The Rugby Thread

[talkshowhost86]

England team has been announced:

England team to face Italy

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 64 caps), 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 28 caps), 13 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 8 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 53 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 29 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 40 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 73 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 44 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 89 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 77 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 47 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 14 caps), 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 61 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 59 caps), 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 3 caps).

Finishers
16 Jamie George (Saracens 20 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 19 George Kruis (Saracens 21 caps), 20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 3 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins 76 caps), 22 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 35 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 23 caps).

The most obvious talking points are Te'o at 13 ahead of Josephs, and the England back row.

I'm not convinced by Te'o at 13, but JJ hasn't been having a great season for Bath. If we're going to try it out, then Italy is the game to do it, and it does give us a bit of wallop going forwards which we're lacking from other areas.

As for the back row, I'm pleased it's Lawes instead of Itoje in that back row, and I suspect that whilst certain members of the press (yes you Stuart Barnes) will be up in arms about Robshaw at 7, neither will play as an out and out openside or blindside, so I'm not too concerned. I think Simmons at 8 is good, although his long term future for England will be at 7.

Not quite the same strength in the 'finishers' but still some quality to come on in George, Care and Nowell.

I expect a very stodgy opening 40-50 minutes, with a bit of a late flurry once the Italians get a bit knackered.

Generally though, it looks a stronger team when written down than I thought it might be seeing all the injuries.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Gatland marks his 10th year this weekend. Pretty incredible really, fair play to him.

The last 4 years haven’t been great and over the whole decade he could’ve done better against the SH sides but winning those 2 Grand Slams, a 6N championship and getting Wales to a Semi final in his first 6 years was pretty special.

Our longest serving coach who frustrates at times but in general has been great for us. Will be sad to see him go at the end of of WC next year but the time will be right and if we can get Pivac, Stephen Jones, the rest of the Scarlets coaching Staff with an Adam Jones in there I reckon we can get right back up there with some of the youth coming through. Interesting that he said he thinks a Welshman will find it harder to manage Wales as Wales is such a tribal country which is partly why Pivac is such a great choice. He understands Wales without being Welsh.

In other news Baldwin is out for us now which is not a massive loss though any injuries in the front row we’ll notice.

Yep credit where it's due he's been excellent for Wales.

His teams haven't always been very exciting to watch, and you do wonder what would have happened if Jamie Roberts hadn't been available for most of that 10 year period, but you can't argue that it wasn't effective at times, and the 6Ns results speak for themselves. As you say 3 6N wins including 2 grand slams is a fantastic record, and one that the next coaching team will do very well to emulate.

It's disappointing that they've never been able to do it against the Southern Hemisphere teams whilst England and to a lesser degree Ireland have fronted up a bit better, but ultimately a Welsh coach will be judged mostly on the 6Ns matches and he's got a tremendous record there.

I also think his record has been blemished by his (or maybe the WRFU's) blind spot with regards to Howley. I think if Gatland had been in charge for some of those matches/tournaments where Howley was put in charge then his record would be even better.

It'll be interesting to see where he decides to go after 2019. I'd love to see him coaching in the Premiership.

 

[mpickard2087]

England team has been announced:

England team to face Italy

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 64 caps), 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 28 caps), 13 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 8 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 53 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 29 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 40 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 73 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 44 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 89 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 77 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 47 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 14 caps), 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 61 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 59 caps), 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 3 caps).

Finishers
16 Jamie George (Saracens 20 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 19 George Kruis (Saracens 21 caps), 20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 3 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins 76 caps), 22 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 35 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 23 caps).

The most obvious talking points are Te'o at 13 ahead of Josephs, and the England back row.

I'm not convinced by Te'o at 13, but JJ hasn't been having a great season for Bath. If we're going to try it out, then Italy is the game to do it, and it does give us a bit of wallop going forwards which we're lacking from other areas.

As for the back row, I'm pleased it's Lawes instead of Itoje in that back row, and I suspect that whilst certain members of the press (yes you Stuart Barnes) will be up in arms about Robshaw at 7, neither will play as an out and out openside or blindside, so I'm not too concerned. I think Simmons at 8 is good, although his long term future for England will be at 7.

Not quite the same strength in the 'finishers' but still some quality to come on in George, Care and Nowell.

I expect a very stodgy opening 40-50 minutes, with a bit of a late flurry once the Italians get a bit knackered.

Generally though, it looks a stronger team when written down than I thought it might be seeing all the injuries.

Te'o is in because of the lack of hard carriers, especially without Billy/Hughes. I'd prefer JJ against the tougher teams but this might balance the team better.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Te'o is in because of the lack of hard carriers, especially without Billy/Hughes. I'd prefer JJ against the tougher teams but this might balance the team better.

