparable to those other trophies.

 

[MR_BEN]

I think our club is carrying more debt than any of those clubs you mention.

Debt for infrastructure is completely different to debt taken on to run the club and / or survive…

 

[SpursSince1980]

I see it as a silver lining. More time for the new coach to implement his system. More rest for some of the older heads. I think we might all be pleasantly surprised by a bounce back next year. Of course it will be contingent on filling three key positions: GK, LCB, and an AM. All who are immediate starters and upgrades over what we have.

A fully rested Kane and Sonny will be a big difference maker in terms of energy on the field. Looking forward to seeing how the squad embraces Ange. I hope some of those with larger egos are willing to listen and fully commit to AP’s philosophy.

 

[PLTuck]

It couldn't have come at a better time tbh. We need a complete reset, and in particular a reset of our expectations. We need to start a new project, and have needed to ever since the CL final really but went for the quick fixes that made things worse instead.

I remember well when BMJ got us into Europe for the first time in about 20 years and everyone was elated. Now we're turning our noses up at anything less than the CL.

 

[Stuart Leathercock]

Will this help West Ham in any meaningful way? Do you think players are looking at their performance last night and deciding they want to be a part of that? Their star player immediately wants out. Are they winning new fans across the globe? Have seen people in West Ham shirts all over central London today but this will die down and everyone will have forgotten about this come the start of next season. It's a nice bit of fun if you win it but it's not a long term strategy to focus on.

Yes it's a "European trophy" but it's now downgraded what a "European trophy" means. Go back and name me the last five Europa League winners without looking it up. This one is even below that. Nobody outside of East London or Florence will remember anything about this in a year's time.

Yes it will Help them. They are now in the Europa League next year (and I think straight into the group,stages as a top seed?). That might not keep,Declan Rice but it will probably help keep some of their other players, generate good income for the club next season and allow them to attract a better calibre of player when they are spending the Rice money on 2 or 3 players.

 

[Stuart Leathercock]

You seem to have made up your mind. I would just say that:

1) Martinez and Luke Shaw are much better footballers than Royal. They are good on the ball. Royal is not good on the ball for PL level. He is much better at being a runner as opposed to being a distributor. He is likely to get found out if he plays RCB perm.
2) Eric Dier would make a much better RCB than Royal. Better aerial prowness, and a better user of the ball. However when we are on the backfoot he will be exposed too.
3) It's important to be good on the ball in a 3-CB formation because of the expectation that you play out from the back.
4) To Royal's credit, I wont' put it past him that he can learn and adopt; he seems to have the self belief, mental toughness and work ethic to overcome adversity.

As for rigidity with players; it's hard to be optimistic with their plan B, given their plan A is around PL-average.

I disagree with your second point. Royal is far better on the ball than Dier IMO. Dier is slow to control the ball and easily pressed. He can only pick a pass when having lots of time. Unlike Dier, Royal is able to play in tight spaces. I’m also not necessarily convinced that Dier is better in the air, he jumps under the ball far too often when defending crosses. Royal also has far more pace and agility than Dier that could be useful if playing a higher line.

 

[Stuart Leathercock]

Debt for infrastructure is completely different to debt taken on to run the club and / or survive…

Indeed it is but some of those clubs still have higher incomes than us and I expect Everton’s owner will largely fund their new stadium himself, thus keeping their debt lower than ours.

 

[ultimateloner]

I disagree with your second point. Royal is far better on the ball than Dier IMO. Dier is slow to control the ball and easily pressed. He can only pick a pass when having lots of time. Unlike Dier, Royal is able to play in tight spaces. I’m also not necessarily convinced that Dier is better in the air, he jumps under the ball far too often when defending crosses. Royal also has far more pace and agility than Dier that could be useful if playing a higher line.

I don't agree that Royal can play in tight spaces. I don't trust him with the ball. I think he's much better being an option for whoever is on the ball.

Dier isn't great on the ball either but when given time he can deliver. However at PL level it's rare to not get pressed.

Yes Royal can play in a high-line, can't see Dier doing it in any position.

Overall I think Dier is the better footballer. But due to the lack of pace and agility he needs to be accommodated to be able to show that, and we as a team don't have that luxury now.