Yup that is presumably the logic as we don't have much ball carrying elsewhere in the team.

Mind you we're not going to for most of the tournament so let's hope it works.

 

[E17yid]

England team has been announced:

England team to face Italy

15 Mike Brown (Harlequins 64 caps), 14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby 28 caps), 13 Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors 8 caps), 12 Owen Farrell (Saracens 53 caps), 11 Jonny May (Leicester Tigers 29 caps), 10 George Ford (Leicester Tigers 40 caps), 9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers 73 caps), 1 Mako Vunipola (Saracens 44 caps), 2 Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints 89 caps), 3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers 77 caps), 4 Joe Launchbury (Wasps 47 caps), 5 Maro Itoje (Saracens 14 caps), 6 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints 61 caps), 7 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins 59 caps), 8 Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs 3 caps).

Finishers
16 Jamie George (Saracens 20 caps), 17 Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs, uncapped), 18 Harry Williams (Exeter Chiefs, 5 caps), 19 George Kruis (Saracens 21 caps), 20 Sam Underhill (Bath Rugby 3 caps), 21 Danny Care (Harlequins 76 caps), 22 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby 35 caps), 23 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs 23 caps).

The most obvious talking points are Te'o at 13 ahead of Josephs, and the England back row.

I'm not convinced by Te'o at 13, but JJ hasn't been having a great season for Bath. If we're going to try it out, then Italy is the game to do it, and it does give us a bit of wallop going forwards which we're lacking from other areas.

As for the back row, I'm pleased it's Lawes instead of Itoje in that back row, and I suspect that whilst certain members of the press (yes you Stuart Barnes) will be up in arms about Robshaw at 7, neither will play as an out and out openside or blindside, so I'm not too concerned. I think Simmons at 8 is good, although his long term future for England will be at 7.

Not quite the same strength in the 'finishers' but still some quality to come on in George, Care and Nowell.

I expect a very stodgy opening 40-50 minutes, with a bit of a late flurry once the Italians get a bit knackered.

Generally though, it looks a stronger team when written down than I thought it might be seeing all the injuries.

Obviously you’ll beat Italy but they can get at your front row. Cole is pretty crap, sorry, has to be said. Vunipola isn’t the greatest scrummager. Also thought he should go With George (along with the rest of the world) but I guess everyone knew he’d be playing Hartley.

Te’o lacks match fitness but he showed on the Lions tour what a good line breaker he was and I’m sure he wouldn’t be starting if he hadn’t trained well.

Can’t wait for the weekend now.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Obviously you’ll beat Italy but they can get at your front row. Cole is pretty crap, sorry, has to be said. Vunipola isn’t the greatest scrummager. Also thought he should go With George (along with the rest of the world) but I guess everyone knew he’d be playing Hartley.

Te’o lacks match fitness but he showed on the Lions tour what a good line breaker he was and I’m sure he wouldn’t be starting if he hadn’t trained well.

Can’t wait for the weekend now.

I think Cole used to be excellent, but he doesn't have that dominance in the scrum anymore and doesn't really offer anything outside of that.

Sinckler is the normal alternative but he's injured (and not playing that well it has to be said).

As for Mako his scrummaging is better than people make out, but you wouldn't want to rely on it too heavily in a particularly attritional game.

Fortunately I don't think England will be doing too much in the way of attrition. We've got the backs to do some damage, so hopefully we'll be trying to get it out of the set-pieces fairly quickly anyway.

 

[E17yid]

Yep credit where it's due he's been excellent for Wales.

His teams haven't always been very exciting to watch, and you do wonder what would have happened if Jamie Roberts hadn't been available for most of that 10 year period, but you can't argue that it wasn't effective at times, and the 6Ns results speak for themselves. As you say 3 6N wins including 2 grand slams is a fantastic record, and one that the next coaching team will do very well to emulate.

It's disappointing that they've never been able to do it against the Southern Hemisphere teams whilst England and to a lesser degree Ireland have fronted up a bit better, but ultimately a Welsh coach will be judged mostly on the 6Ns matches and he's got a tremendous record there.

I also think his record has been blemished by his (or maybe the WRFU's) blind spot with regards to Howley. I think if Gatland had been in charge for some of those matches/tournaments where Howley was put in charge then his record would be even better.

It'll be interesting to see where he decides to go after 2019. I'd love to see him coaching in the Premiership.

Agree with all of that. Especially the Howley point.

I would say I don’t really wonder what it would’ve been like without Roberts coz as you say he was great for us and extremely effective. It’s all about utilising the talent that is emerging at the time and adapting your game to suit said talents game.

I feel sorry for Roberts, great player albeit a bit 1 dimensional but he does that one dimension extremely welll. He gets branded as past it (which kind of isn’t far off) but he’s only 30-31 personally I still think he had something to offer but the game is constantly evolving and has moved on from 10 years ago but I’ve always loved the big ball carrying 12s ever since I was in awe of watching Ma’a Nonu for the first time.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Agree with all of that. Especially the Howley point.

I would say I don’t really wonder what it would’ve been like without Roberts coz as you say he was great for us and extremely effective. It’s all about utilising the talent that is emerging at the time and adapting your game to suit said talents game.

I feel sorry for Roberts, great player albeit a bit 1 dimensional but he does that one dimension extremely welll. He gets branded as past it (which kind of isn’t far off) but he’s only 30-31 personally I still think he had something to offer but the game is constantly evolving and has moved on from 10 years ago but I’ve always loved the big ball carrying 12s ever since I was in awe of watching Ma’a Nonu for the first time.

What I meant was that Gatland's game has largely been about that crash-ball approach so he was relatively lucky that he had one of the best in the game to do that in his teams. But as you say he used him very well.

I think it's noticeable that Wales' results have dimmed a bit as they've moved away from that style as that's always been Gatland's preferred style. Will be interesting to see how he adapts in the build up to the World Cup though. He's clearly a good enough coach to get the best out of players, but it will be a slight departure for him to be using a more expansive team so will be compelling viewing.

As for Roberts, he is certainly one-dimensional but as you say he was absolutely brilliant at it for a very long time.

I think centres now do need to do a lot more, and he doesn't really have that in his locker, but I would say that he's been much much better for Quins this season. He does a very important role protecting Marcus Smith, and he's started making metres again with his carries which is great to see.

Sadly I think he'll be going back to Wales at the end of this season...just as we're starting to get some of our money's worth!

 

[E17yid]

What I meant was that Gatland's game has largely been about that crash-ball approach so he was relatively lucky that he had one of the best in the game to do that in his teams. But as you say he used him very well.

I think it's noticeable that Wales' results have dimmed a bit as they've moved away from that style as that's always been Gatland's preferred style. Will be interesting to see how he adapts in the build up to the World Cup though. He's clearly a good enough coach to get the best out of players, but it will be a slight departure for him to be using a more expansive team so will be compelling viewing.

As for Roberts, he is certainly one-dimensional but as you say he was absolutely brilliant at it for a very long time.

I think centres now do need to do a lot more, and he doesn't really have that in his locker, but I would say that he's been much much better for Quins this season. He does a very important role protecting Marcus Smith, and he's started making metres again with his carries which is great to see.

Sadly I think he'll be going back to Wales at the end of this season...just as we're starting to get some of our money's worth!

Yeah I heard he’s in good form at the moment for Quins.

The thing that doesn’t sit right with me re Roberts is that we’re playing Parkes who’s barely been in Wales long enough to qualify and is only a year or 2 younger than Roberts. He’s got a bit more to his game but not so much that I think he’s a shoo in over Roberts.

Personally speaking if we’ve decided Roberts is no more ( though you could be right he could be back at Wales as he’s been told the doors not closed) then we should be developing Watkin as he looks a great prospect.

I reserve the right to go back on this post if Parkes has another game like he did against SA.

 

[talkshowhost86]

Yeah I heard he’s in good form at the moment for Quins.

The thing that doesn’t sit right with me re Roberts is that we’re playing Parkes who’s barely been in Wales long enough to qualify and is only a year or 2 younger than Roberts. He’s got a bit more to his game but not so much that I think he’s a shoo in over Roberts.

Personally speaking if we’ve decided Roberts is no more ( though you could be right he could be back at Wales as he’s been told the doors not closed) then we should be developing Watkin as he looks a great prospect.

I reserve the right to go back on this post if Parkes has another game like he did against SA.

Well Parkes is part of an issue I don't agree with generally in rugby at the moment.

Don't get me started on Bundi O'Ake and CJ O'Stander (plus the countless 'English' examples over the years).

 

[teok]

That's a really workmanlike england team. Our back row is terrible, itoje is great but he isn't a flanker.

 

[E17yid]

That's a really workmanlike england team. Our back row is terrible, itoje is great but he isn't a flanker.

It’s Lawes st Blindside. Itoje stays in 2nd row.

 

[talkshowhost86]

That's a really workmanlike england team. Our back row is terrible, itoje is great but he isn't a flanker.

Bit much to say it's terrible.

Robshaw has been magnificent for England ever since giving up the captaincy, and Simmonds has been fantastic this season with both his ball-carrying and his work over the ball. We miss Billy yes, but certainly too much to say it's terrible.

As for Itoje, England seem to have nominally put Lawes at 6 and Itoje at 5 so I'm hoping they stick to that, because I agree it's at lock where Itoje does his best work.

 

[E17yid]

Baring in mind England have got quite a few injuries, to be able to call on George, Kruis and Underhill in the forwards and Joseph and Nowell in the backs goes to show the strength in depth England have. I appreciate some of those players aren’t in the best form but the step up to international level can help focus the mind I’m sure. Lawes needs to find some form too, tbf.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Baring in mind England have got quite a few injuries, to be able to call on George, Kruis and Underhill in the forwards and Joseph and Nowell in the backs goes to show the strength in depth England have. I appreciate some of those players aren’t in the best form but the step up to international level can help focus the mind I’m sure. Lawes needs to find some form too, tbf.

When I've seen Lawes playing in a less-than-successful Northampton team lately he's been outstanding.

 

[E17yid]

When I've seen Lawes playing in a less-than-successful Northampton team lately he's been outstanding.

Not when I’ve seen him he hasn’t. He certainly hasn’t been terrible but outstanding is definitely pushing it. A lot of this is based on 1 game against Ospreys though and TBF he was up against the best in the biz in the Beast that is AWJ

 

[talkshowhost86]

Baring in mind England have got quite a few injuries, to be able to call on George, Kruis and Underhill in the forwards and Joseph and Nowell in the backs goes to show the strength in depth England have. I appreciate some of those players aren’t in the best form but the step up to international level can help focus the mind I’m sure. Lawes needs to find some form too, tbf.

When I've seen Lawes playing in a less-than-successful Northampton team lately he's been outstanding.

Yeah I'm with Mr Too on this one. Lawes has been excellent this season despite his team playing like a rabid bunch of disorganised mongeese (mongooses?) for the majority of the season.

Kruis is the one who's been in very poor form for one reason or another (doesn't ever seem to have recovered for that bad game he had for the Lions). But as you say E17 he's got bags on international experience and I'd be happy to see him sort his issues out at international level.

I'm not sure about Underhill as an impact sub. I'm all for people tackling with their faces, but when a game opens up you might want someone a bit more mobile.

Nowell and JJ are pretty dangerous once the game gets open though, and Danny Care has been superb this season and is presumably only not starting because he's more likely to have an impact in the latter stages than the ponderous Youngs.

 

[E17yid]

Yeah I'm with Mr Too on this one. Lawes has been excellent this season despite his team playing like a rabid bunch of disorganised mongeese (mongooses?) for the majority of the season.

Kruis is the one who's been in very poor form for one reason or another (doesn't ever seem to have recovered for that bad game he had for the Lions). But as you say E17 he's got bags on international experience and I'd be happy to see him sort his issues out at international level.

I'm not sure about Underhill as an impact sub. I'm all for people tackling with their faces, but when a game opens up you might want someone a bit more mobile.

Nowell and JJ are pretty dangerous once the game gets open though, and Danny Care has been superb this season and is presumably only not starting because he's more likely to have an impact in the latter stages than the ponderous Youngs.

I think by Lawes’ own admission he’s not been great this season. I might be making that up though.

Yeah, 4 Lions on the bench at the end of the day. Impressive.

You’re right about Underhill it’s not just his age (younger players will inevitably find it a bit harder to make an impact off the bench) but Underhill is a 80min player, that’s when you’ll get the best out of him.

Maybe this is what Gatland was thinking having Tips on the bench (though him not being in tip top shape has probably influenced it) Shingler wouldn’t be the best impact sub but Tipuric feet and hands coming off the bench if we’re a score or 2 down would be a better option. Tipuric would start every game for me though even if half fit.

 

[Arnoldtoo]

Danny Care has been superb this season and is presumably only not starting because he's more likely to have an impact in the latter stages than the ponderous Youngs.

I would throw out there that we've got 6 days before playing Wales, and it wouldn't surprise me to see Care start that one after stretching his legs for half an hour against a tiring Italian team.

 

[E17yid]

I would throw out there that we've got 6 days before playing Wales, and it wouldn't surprise me to see Care start that one after stretching his legs for half an hour against a tiring Italian team.

Davies will have him in his pocket.

I said at the time that Gareth deserved that call up to the lions but because that whole thing was a joke people didn’t think Davies was worthy but he’s the 3rd best Scrum half in the home nations (after Webb and Murray of course)